Dragon Age impressions

[made]

This is correct. The 'Level 0' is showing on the map because he seems to have enabled full plot assistance markers for unexplored areas.

This is incorrect. There were lvl 0 mobs even in the final area of the game with plot markers turned off when I had someone with the survival skill along because Morrigan decided to leave.

 

[1eyedking]

I don't believe that it's possible to encounter a level 0 enemy in the game, so I'm going to assume that's just the game's way of indicating that you're too far away to see the level, or that the level hasn't been generated yet. Most likely is that the 'level-scaling' was the change from 13 to 15 that you saw when you approached. So that's 2 levels, easily within a 5 level range.

Don't be so naive. That is solid, hard proof that the game adaptively scales the level of your enemies as you approach them and that there is no limit to this scaling (i.e.: it's Oblivion all over).

What you see in the animated screenshot is not a change from 13 to 15, but from 0 to 13. Level "0" means the critter hasn't been scaled yet.

The 5-level cap is an outright lie, and if not it's probably insidious double-talk: what they mean is that they place a Level "10" creature on the map, and it can either scale 5 levels up or 5 levels down, effectively increasing the range to 5-15.

 

[Aditya]

This is incorrect. There were lvl 0 mobs even in the final area of the game with plot markers turned off when I had someone with the survival skill along because Morrigan decided to leave.

Ic. Never used Survival on me or any of the party members. Either way, lvl 0 simply means the game has not assigned any lvl to them.

 

[kris]

What you see in the animated screenshot is not a change from 13 to 15, but from 0 to 13. Level "0" means the critter hasn't been scaled yet.

And you base this upon?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

What you see in the animated screenshot is not a change from 13 to 15, but from 0 to 13. Level "0" means the critter hasn't been scaled yet.

And you base this upon?

Rage never lies.

Honestly, his reactions are more of what I expected from the Codex (which is sad). Ultimately, this is a very good game, and it came as a shock to us. Some of us, those without pure hatred flowing through our veins, were able to recognize that and appreciate that fact. Others were not so lucky.

Look. You live a life seeking all evidence to prove that unicorns have larger penises than faeries. You compile evidence, you publish papers on the subject, and you feel that you have staked your reputation on unicorns having bigger dicks. Then comes this john holmes of a fairy that forces you to rethink your position on fairy dicks. You can do two things. You can accept this and appreciate this fairy dick for it's shocking size, or you can claim up and down that it only *seems* big because it's a fairy, but it's still a really small dick.

 

[DreadMessiah]

Some fights are scaled over a major range one of which made me stop playing because it reminded me of oblivion. I met some soldiers in the city at lower levels outfitted in normal guard gear and in another run through at higher levels they were decked out in elite gear and hit really hard. That was lame.Send some real elites after my party not normal soldiers that are now all of a sudden able to challenge my party in DA of high level characters. A dozen plus of elites that are decked out and challenge 18+ lvl party is silly. Send them to clean up the darkspawn and archdemon while I find something I would want to do more. Take Ally with you for the killing blow.

 

[1eyedking]

Lots of butthurt has ensued over solid evidence.

Some even turn a blind eye to the matter.

I am content.

 

[Grunker]

Lots of butthurt has ensued over solid evidence.

And you base this upon?

 

[1eyedking]

Then prove me wrong.

Create a character, save, go to a certain region at a certain level and note the challenge rating; reload, make your entire party gain 10 levels, return to that same location which you now didn't visit, and show me there is no level scaling.

 

[Silellak]

Thus, BioWare seems to have utterly defeated what makes sandbox RPGs so much fun.

Good thing DA isn't a sandbox RPG, then.

 

[Grifthin]

The bioware Devs said that that when you load up a level the monsters in the area are adjusted to within 5 or so levels of you. There's some level scaling. I like cause it keeps things challenging.

Atleast it's not like fucking oblivion where bandits end up with Daedric armor. Their weapons and equipment stays pretty mediocre.

 

[Grunker]

Then prove me wrong.

Create a character, save, go to a certain region at a certain level and note the challenge rating; reload, make your entire party gain 10 levels, return to that same location which you now didn't visit, and show me there is no level scaling.

The burden of evidence lies on you, little man. You make the claim, you supply the proof. I'll not be arsed to do any research of a topic just because some guy throws a random statement out in the air. Imagine if I had to react that way to all statements on the Codex.

