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Do the genre suck now or is it the players?

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by GhostCow, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

    GhostCow
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    Ever since WoW came out and became extremely popular I've had a theory. The first MMORPG that a person plays will be their biggest love and no other MMO afterwards will fully satisfy them. My first MMORPG was Everquest. The first time I played it was in 2002 and the last time I played it was 2019. I've played every major release between those years and a handful of obscure ones as well. No other MMORPG has been able to take hold of me like that. My record for longest time in an MMO other than EQ is the 6 months I spent leading a guild in Shadowbane.

    Surely not every single MMORPG released since 2001 is garbage? It has to be me, right?
     
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  2. lukaszek the determinator

    lukaszek
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    tibia was perfection
     
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  3. Alexander DeLarge Savant

    Alexander DeLarge
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    Both. The communities suck because the people playing this shit have gotten 15+ years of the same thing not knowing any better and the mechanics reinforce a lot of the problems with the genre.
     
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  4. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    Yes. Everything is shit. It's been shit ever since they created graphical decline and moved away from MUDs.
     
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  5. Ol'man Novice

    Ol'man
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    It's not you and there were some good ones, but the lure of a "theme park" approach to mmorpgs, focus on a single player experience, and the apeing of WoW has left the genre stale, samey feeling, lacking in innovation, and a playerbase that has grown accustomed to all of the above.
     
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  6. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    The players always sucked. They're other humans after all.
     
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  7. taxalot I'm a spicy fellow. Patron

    taxalot
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    Codex 2013 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
    Massively single player games.
     
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  8. Fishy Learned

    Fishy
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    Both. The players are a lost cause, so game design has evolved to cater to that. UO sold us a paper dream, and we set it on fire. We deserve everything we got since.
     
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  9. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
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    Then the huehues came in and looted the place, as is their nature. :decline:
     
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  10. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

    GhostCow
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    I made the mistake of backing Crowfall a while back. The big patch that finally brings it into the beta phase is supposed to drop next month. My fingers are crossed that I can enjoy it as much as I did Shadowbane but my expectations are pretty low
     
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  11. Gregz Arcane

    Gregz
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    I played Everquest in 2001 and it was the love of my MMO life, until I played WoW. WoW is just better in every measurable way, until Cataclysm and the subsequent garbage xpacs Blizzard introduced.

    [​IMG]

    There are/were about ~100 MMOs released so far. Many of them, like EVE Online, World of Tanks, and RuneScape, still have a loyal following.

    So, I don't think your theory holds. I've played numerous MUDs and MMORPGs, and I've gone back to playing WoW Classic as of August. It's the Cadillac of MMORPGs, it's just peerless unless you crave something really different like EVE or World of Tanks.
     
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  12. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

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    There's always a few outliers but you're the first one I've ever met. Personally I thought WoW was shit because I'd rather camp mobs than do a bunch of boring quests. I only did questing in EQ for gear.
     
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  13. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    I don't really see the logic of why you would BACK anything. These aren't good investments. They aren't even BAD investments, you're essentially giving the devs free money while they give you nothing. That isn't an investment at all, that's just pissing the money away.
     
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  14. Gregz Arcane

    Gregz
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    I hate camp contention.
     
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  15. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

    GhostCow
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    I was really bored that day needed something to play

    That's what makes the world feel alive my dude. I'd rather fight over camps than be sectioned off into instances or doing some other kind of instanced content
     
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  16. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
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    No, thats how they attempt to pad playtime by being ineffective by doing same boring mob rotation for FUCKING DAYS ... I REMEMBER DESERT FOGANS!

    The PvP adds no value because either you wasting time by NOT getting XP by fighting other people over that XP so you can move on to go farm XP on some other location or if you are into PvP what the fuck are doing farming mobs to begin? Mob farming is always on the scale of difficulty/time/XP so you dont fight something that can kill you if you mess up, have to die relatively fast and more important, cannot be a fucking waste of time by giving shite XP per kill. There is nothing feeling alive when some douchebag goes killing you because he knows that area is the best XP ratio for your level and he massively outlevels and gears you, that just makes it a fucking waste of time for me as anyone with effectiveness in mind.

    Quests were done because if you want PvP, go play a PvP game were at least there is SOME resemblance of balance so its not a one-sided curbstomp and if you want SOME variety on what the fuck you are killing at least Quests provide enough XP so you dont spend like oh SIX FUCKING HOURS KILLING DESERT FOGANS! to gain a FUCKING LEVEL!

