Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

What modes should we play?


  • Total voters
    66
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
Yeah but were they that desperate for a carry player that they would re-enlist him? Maybe they felt that since he was playing the carry role he didn't have to be as communicative, but that's pretty far from the truth.

Seems pretty hilarious to keep bouncing the dude around like that.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
Yeah but were they that desperate for a carry player that they would re-enlist him? Maybe they felt that since he was playing the carry role he didn't have to be as communicative, but that's pretty far from the truth.

Seems pretty hilarious to keep bouncing the dude around like that.

Yeah I dont know why they do that or why he lets them do it to him. In general I dont like all the shuffling would be great if they aim for more and longer team stability in general.
 

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,340
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Well LGD kinda had to see it coming, banning out doom themselves so they could guard their huskar pick, and vici already had disruptor. Those two are arguable the best counters to Slark, to the point where picking slark when the opponent has either one of them is almost a waste already.

As far as Aui is concerned, with his performance not only during the major but leading up to it he has to realize that he just isn't good enough to keep his position when options are available. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes over the coaching position though.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
It's amazing how much weight Black lost since the old mouz days. Looking sharp in a suit instead of being a fat pimplefaced slob.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Is there any Codex Dota steam group? I just got back into the game recently, with a new steam account, and am looking for more bros to play with, as most of my irl friends dislike D2 and would rather play LoL instead.
Yah is there? Anyone from Europe wanna play?
 

Wulfstand

Prophet
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
2,209
Feel free to add me too, guys. Since my steam account is currently level 0 (my former one got compromised), adding people is pretty difficult.

By the way, how the hell do I constantly get pakistani, iranians and russians in my eu-west server games?
 

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,048
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
OG is definitely the team that's the most fun to watch right now.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
Yeah, OG is great. The fact that Miracle doesn't tilt like Arteezy or Sumail after getting repeatedly ganked by 3-4 people on the opposing team is amazing. He just keeps his calm, continues to create space and trusts his carry to pick up the slack - and eventually he makes a recovery and owns. He's an amazing player.

This is seriously the most high level Dota tournament I've seen so far. The plays are awesome.

edit: OG in the grand finals!
 
Last edited:

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,340
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Well played by OG. Only thing I don't really like about them is that they are basically getting carried by miracle- and cr1t every single game, with top-notch strategy coming out of fly/fckingmad. In the meantime the other 3 players are t2 at best, notail has gotten quite a lot better during manila but he's still nowhere near other carries. It usually shows in the games that they drop that sometimes the 2-man show just isn't enough.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
n0tail played just fine on the naga in the last game vs lgd. He's pretty active most times but he knew how to switch it up and rice nonstop as the enemy spent every resource on ganking miracle.

keep in mind that he's a veteran and has been playing at the highest competitive level for many years now - from way back in fnatic HoN. by the way, he played carry there, too.
 

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,340
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Notail mostly played mid in HoN, most commonly known for his Pebbles/Pollywog. As I said before he has improved a lot on the carry role but even in that naga game, where he had basically uncontested farm for the majority of the game, his team was already winning 4v5 and he had very little to actually "carry". Whenever his team falls behind and sorta relies on him to pick up the slack he rarely is able to, which is of course partly because miracle- ist just so much more efficient at farming and takes a big part of the cake that notail should be farming in the first place. There obviously is very little reason for him to do so since miracle is much more skilled individually and mechanically.

Cr1t almost did as much damage on his ET in that last game vs newbee as notail did on his lycan. Compare that to the matchup earlier today, where aggressif went nuclear on his lycan vs MVP, and you can see the difference. I'm not hating on notail here specifically, I just cannot get behind a team that consistently gets carried by their superior drafting/strategy and the same 2 players every single game.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
The whole point of an afk ricing carry is to ensure the lategame - see, it's the same situation with an Antimage, for example. In your run-of-the-mill Antimage game, your team has to win 4v5 or at least not lose 4v5 for 30 minutes, and then you can start participating in fights. It might seem like a pointless thing, but power shifts in Dota are pretty much the most important thing in the game; if the opponent power shift (like, for instance, pushing high ground) comes and your team doesn't have an answer for it, then you lose the game. The answer to a power shift is a well-itemized, powerful carry.