 

[KazikluBey]

* I was bored and bought the book** to see what the fuss is about. I was shocked to discoverer that in the book monsters are very rare (two creatures? one brought in for examination, one killed by Geralt) and Geralt is more of a diplomat (way to miss an opportunity to load him up with speech skills) than a monster slayer.

I guess the TV-series was a better introduction then. It's campy and cheesy as hell, but I quite enjoyed it as an introduction to the franchise. I have a weak spot for le strong, silent type, like Geralt (as portrayed in the TV-series and game, at least) or Gatts in the Berserk manga, though.

Wow. I almost can't keep track of it. One moment I am in complete agreeance with you, the next I want to tell you how wrong you are

I've been thinking you're wrong about most things about Dragon Age, but suddenly I strongly agree with most of your post.

You summarization of The Witcher is almost on the spot, except for the stuff about linearity. It's a beef of mine that non-linearity and roleplaying are tied together. But nevermind that.

But DA having good to very good writing? Seriously? Now it's my time to be weak, I admit that. I don't have the inclination to get into a lengthy discussion about the writing, 'cause that will take ALOT of time. Suffice to say, I disagree strongly with you. I will give some examples, but since I don't go into a lengthy analysis, feel free to ignore me:

1) Lelianas dialogue consists mostly of telling stories. These stories break several of the golden rules in writing; stuff even newly hatched writers know not to. For example, all her stories have no foundation; no reason they should interest us. They are simply "I went there, this happened, and I did this." There is no meaning in them. In fact, it's so bad, 90% of her stories don't even matter to the situation you're in, or say something about her. Overall, Leliana is the worst example, but...

2) The writing is extremely inconsistent. One time, a is said, and the next, b is done. DA's characters are mostly flat (Arl Howe being the prime example), so it hinges its quality on the nonflat ones. And every single one of the nonflat characters are inconsistent as hell. Loghain, Duncan, and so on. The inconsistensy is also there in the rest of the writing. For example, Duncan comments he can't act solely on a feeling in regards to the archdemon, but Alistair and other Gray Wardens can tell you it really isn't a feeling, he knows for sure.

3) It's packed with clichés, as I've already argued.

4) It has trouble with incentives. Real trouble. It can't figure out what it wants to focus on. Are you after the blight? Is it Loghain? The school example of this is Baldur's Gate 2: it lets you choose if you're after Imoen or Irenicus, and then fucks up the focus whenever it claims you're only after one of them. DA is even worse, since it won't even let you choose. This again leads back to the inconsitency.

5) It's plain bland. Almost all party dialogue has traces of "Leliana-syndrome", in which the characters will blather on about stuff that has no real meaning or relation to the story. When there are exceptions, for example Wynne's teachings, they are so stupid they make you want to bang your head against the wall. The only points in conversation with characters are as follows: "God is good," "Love will save us," "Serving your own ends is smartest," "There will come a time when you'll have to choose" and "X is your worst enemy."

DISCLAIMER: I haven't spoken much to Sten, Oghren or Morrigan yet, so I can't tell if they're different.

All in all, the writing in DA is BAD, all in CAPS. The setting certainly beats Baldur's Gate, as well as some parts of the writing and story (Landsmeet, for example). But other parts are even worse than Baldur's Gate, boring you to tears with filler-text.

In conclusion: Writing is a core part of an RPG. It's the most important thing, in my mind, since it determines what you react to, how you're able to react, and, indeed: What role you play.

A game with writing as abysmal as DA's sometimes is, will not make the top10 list in my book.

Again: The game is good. But it's not better than Bloodlines or The Witcher by far.

I've been facepalming a lot during dialog. Edit for clarity: DA's dialog, of course.

 

[Grunker]

Well congratulations to you, motherfucker. Please explain to me why I'm an idiot. I actually mean that sincerely; I am quite capable of revising my standpoints and learning from other people, but one-liners will keep me in a state of idiocy for all eternity.

So please, expand or shut the fuck up and get out.

EDIT: Okay, I am an idiot: confirmed. I misread your last line as being directed at me, KazikluBey. Sorry

 

[kris]

Then prove me wrong.

Create a character, save, go to a certain region at a certain level and note the challenge rating; reload, make your entire party gain 10 levels, return to that same location which you now didn't visit, and show me there is no level scaling.

It is up to you to prove your wild claim that the level scaling goes from level 0 and up for all places. there is level scaling in the game, everyone can confirm that. It is easy to prove if you have an save game editor. change your characters levels to "1" and enter a new area. If your opponents are level 1 then you proved it. Preferably you also test this for several areas or see if an area you already have visited will scale to your "new" level.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wow. I almost can't keep track of it. One moment I am in complete agreeance with you, the next I want to tell you how wrong you are

Welcome to the Codex.

