Review Dragon Age 2 is Darkier, Sexier, Better

[Angthoron]

You are an idiot.


"actually memorable, like Candlekeep"

And, thsi proves it. What wa smemorable? the fetch quests? Rat killing? Murdering 1 hp assassins armed with daggers? LMFAO

BG is not as good as DA. period.

Cannot into words, Volly? It says it in the opening of the line. World design. WORLD DESIGN. WORLD DESIGN.

Is the "quest design" mentioned there? No? No? Also, please, give me an example of an area in DA that actually looks anywhere memorable in a good way? Please? I'll even reinstall the game and play it til that point to witness it myself, I promise. I honestly want to see superior world design first-hand. You're clearly an expert on BioWare RPGs so you're my last and best hope here. I'm counting on you, Volly.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

No. Your shoulder lines are based on the outline of a furry piece of garment. Your mistake is taking them for shoulders when the mailed arms don't follow the same projection in the first place. But whatever.

Sorry, no

That is a giraffe neck.

 

[Sceptic]

please, give me an example of an area in DA that actually looks anywhere memorable

Easy. Denerim Market District, Circle Fade, Ice Temple, Deep Ro-

in a good way

Oops, didn't see that one, sorry

 

[Angthoron]

please, give me an example of an area in DA that actually looks anywhere memorable

Easy. Denerim Market District, Circle Fade, Ice Temple, Deep Ro-

in a good way

Oops, didn't see that one, sorry

I have to admit that Market District probably made me rage more than any other part of the game because it was such a lazily done hub (every sidequest NPC lives here on 50 square meters? What a lucky coincidence!), and there was some sort of an FPS issue on my machine with it where on any settings FPS would drop to 2 when facing in a certain direction. Very memorable indeed.

Oh, and the wolfwere village in TotSC addon totally trumped that cultist village in DA: O in the way it was executed. There should be build up before pay-off, but no build-up occurred there. I was really hopeful when that creepy kid showed up, thinking that heck yeah, finally, some mindfuck will happen.

And then... Then I murdered an entire village.

 

[tehRPness]

Someone should just put this thread out of its misery.

 

[Sceptic]

I have to admit that Market District probably made me rage more than any other part of the game because it was such a lazily done hub (every sidequest NPC lives here on 50 square meters? What a lucky coincidence!), and there was some sort of an FPS issue on my machine with it where on any settings FPS would drop to 2 when facing in a certain direction. Very memorable indeed.

I also raged at Denerim but for a slightly different reason. For me it was the fact there was NOTHING else to see in Denerim. That was it: the market with one small square and a couple of indoor locations (one shop, one tavern - how memorable!), and everything else was back alleys with fetch/kill quest destinations. This from the same people who gave us the many-faceted Athkatla and the gorgeously mixed-up Baldur's Gate, still my favorite city district in any CRPG (and the main reason I still like the game despite its many many fuckups).

 

[Angthoron]

I also raged at Denerim but for a slightly different reason. For me it was the fact there was NOTHING else to see in Denerim. That was it: the market with one small square and a couple of indoor locations (one shop, one tavern - how memorable!), and everything else was back alleys with fetch/kill quest destinations. This from the same people who gave us the many-faceted Athkatla and the gorgeously mixed-up Baldur's Gate, still my favorite city district in any CRPG (and the main reason I still like the game despite its many many fuckups).

Oh, yes. This goes without saying. I was saving Denerim for the last of the places to go to (besides Deep Roads) and the reward was one district that would correspond to probably the gate area in Athkatla. I really shouldn't have been surprised by that point, but it was a let-down of gargantuan proportions anyway.

 

[misha]

i remember a thrill when i was entering the capital, the great denerim! ... and then this "wait wait wait... i surely missed sth... it cannot be so small", i really dont know why they couldn't give a CITY - ofc some areas were certain parts of quests... but hey - so many possibilities of sidequest you could do around the castle, around whole other districts.. blah



about the same people:
well some of them now are in obsidian [former Black Isle] so maybe these guys were responsible for making certain areas interesting, and thinking of sidequests which were more than bring me a carrot i will give you two coins...

 

[ElectricOtter]

Shit, at this rate DA 2 will be darkier than Doom3.

 

[racofer]

Let's see who finds the easter egg.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Let's see who finds the easter egg.

What the fuck?