    Instances, I will agree on that because it does make the game feel empty ... Instances will always exist because its not as if the game can handle 10k people at the same area at once, when the lightshow starts on World Bosses you start to notice a *slight* performance drop even if there are just like 60 other players there so that is unavailable, plus balance issues since when creating a dungeon you create it around players being around X level and also only being 4-6 players, more and it becomes too easy. I think the whole "I am against instances" is honestly stupid because there are often good reasons to have then and doesnt turn it into a single player game because you dont have 4 FPS trying to render 600 players in the main hub.
     
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  17. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

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    I wasn't talking about PvP here. I meant the general bitching and drama that comes with playing Everquest and raid guilds poopsocking all the raid mobs :lol:

    In a PvP game I actually find this really fun. If some douche is pking you then you have options. There's always a bunch of white knights running around calling themselves "anti-pkers". They'll usually help you for free. You could also gather an army of noobs and treat the PKer like a raid mob or hire some people to be your guards. I find that realistic and fun, not to mention community building, but to each their own. I know there are different aspects of realism that different people enjoy in their games.

    If you're worried about effectiveness and how quickly you can level you are the kind of gamer that modern MMOs are built for and I hate it. No one thought like that back in the day. It used to be about the journey and finding what role you want to play in the world. Not rushing to max level.

    There's an easy solution to this. Just have multiple servers. If a server gets too populated then do a server split. There are issues with that too but those issues are less shitty than the ones that come with instances. You might as well be playing a single player game or a 6 player coop game if you want instanced dungeons and shit. MMORPGs to me should be about a living breathing world that everyone is in at the same time. If your computer is too shitty to handle a bunch of people on screen there are plenty of MMOs that cater to that. I don't see why there can't be at least one for us oldschool guys with good PCs.


    While we're on the subject I just want to rant a little about my dream MMORPG. I've never seen an MMO that does both PvP and PvE well in the same game. I don't think that what I'm about to describe has been done but maybe it's because I'm missing something. I don't see why we can't have an MMORPG that's balanced for PvP with the PvE built around that balancing once it's done. Darkfall had great PvP and so did Shadowbane but both games put too much on the players making the content and had very little in the way of world building. I don't see why we can't have a PvP game with a world that feels as alive and lived in as Everquest. Why can't a PvP game still have major NPC cities and NPCs that run around doing daily routines like EQ or Gothic? Quests can be fun as long as they aren't the main source of progression. EQ had some XP quests that we worth doing, but it wasn't the main way to progress. There was always something else to do if you were tired of camping mobs.

    You can't make a game that's just for pkers. You have to entice the carebears to play so the pkers have victims. That's what made UO great from what I hear (UO was before my time).
     
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  18. InD_ImaginE Arcane Patron

    InD_ImaginE
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    The best MMORPG I've ever played is Ragnarok Online which is insanely grindy Korean MMO.

    What makes the game fun wasn't just the content (monsters design are cool, there are some lore if you want to dig for them, Guild vs Guild was fun), but what makes the game fun was the fact I was playing it with people I know in real life, that would talk together about the game. Its the sense of community I guess. Playing the game today, even with fresh old patch server doesn't feel the same because the game was fun for me due to sense of playing together with people you are close with. Now when I logged in I got strangers I don't care about and the sense of joy is gone.

    The reason old WoW would feels good was because at the state the game was released it was a cooperative game where communication is forced. It creates a sense of community. Later WoW patch reduces this more and more making playing SP more convenient.

    Thing is, for people with active guilds, the game is still probably fun even on BfA because sense of community is there. On my last year of college me and 6 other friends decided to play MoP on Tauri Private Server, and really who gives a fuck about "RDF ruining everything" or whatever. I play with people I know discussing and playing a fun game. On the same vein playing a Classic server where most of the activity is spamming LFG until you get into a group with 4 older players who have played and read guides about the raid because the game was released 15 years ago would probably as fun as playing with randos in RDF.
     
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  19. what am i doing Prophet

    what am i doing
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    I think it's partly the genre, partly the players, and partly the changes that the Internet has undergone since the glory days of MMOs. Obviously the games themselves aren't as good as they used to be. And obviously the player base has gotten a lot worse and overrun with achievement drones (see below). But I think one of the biggest problems is that information is available more freely now, when it wasn't before. Sure, your average MMO player tended to know their way around the Internet - but comprehensive documentation about every detail of a game, all the meta builds, etc, just wasn't really built up back in those days. The concept of a wiki for everything hadn't taken off yet. So there was a lot more exploration and experimentation and build variety. Now everyone can just look up an exact guide on what to do to win. This has affected all video games, of course, but I think MMOs got hit particularly hard by it because a big part of them was people coming together to explore and experiment and discover things, and that's not really there anymore to the same extent.