You summarization of The Witcher is almost on the spot, except for the stuff about linearity. It's a beef of mine that non-linearity and roleplaying are tied together. But nevermind that.

They are, which is what limits TW's role-playing options greatly.

Prologue:
The choice: do you want to fight a monster and do you want to fight the bandits? End result: same.

Chapter 1:
The choice: leave Abigail to the villagers or protect her. End result: fight the Reverend & Co later on or not. You get the Reverend's pass either way. Sadly the pass is meaningless and you get arrested no matter what you do.

Chapter 3: plenty of minor choices with even less minor consequences. No matter what you do, even if you know who the bad guy is (which really sucks if you decide to replay), you still end up fighting the bad guy at a pre-determined place, after a long and boring series of pre-determined events, and no matter what you do or how good you are, he escapes because CD Project insists on telling the story their way.

Anyway...

But DA having good to very good writing? Seriously?

Seriously.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... l#msg37219

Here is a link to my post with a dialogue sequence. Explain what's so horrible about it.

These are pretty damn good:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... 4066;image
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... 4068;image
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... 4084;image

1) Lelianas dialogue consists mostly of telling stories. These stories break several of the golden rules in writing; stuff even newly hatched writers know not to. For example, all her stories have no foundation; no reason they should interest us.

You're right. It's hard to imagine that there are people who see conversation as an opportunity to tell you some [stupid] story and who don't really care if you're interested in the story or have time to hear it. That's why I like real life so much: everyone is so thoughtful and always follows the golden rules of writing.

My point is that believable characters are realistic characters first and foremost. Characters who don't give a shit about what you like/want are at the top of that list.

They are simply "I went there, this happened, and I did this." There is no meaning in them. In fact, it's so bad, 90% of her stories don't even matter to the situation you're in, or say something about her.

Shit, do you live in some kinda bubble?

2) The writing is extremely inconsistent. One time, a is said, and the next, b is done. DA's characters are mostly flat (Arl Howe being the prime example), so it hinges its quality on the nonflat ones. And every single one of the nonflat characters are inconsistent as hell. Loghain, Duncan, and so on. The inconsistensy is also there in the rest of the writing. For example, Duncan comments he can't act solely on a feeling in regards to the archdemon, but Alistair and other Gray Wardens can tell you it really isn't a feeling, he knows for sure.

I see... A character told you something that wasn't true and you see it as an inconsistency and a bad thing? Why?

3) It's packed with clichés, as I've already argued.

It's packed with the familiar concepts that were improved, developed into something interesting, or greatly fleshed out.

4) It has trouble with incentives. Real trouble. It can't figure out what it wants to focus on. Are you after the blight? Is it Loghain? The school example of this is Baldur's Gate 2: it lets you choose if you're after Imoen or Irenicus, and then fucks up the focus whenever it claims you're only after one of them. DA is even worse, since it won't even let you choose. This again leads back to the inconsitency.

Why the fuck should a game give you a narrow focus?

5) The only points in conversation with characters are as follows: "God is good," "Love will save us," "Serving your own ends is smartest," "There will come a time when you'll have to choose" and "X is your worst enemy."

Not true.

DISCLAIMER: I haven't spoken much to Sten, Oghren or Morrigan yet, so I can't tell if they're different.

sigh

 

[Grunker]

Seriously.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... l#msg37219

Here is a link to my post with a dialogue sequence. Explain what's so horrible about it.

Ironically, that scene is the symptom of exactly what you are accusing TW for. I cannot go back and punish the elves immediately after that scene, gaining the werewolves as allies. I don't mind this actually, I'd just like an additional dialogue choice with the elves after it, but it does render your point moot.

Also; I said there were examples of good writing. But overall, it's bad, and the companions are the shining examples.

ou're right. It's hard to imagine that there are people who see conversation as an opportunity to tell you some [stupid] story and who don't really care if you're interested in the story or have time to hear it. That's why I like real life so much: everyone is so thoughtful and always follows the golden rules of writing.

My point is that believable characters are realistic characters first and foremost. Characters who don't give a shit about what you like/want are at the top of that list.

I'm sorry, but I lolled

Being realistic is in no way a measure of whether writing is good or bad. Emulating realism is a fucking piece of cake, but when I sit down with a piece of art or entertainment, it has to be interesting too.

There is a reason no one makes games where you just emulate a normal, boring workday. Except Eve, obviously.

hit, do you live in some kinda bubble?