Picking up the slack on the carry is only possible if your team allows you space - and that's precisely one of the reasons why Miracle is so good, and better than Sumail or Arteezy; he doesn't just soak up farm, he sets the pace and creates space while also farming like a monster.

I think all players in OG are very good. Moon is a great aggressive offlaner, etc. Fly is maybe not so great but his synergy with n0tail makes up for it. There's more to a good team than superlative individual player skill.
 

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,340
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I agree on the first and second part. I do not think that every player in OG plays very well though. Moons aggressiveness is exactly why I think he is one of the worst offlaners in a top-tier team, because he generally dies once or twice on the offlane every single game, occasionally getting something out of it when the opponent makes the mistake to overcommit. None of that is intentional though, he is way too inconsistent to have any method to it. The only reason he manages to stay relevant after usually losing his lard so hard that he cannot even lane anymore is thanks to Iron Talon. Fuck that item in the ass, seriously. His heropool is basically limited to heroes that have the option to utilize Iron Talon (Slardar, Void, Beastmaster) or are generally great at jungling once they hit at least level 2/3 (Bat, DS, Tide, again Beastmaster). And he almost always has to because his laning is one of the weakest out of any of the offlaners out there. If it weren't for IT, you could just outdraft OG based off of that. He is way too slow to adapt to new heroes, thankfully this patch around he doesn't have to.
Fly on the other hand usually gets easy to play defensive supports, which doesn't really matter because cr1t is just so beastly on whatever roaming support you give him. Compare him to most other pos 5s and he falls short by quite a large margin though when it comes to gameplay itself. He does the drafting and OG always manages to get a very knowledgeable coach too, so he certainly influences the outcome of the game in other ways.
Notail is just the silent type in terms of gameplay, never even trying to outplay his opponents which makes him a better player than say rtz or envy who usually try to do stuff by themselves when they feel like they're behind, oftentimes feeding their gold-advantage away. If miracle gets outplayed or pressured too much for even cr1t to save him, even with great farm notail rarely really manages to turn a game around. The game is either going great already and notail had very little to do with it initially, or the game is going badly and you cannot rely on notail to turn things around no matter how farmed he is. What he did well this tournament and has been getting better at already in the past couple of months, is joining his already winning team and securing a victory, not throwing away the advantage his teammates usually build by themselves. Not a bad player by any means, but certainly not a t1 carry either.

I think there's a reason OG never gotten close to winning another tournament or qualifier after the frankfurt major(though they usually didnt join a qualifier if they did not receive a direct invite), and while they did win a couple of LANs in the past months those were very low quality when it came to their opponents. They did finish 3rd at epicenter, but placed behind the only two teams that could be described as t1 teams at that event. I am certainly surprised to see them succeed in the WB, but I always feel like their games aren't quite as exciting gameplay wise as other games, for example the liquid/lgd or newbee/lgd matches. It's a joy to watch miracle and especially cr1t though.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,903
Liquid trying a Drow strat vs Newbee and coming up even at 21 minutes. Looking bad for them since Newbee has Sven and DP.

I don't know why people still try Drow strats outside of a BO1 these days. It's so risky if you don't snowball hard. Then again, Medusa is their lategame insurance (Sven sucks vs Medusa) and Slardar's amp damage gets a lot more mileage out of Drow in general. It might work.

edit: yep, Medusa owned. Sven just can't do anything against a farmed Dusa.
 