    With meta builds so easily available there's also far less tolerance for players trying out new things, everyone in your party has to be running whatever's meta (even if what's meta isn't actually what's optimal).

    Note on achievement drones: according to Bartle taxonomy there are four kinds of MMO players: killers, explorers, socializers, and achievers. In my opinion killers (PvP) and explorers (PvE) are the prestigious players who make MMOs great, socializers are just "there" but of course it's important to have lots of them to pad out a player base (and they're often good company) but achievers are the mindless item / title grinder types. In the past they had to at least think for themselves a bit but now they just read a wiki and slavishly follow instructions to max out their skinner box rewards. They are cancer unto any party as they will demand fun be avoided for the sake of efficient grind maximization, and they are becoming a larger part of gaming as a whole, but MMOs feel the sting particularly harshly. If you want a good MMO you should design it in a way that will alienate achievers so they can't ruin the damn game for everyone else. Horizontal progression and skill-based combat are good ways of doing this. Often if an achiever reads the words "low level cap" he will fuck right off and never even buy the game, and the community is better off for it. Open world PvP is another great means of dealing with achievers as it means that killers (peace be upon them) will be able to interrupt their grinding by murdering them repeatedly until they leave.
     
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  20. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    Explorers aren't really neatly categorizable as PvE like that. The group that is actually the core PvE base are the achievers you malign. They're the ones who want to conquer all the PvE stuff, get the best loot, etc. Explorers are your theorycrafters and dataminers, who may or may not put what they dig up into practice, but won't ever do so with the fervor that Killers and Achievers will. Achievers love trophies: They'll grind a thing over and over, each time trying to best their previous record. An Explorer won't do this: He'll come up with a new paradigm, put it to the test and blow the previous record out of the water, and then having seen what he wanted to see out of it, go find something else to do while the Achievers will then copy the method and push the envelope on that particular paradigm, until the Explorers come up with a new one.

    Killers hate Explorers. For the core Killer, fighting an Explorer is something they see as unsatisfying because Explorers, in their eyes, cheat. Explorers rarely bother to enter the PvP arenas unless they have some theory to test, and so killing one doesn't really provide a satisfying experience to a Killer because the Explorers don't fight back sufficiently, nor get particularly upset, while they have this unpleasant tendency to pull out some non-standard surprise that suddenly kills them, something that Killers may see as cheap, unskilled, or unfair. Explorers in PvPs tend to fight using mechanical trickery and rules exploits, and Killers HATE that. A Killer-Explorer tends to be known as a Cheesemaster, the kind of people who discover and perfect the usage of the fromage in all of its cheesy goodness.

    Read: The CASUALS and the ERPists.

    Yeah, that's not how it works. In a sustainable game, you sort of need a community of all of them. Allowing any one group to become too dominant will set off a death spiral that dooms the game.

    No, no, that's a failure state in the game. Achievers are the natural prey of the Killers in an Open PvP environment. If all of the prey gets wiped out, the killers will soon become bored and leave. Killers like to murder Achievers, because Achievers are typically well-equipped and put up a decent fight, but ultimately not tuned with the mindset to win, and dislike being killed enough to grant a level of satisfaction to killing them. Achievers in such an environment regard Killers as a sort of challenge, that adds some level of weight to the achievement process, but too many will ultimately drive them away and cause a death spiral. There's a sort of natural predator-prey relationship between Killers and Achievers.
     
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  21. InD_ImaginE Arcane Patron

    InD_ImaginE
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Killers are a waste of everyone time and should be banned.

    Look that the other 3 archtypes doesn't need killer to exist.
     
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  22. KeighnMcDeath Arbiter

    KeighnMcDeath
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    Grinding or Questing? Grinding Quest? or just PVP everything from the start (though how many pvps do you level up by killing other players? ... just loot their bodies?)
     
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  23. Morality Games Arcane Patron

    Morality Games
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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    It can be both.

    Any genre that exists for the specific goal of wasting your time fundamentally sucks though.
     
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  24. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    That covers the entire "life" genre, yes. Life is just there to waste your time.
     
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  25. GhostCow ワイフハンター Patron

    GhostCow
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    Norfleet seems to really get it. He very well articulated what I've been thinking for years. You really need a game that attracts all kinds of players. As a killer I need prey.

    This here is what we call a carebear folks. The best kind of prey. Their butthurt is delicious when you kill them
     
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