Que?

I see... A character told you something that wasn't true and you see it as an inconsistency and a bad thing? Why?

FUUUUUUUUU-

Stop defending the goddamn writing with your own logic and start defending it with the writing itself! YOU are not supposed to close the holes in DAs writing, if it's good, it will do that by itself. Said in another way:

WHY would Duncan lie about him acting on a feeling? There is goddamn way in hell. None at all. This is inconsitensy. Also known as "plot holes." And don't make up excuses for it; use the writing's own merits to defend it.

It's packed with the familiar concepts that were improved, developed into something interesting, or greatly fleshed out.

Every single part of the fleshed out stuff is taken elsewhere. Elves from TW, for example.

Why the fuck should a game give you a narrow focus?

Who said anything about a narrow focus? I just said 'a' focus. Game has several, and it clusterfucks around them.

Not true.

Elaborate.

sigh

What? Something wrong me not talking about shit I don't know about? Would you rather I do like Skyway? My points still have merit. Even if those three are entirely different, they are not enough by themselves to rescue the standards of DA's writing.

You have a bad habit VD, of quoting my arguments, but only commenting on a few select parts.

 

[DreadMessiah]

Duncan does not reveal the grey warden secrets to others which is why he has a "feeling"... They use blood magic to taint themselves which is two things others would not look kindly upon since a couple of centuries before they helped overthrow the king of Ferelden. The order is small in the land and Duncan is trying to rebuild it. Alistair tells jory, pc, and daveth about the darkspawn sensing in the Kokori wilds. The ritual is supposed to be secret which he explains at Ostagar joining ritual... Did you even bother paying attention?

 

[Grunker]

None of that explains why he attributes it to a feeling. None. And I've commented on the blood magic earlier.

Hiding the dangers of the ritual makes perfect sense. But if the king would listen to him if only it wasn't a feeling - and it then isn't - makes no sense at all.

 

[DreadMessiah]

kay... Yeah he should just explain everything so others can gripe against the order and denounce them. I mean others are totally against using such leverage to gain power. Everyone thinks highly of the grey wardens yet how many still will when what happens is revealed? Jesus the game even states this shit right in the damn beginning...

 

[Grunker]

kay... Yeah he should just explain everything so others can gripe against the order and denounce them. I mean others are totally against using such leverage to gain power. Everyone thinks highly of the grey wardens yet how many still will when what happens is revealed? Jesus the game even states this shit right in the damn beginning...

We are only discussing one thing here: Why he does not reveal to the king that he knows they're dealing with a true blight.

You still fail to provide me with a reason why he shouldn't.

 

[DreadMessiah]

The Grey Wardens would be run out of the country and have no way to bite the blight in the ass before it really got rolliing. Kind of like what happens after Ostagar except your character is able to do this with help. The imprisoned grey warden even explains this later in the game about being turned back at the border by Loghains regency orders. Thousands of troops and grey wardens are turned back because they come from Orlias which Loghain has a pathalogical hatred of based on loosing his mother and father to them during the occupation and his mother being raped and killed right in front of him when he was young. Too bad he has no real motivations at all based on his past life...

 

[Grunker]

Why would they be kicked out of the country for telling a king who obviously respects them beyond limits, that they are certain it is a true blight? The king even mentions himself he wished it was so.

Your arguments make no sense.

 

[1eyedking]

Thus, BioWare seems to have utterly defeated what makes sandbox RPGs so much fun.

Good thing DA isn't a sandbox RPG, then.

Sandbox as in non-linear, as in "I tackle quests in whatever order I want", sandbox as in "I'm level 5 and there are two level 5 areas, I'll do one first and then the other will be much easier and I'll feel rewarded for my progression".

You know, what DA:O attempts to achieve but as dutifully noted fails miserably at.

Also, Grunker made some good points while defending himself from VD. Truly, the writing in this game is subpar, it shows, and it's difficult how someone would find ways to defend it.

A piece of non-technical text without puns, without wordplay, without discourses, and without humor is bad writing. Gaider seems to equate wit with cheap one-liners and "big words", which he has a tendency to either explain outright or assume the player doesn't know them. Any half-assed writer can use contrived vocabulary or read a thesaurus, just as almost any idiot can use a calculator. True merit comes from the way words are employed, not for the knowledge of the words themselves.

 

[DreadMessiah]

Yes obviously since no one would use it as an excuse to get rid of the king and grey wardens. To even add more fuel to the fire. Oh wait...