Last edited:

Nryn

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
255
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Of the top 4 finishing teams, Newbee has got to be the poorest, strategically speaking. They seem to emphasize picking comfort heroes for their players over heroes that reinforce a common strategy. For instance, I don't recall Hao playing Lycan or Drow recently, and Mu's hero pool also seems to rotate among the same half a dozen heroes. As a result, other teams can be reasonably confident in what's coming and plan counters for it -- it reminds me of CDEC's run eventually snapping at TI5. As long as Newbee's draft strategy centers around being reactionary with counter picks over constructing a draft with a lot of in-built synergy (even if it's cheese), it's going to remain tough for them to overcome the final hurdle and actually lift a championship.

I actually think LGD has more potential than Newbee going forward, since their drafting rapidly adapts and learns a lot from the drafts of the western teams. Their biggest issue is that they are too cautious, and that was apparent in the Liquid series. That said, all the Chinese teams' prioritization of Batrider in the first pick phase over Slardar has been a common theme in their losses, so there is room for improvement for LGD when it comes to drafting as well.

Given that it's been 3 EU vs EU finals at the majors in a row, I think we might finally see broken the pattern of West and East winning alternate TIs.
 

Saark

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
2,340
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Chinese in general have very poor drafting compared to the top western teams. On a mechanical/individual level they more often than not have the higher quality team, but oftentimes lose games simply because they get outdrafted or caught off guard with a smart pick like that medusa in TL vs Newbee. That's DotA for you, one of the reasons I enjoy the game so much. It does hurt a little to see carries not have their radiance on for 5 minutes straight though, or having team fights that are really badly executed by one or both teams.
 

curry

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
4,012
Location
Cooking in the lab
Of the top 4 finishing teams, Newbee has got to be the poorest, strategically speaking. They seem to emphasize picking comfort heroes for their players over heroes that reinforce a common strategy.

I guess their strategy is to win all 3 lanes by outplaying the opponents and snowball.
 

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,048
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Congrats to OG for rolling over Liquid and taking the grand finals.

This is how our team enviroment is like. Bigdaddyn0tail is screaming in the mic:" BIGDADDY BIGDADDYYYYY BIG DOOOOODYYY YEEEAAAA IM" GOING INNNNN". I'm yelling "GET ON MY LEVEL HOE YEEE NEVA EVA NEVA EVA YOU CAN NEVA EVA GET ON MY LEVEL HOE" everytime I kill someone. Fly is spamming Alt Left-Click on his gold to count it every second, he's also spamming Alt Left-Click quickbuyu on Midas to remind us every second how close he is to buying Midas while me and n0tail are yelling at him stop counting your money jew and don't buy midas or we'll lose. Meanwhile cr1t's spamming "Good Game" on the chat wheel while typing "I am dead" every other second. Alas we have Miracle- aka "M-God" aka "8 0 0 0 M A T C H M A K I N G P O I N T S" playing anti-mage and I think he muted all of us.

Now you might be thinking:"How the hell does a team function like that? Let alone win?!". Well that's because this is the environment Miracle- is used to playing in his 8000 Ranked MM games. He ends up playing anti-mage or SF and carries the game 1v9. We are simply re-creating the environment in which he excels: Miracle + four 4k mmr teammates
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I feel like the commentators were a bit harsh on Miracle- in games 1-3. Sure, he didn't take the spotlight, but just being able to maintain decent farm while still contributing in fights when it counts when basically the entire enemy team is trying to keep you down because everyone is like STOP DA 9K!!! is impressive as hell to me. Never tilts.
 

Mr. Pink

Travelling Gourmand, Crab Specialist
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
3,048
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I feel like the commentators were a bit harsh on Miracle- in games 1-3. Sure, he didn't take the spotlight, but just being able to maintain decent farm while still contributing in fights when it counts when basically the entire enemy team is trying to keep you down because everyone is like STOP DA 9K!!! is impressive as hell to me. Never tilts.

definitely. not to mention that liquid wasted a ban on invoker every game. I think OG just figured out liquids style and completely countered it. They let liquid have whatever they wanted (ES, slardar, disruptor ) and crushed them.

I still feel like if it had been a OG vs Newbee game, OG would not have won.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom