Dragon Age impressions

[Grunker]

^yep, but the witcher ripped it off first

No, not the part of with the religious figure. Gaider substituted the nilfgaardian empire with that.

 

[1eyedking]

Defending himself? I thought we were having a pleasant conversation.

Such wit.

Again, I posted dialogue screenshots. I invite everyone to explain me what's so awful about the dialogue lines there. Inquiring mind and all that.

Let's see.

"Apparently everyone seems to agree that a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other. Marvelous, really."
Average.

"And how do you know they are right? Their faith would have you swallow a great deal for small comfort."
Err...average?

"It wishes to speak to these creatures? What is the point? We've slaughtered our way this far, what's a bit further?"
Oh, the humanity!

"The Dalish send a human, of all things, to repay us for our attacks, to put us in our place. What bitter irony."
Yes, irony is a difficult concept indeed it seems. Particularly when it's not understood, since there is no irony in sending a human, probably to his death, to keep humans-turned-werewolves cursed. It would have been ironic if for example that in lifting their curse and ridding them of their powers they can no longer defend themselves and get eaten by some wolves they themselves trained to viciously attack. There's also irony in that the Keeper in cursing his family's murderers cursed his own people, that in trying to kill the werewolves the Keeper gets himself killed. But obviously Gaider has a different idea of what irony means.

As for the rest...look, they use parenthesis to define actions! So old-school! This is a sure sign that the game is good and clever. Marketing and appearances have triumphed once again, it seems.

 

[Silellak]

The Elves actually have a pretty tragic history - giant empire, wiped out by humans then enslaved. Eventually they became free and found a NEW homeland. Most Elves, scattered across the world, traveled hundreds or thousands of miles to this new homeland (many dying on the way), only to have that homeland wiped out by humans again because those humans found Jeebus - Jeebus in this case actually being the very same human who had helped free them from slavery in the first place.

This is an exact ripoff of the witcher, but admittedly also of a lot of other fantasy works.

In the Witcher, the Elves were rescued from human slavery by a human religious figure? Who then helped rise to power by joining her rebellion against the Big Human Empire? And then, after finally settling in a newly restored homeland, were wiped out again by humans in the name of that same religious figure?

Also, everyone knows Elves in both the Witcher and DA:O are both rip-offs of the Jews.

One difference with many many similarities. Yeah man you got us...

Not saying there aren't similarities, just that if you're going to use the word "exact", it better be exact.

Also, I note that specific difference because I think it adds a great deal to the tragedy behind the Elven story. I know that after dealing with the Dalish tribe in DA, and learning their history, I was ready to burn down every Chantry I came across. I don't recall having the same emotional reaction from dealing with the Elves in the Witcher.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I... might be able to buy that, however it is extremely convenient and leaves alot of things unexplained. Why he would risk what he so obviously genuinely wants to defend for the sake of not telling the king: "Well, I know it because of a secret rite." or somesuch other lie.

Well, think of it this way. Grunker has the power to see disaster coming when he rapes a kid. One day, he rapes a kid, and realizes ITZ coming. Then he goes to the King to tell him of the impending disaster. What does he say?

A) [makes up something, like gut feeling]

B) "I...uh...raped a kid. But you see, there's a good reason for th- why are you calling the guards?"

 

[Vault Dweller]

Seriously.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... l#msg37219

Here is a link to my post with a dialogue sequence. Explain what's so horrible about it.

Ironically, that scene is the symptom of exactly what you are accusing TW for. I cannot go back and punish the elves immediately after that scene, gaining the werewolves as allies. I don't mind this actually, I'd just like an additional dialogue choice with the elves after it, but it does render your point moot.

First, no, it's not the same. Second, that not what we were talking about. So, you agree that this dialogue is good. Well, I can post a lot more dialogues that are good. Very few lines are bad or cringe worthy.

As for the Witcher's comparison, it's not the same as you don't jump through hoops here. Your destination is the lair. Talking to the werewolves aren't goals (i.e. talk to this werewolf, then talk to that werewolf), their role is to make you doubt the elves' version of the story and give you a reason to hesitate when you get to the lair.

You can't go back right away because the werewolves aren't interested in working with you yet and they aren't interested in killing the elves yet. The highlight of the design is that it is you who can convince them to embrace the curse and kill the elves.

Being realistic is in no way a measure of whether writing is good or bad. Emulating realism is a fucking piece of cake, but when I sit down with a piece of art or entertainment, it has to be interesting too.

There are many companions but you can have only 3 in your party. Why, you ask? It's elementary, Watson. Different companions appeal to different people. It sounds to me that you would have liked the very people you've never spoken to: Sten and Morrigan.

Stop defending the goddamn writing with your own logic and start defending it with the writing itself! YOU are not supposed to close the holes in DAs writing, if it's good, it will do that by itself. Said in another way:

WHY would Duncan lie about him acting on a feeling? There is goddamn way in hell. None at all. This is inconsitensy. Also known as "plot holes." And don't make up excuses for it; use the writing's own merits to defend it.