Her face looks incredibly weird. Is she supposed to be a teenager?

 

[Vibalist]

The more I think about it, the more I'm with Angthoron on this one. DA was a poor game in many regards, but the number one letdown was definitely it's lack of anything distinctive and creative art-wise. It's not terribly different from BG2 in terms of story, quest design and NPC's, but BG2 really had a saving grace in its graphics and artwork. Athkatla was amazing to explore simply because of how it looked and felt. You had a sense that the city was alive, due to how handcrafted it felt.
DA really is generic bullshit on a high scale, but I suppose this is the type of stuff that's praised nowadays.

 

[Seven]

1. Premise. Despite the over-arching Bhaalspawn story, the player doesn't know anything about it until very late in the game. Until then it's about a conspiracy that the players knows very little about.

Actually, aren't both games epic fantasies in which you save the world?

World design. The world is actually much more open and detailed in BG. BG contains places that are actually memorable, like Candlekeep, for instance. I can't pick a single memorable area in DA that would stand out in a good way. I can find you many examples of weaksauce zones, but of good, none.

Candlekeep, yeah right... I'm sure you like BG better than DA, and I'm not going to tell what you should like better, but the world in DA felt more fleshed out and even the atmosphere in areas had a style to it--for example, the orphanage in the Alienage.

3. Levels of power attributed to PC. BG, you're a starting adventurer, your gear is weak, and will remain pretty weak and down-to-earth til the end since BG is a low-level adventure. Yes, you're a super-being as a matter of fact, but of that, very little manifests during BG1 save for those special abilities. DA, you're immediately the obvious Chosen One, Last Grey Knight Of Ferelden. You'll get a ton of uber loot and uber spells and will Fuck Shit Up With A Press Of An Awesome Button(TM).

In the BG series, didn't you have the opportunity to become a god? Also it was pretty apparent from the get go that you were a chosen one... but what's wrong with that? Your equipment, level and strengths are all relative to the enemies and challenges that you face. What good is a +10 longsword of greatness if all your enemies have +1000 arrows of infinite kill?

4. Story flow. Story flow in BG is natural, in DA it's forced and botched. Actually it's botched in every Bio game that's been made after BG1, but that's a different story.

What the hell are you talking about--in BG the story was very linear just as in DA (actually, in DA at least you had the opportunity to visit areas in any order that you chose). "Forced and blotched," I really don't see the sense in that statement.

5. Graphics/sounds. BG is made with a good degree of love, the world is presented in an excellent way - this is reflected in the enormous size of the game, but basically, graphics and sound blend excellently with the general world design. Perhaps this should be part of world design really. Anyway, DA does nothing of the sort. Ambients were rather poor, and graphics/art direction are just poor. Just the pixellated backgrounds with obvious seams are enough to feel annoyed - Borderlands with a smaller budget managed to make excellent backdrops.

Graphics? OK... sure...

 

[Angthoron]

1. Actually, aren't both games epic fantasies in which you save the world?

Yes, but the implementation is different. If you can't see that, well, too bad. Also, I'm not talking about series, I'm comparing DA1 and BG1 head to head, without expansions or DLCs. BG1 is not about saving the world.

Candlekeep, yeah right... I'm sure you like BG better than DA, and I'm not going to tell what you should like better, but the world in DA felt more fleshed out and even the atmosphere in areas had a style to it--for example, the orphanage in the Alienage.

Didn't feel that way, but hey, all the power to you if you liked it. However, more fleshed out? Denerim narrowed down to one tiny district with everyone important living in it? I understand abstraction, but that's just lazy. Additionally, it's utterly unimaginative. I know, I know, it's supposed to be a more "down to earth" setting, but it didn't have to be an utterly boring shithole. And yes, Candlekeep is made with a lot of detail, both externally and internally, when you finally get to see the actual library part. Oh, and having a bunch of idle NPCs here and there really helped. Sure, it's engine limitations, but again, it detracted from the place feeling like a city.

3.In the BG series, didn't you have the opportunity to become a god? Also it was pretty apparent from the get go that you were a chosen one... but what's wrong with that? Your equipment, level and strengths are all relative to the enemies and challenges that you face. What good is a +10 longsword of greatness if all your enemies have +1000 arrows of infinite kill?

Again, not talking about series. Just BG1. It was capped at what, 9? 10 for rogues?

4. What the hell are you talking about--in BG the story was very linear just as in DA (actually, in DA at least you had the opportunity to visit areas in any order that you chose). "Forced and blotched," I really don't see the sense in that statement.

BG story structure revolves around you looking for answers about Gorion's killer, your assassins and the iron crisis. You go around, discover shit, do sidequests. Simple, elegant, efficient. DA, you get quests to go to 4 planets, get 4 allies, save the kingdom, clear your name, stop the tyrant, kill the blight... Oh, and mind you, the Blight is about to KILL EVERYONE SO HURRY CHOSEN ONE! But oh wait, you just got a side-quest from your sex interest. Detour!

See, a story that has TOTAL IMMINENT URGENCY in it immediately fails when it derails into pointless filler sidequest. I know that it's how RPGs tend to run, but I never said that those RPGs are good. I just said that BG1 handles the reason you're doing things, and the reason you're not meant to RUSH better than DA. In fact, it handles it better than BG2 as well because BG2 opens with what, Imoen being stolen away? And immediately you're supposed to overcome this by gathering 50K gold and doing a million unrelated side-quests in the process. Flow of the story effectively annihilated. Oh, and it's botched, not blotched. Different thing.

5. Graphics? OK... sure...

Compare BG1 vs contemporaries and DA1 vs contemporaries. Yes, graphics.

 

[Xor]

At least Irenicus isn't going to destroy the world while you do side quests. It's actually pretty reasonable to say fuck it and let Imoen rot while you do side quests in BG2, because you don't necessarily give a shit about her.

 

[Angthoron]

At least Irenicus isn't going to destroy the world while you do side quests. It's actually pretty reasonable to say fuck it and let Imoen rot while you do side quests in BG2, because you don't necessarily give a shit about her.

Yeah, that's true as well. The things do accelerate once you lose your soul after all. Still, it would have worked if there'd be a different McGuffin for a while, the player could go around doing stuff, then shit would hit the fan, Imoen would get stolen and so on. But yes, absolutely, it's not quite that life-threatening, especially if you don't care about Imoen one way or the other.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Let's see who finds the easter egg.

And not only that, but Hawke is voiced by the same guy as Vaughn, teh noble elf rapist from DAO.

Cue loli elf raep.

 

[Sceptic]

Sure, it's engine limitations, but again, it detracted from the place feeling like a city.

"Engine limitation" shouldn't even be an excuse, considering DAO came out over a decade later. If anything, we should be saying that the city in BG1 was small, empty, abstracted, unrealized, etc, because of engine limitations. It's ironic that Baldur's Gate ends up being a sprawling, lively city full of little details and tons of stuff going on while Denerim's the exact opposite. The only engine limitation that affected Baldur's Gate was that the city was just too big compared to the area size the engine could handle so they split it into the smaller areas without any consideration for how that would affect navigation. All in all it was a small price though, especially when DAO STILL suffers from the city area being so tiny anyway.

Again, not talking about series. Just BG1. It was capped at what, 9? 10 for rogues?

That's WITH expansion. IIRC it was 8 in vanilla BG1, as I remember mages not even getting level 5 spell slots until TotSC.

BG story structure revolves around you looking for answers about Gorion's killer, your assassins and the iron crisis. You go around, discover shit, do sidequests.

You just reminded me of another aspect I liked in BG1 and that never reappeared in subsequent Bioware games: no leading by the nose in the MQ, at least early on. "Stuff is brewing up. Here's a small hint on where to start. Now here's the world, go have fun." Compare this with every single one of their other games: each NWN chapter started in the center, go in each cardinal direction to gather one of the plot coupons; ME has the retard-friendly HUGE signs over the plot nabulae/systems/planets so that there is absolutely no way to miss them; KOTOR and DAO are even worse, the only places to visit are the usual 4 plot ones (Denerim's already been covered elsewhere); JE didn't even have a world map (and no, the one they added in the PC version that you never, ever end up using doesn't count). Even BG2 was a step back with every location being neatly comparmentalized and there being no exploration to speak of, but at least it didn't have a giant "go here for the next step in the MQ" sign when on the world map.

See, a story that has TOTAL IMMINENT URGENCY in it immediately fails when it derails into pointless filler sidequest.

Another thing BG1 did well and Bioware managed to fuck up in almost every subsequent game. Sarevok does suffer from Bond villain idiocy in spades (why bother going after the greatest threat to my plans in person, or commit all my resources to eliminating him, or simply LOOKING AROUND FOR 5 MINUTES AFTER KILLING GORION? I'll just send stupid bounty hunters after him instead!), but at least there's no real urgency or reason to drop everything and run after him, quite the contrary. PC is a level 1 whimp, it makes much more sense to gather allies, stay out of the way and explore the world trying to find clues to what's going, make money and buy better equipment for the inevitable faceoff... then as you start unraveling his plans Sarevok gets serious and springs the trap at Candlekeep (which incidentally also advances his plans in other ways). NWN didn't do too badly in places either, though "let's put the search for the plague cure on hold while we do random sidequests" was pretty silly. Every single other one is plain stupid. Your sister is being tortured by a sadist who's after your soul? A Sith army is slowly taking over the planets of the Old Republic? Your master is being held by the evil emperor? Saren is plotting to destroy every shred of life in the galaxy? The darkspawn are about to invade the entire continent? Meh, it can wait while I go take my dog for a walk. It's like Oblivion all over again.

At least Irenicus isn't going to destroy the world while you do side quests.

On second thought this one's not so bad, because nothing's going to happen to the world while Irenicus waits for you. That's the whole point - he is waiting, and Imoen's the bait. The others are still stupid though.

 

[racofer]

I'm disappoint nobody commented on the easter egg I left on my post above

Unless... you're all homosexuals?

 

[hoverdog]

the link doesn't work, sorry :_(

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

the link doesn't work, sorry :_(

 

[Seven]

Yes, but the implementation is different. If you can't see that, well, too bad. Also, I'm not talking about series, I'm comparing DA1 and BG1 head to head, without expansions or DLCs. BG1 is not about saving the world.

I can see just fine: you used the sub-heading "PREMISE." The premise of both games are epic fantasies in which you save the world. Implementation is something different. Look man, it's the internet and this is a forum, you can't pretend that you meant something else when it's in plain black and white for all the world to see.

Didn't feel that way, but hey, all the power to you if you liked it. However, more fleshed out? Denerim narrowed down to one tiny district with everyone important living in it? I understand abstraction, but that's just lazy. Additionally, it's utterly unimaginative. I know, I know, it's supposed to be a more "down to earth" setting, but it didn't have to be an utterly boring shithole. And yes, Candlekeep is made with a lot of detail, both externally and internally, when you finally get to see the actual library part. Oh, and having a bunch of idle NPCs here and there really helped. Sure, it's engine limitations, but again, it detracted from the place feeling like a city.

Actually, Denerim was more than just the market district. BTW, sure they could have created separate little areas for every quest NPC, but how does that add value--who likes load times. Do you remember BG, where you had to go from area to another and then another just to complete the most mundane fedex quest? People tend to forget about this as time goes on.

Again, not talking about series. Just BG1. It was capped at what, 9? 10 for rogues?

Back to this--once again with time experience fades, so if you're going to limit yourself to just BG1, may be you might recall how generic and black and white the games was (even more so than the sequels and expansions)--it just seems like you're remembering just the good and then painting and overly rosy picture at that. And I mention this since you decided to bring up implementation.

BG story structure revolves around you looking for answers about Gorion's killer, your assassins and the iron crisis. You go around, discover shit, do sidequests. Simple, elegant, efficient. DA, you get quests to go to 4 planets, get 4 allies, save the kingdom, clear your name, stop the tyrant, kill the blight... Oh, and mind you, the Blight is about to KILL EVERYONE SO HURRY CHOSEN ONE! But oh wait, you just got a side-quest from your sex interest. Detour!

You don't have to do all of the mundane quests in DA--in fact in some intances you can tell NPCs' off if you're unsatisfied with the quality of the quest. Maybe you've forgotten the myriad of mundane tasks in BG, or maybe you like killing rats?

Compare BG1 vs contemporaries and DA1 vs contemporaries. Yes, graphics.

Both games look fine when compared to their contemporaries to me atl least...

 

[racofer]

the link doesn't work, sorry :_(

 

[ElectricOtter]

Let's see who finds the easter egg.

Nice body, but the face kinda ruins it.

 

[racofer]

Who cares about the face when it will be inside a plastic bag?