Has already been addressed.

Every single part of the fleshed out stuff is taken elsewhere. Elves from TW, for example.

Bullshit. See Silellak's post above.

Who said anything about a narrow focus? I just said 'a' focus. Game has several, and it clusterfucks around them.

Realistic.

Not true.

Elaborate

Talk to other party members or help Leliana stop preaching and go back to what she once was. She'll become a lot more enjoyable and colder.

What? Something wrong me not talking about shit I don't know about? Would you rather I do like Skyway?

No. What's wrong is you drawing conclusions about the party members without talking to all of them.

 

[Grunker]

I... might be able to buy that, however it is extremely convenient and leaves alot of things unexplained. Why he would risk what he so obviously genuinely wants to defend for the sake of not telling the king: "Well, I know it because of a secret rite." or somesuch other lie.

Well, think of it this way. Grunker has the power to see disaster coming when he rapes a kid. One day, he rapes a kid, and realizes ITZ coming. Then he goes to the King to tell him of the impending disaster. What does he say?

A) [makes up something, like gut feeling]

B) "I...uh...raped a kid. But you see, there's a good reason for th- why are you calling the guards?"

I'm not sure I quite follow that. In my reasoning, he does not have to tell he drinks the blood of blighted fuckers.

One thing has also been nedglected: How does Duncan explain the deaths of Daveth and ser Jory?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

He could just say it's because of a forbidden rite...but then

King: "Why is it forbidden? / which rite is that?"

Duncan: ...

Perhaps he could come up with a better reason than "gut feeling", but he's trusted by teh king and it works

 

[Grunker]

Why forbidden? Why not just "It's a secret rite." "Why is it secret?" "Because those who know pays the toll of having really bad dreams." "Oh, nevermind then." "I thought so."

A lot of stuff, and an accusation at the end

Come now, VD. My disclaimer was there to say that my comments were directed at all party members, except the ones I mentioned? What the fuck is wrong with that. Please treat me more gently, baby.

As for the rest... I yield, for now. I fail to come up with counterpoints as of now, which means you're probably right. Except for my points about Leliana, Wynne, Shale, and Alistair. Those still stand.

An attempt to prove me wrong about Leliana would be welcome. Give me one good reason why anyone should sit through her rants?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Why forbidden? Why not just "It's a secret rite." "Why is it secret?" "Because those who know pays the toll of having really bad dreams." "Oh, nevermind then." "I thought so."

Just as shitty as an explanation as the one Duncan gives...srsly

Btw, the king strikes again.

King : "Why is it secret? Would it be...because it's forbidden? I am the king, I demand to know"

Duncan : " "

An attempt to prove me wrong about Leliana would be welcome. Give me one good reason why anyone should sit through her rants?

Same reason you listen to unimportant bs in real life - because you feel like it. Maybe as a break from the srs biz you have to deal with later. Not every conversation has to be "epic" / important

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... ge-Origins

 

[Monocause]

They might've taken the basic idea of Elves from the TW world. So what? George Lucas created Luke Skywalker under the direct influence of the Monomyth theory, does it make it a ripoff?

In the TW world, elves have no place in human society. In DA they're downtrodden and exploited, but not nearly as miserable.

In the TW world the city elves would gladly slit your human throat provided they'd have a decent chance to get away with it. There is almost no communication between humans and elves.
The vagrant elves from TW are much less sophisticated or reasonable and much more barbaric than in DA. If you'd transpone the dalish elf origin to the TW world, it would be very short - the three running guys would get shot on sight, their corpses looted and left to rot. They're more akin to animals than a society of free spirited men that you can see in DA.

There was a discussion on RPG design once with someone asking why isn't anyone creating truly original worlds. I posted an example of something that would be truly original in a RPG game, being a mixture of commons, rituals and beliefs of primitive societies that are still present in our world. The fact is no one would play it, aside from perhaps a couple of fanatics that would make the effort to understand the game world. That'd be a niche smaller than what KotC or Spiderweb games aim at.

My point is, there's a difference between borrowing basic concepts and ripping off something, plagiarism. It's actually well defined in the intellectual property laws. IMO elves in DA are different from the ones in TW enough. All that assuming that Gaider *was* indeed inspired by TW - Slavery, explotiation, extermination and rebellion are familiar enough concepts and fit a 'dark, mature and gritty' world so well that you're sure to find them one way or the other. Mix it with fantasy and you can come up with 'enslaved, exploited, exterminated and rebelling elves' without too much of a sweat.

 

[DreadMessiah]

An attempt to prove me wrong about Leliana would be welcome. Give me one good reason why anyone should sit through her rants?

She gives insights into stories about DA legends and she gives insight into another part of the game world? Also a short personal quest and exp/best bow in game (possibly)?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Defending himself? I thought we were having a pleasant conversation.

Such wit.

What are you talking about? I actually like Grunker and enjoyed arguing with him. What seems to be the problem, officer?

Again, I posted dialogue screenshots. I invite everyone to explain me what's so awful about the dialogue lines there. Inquiring mind and all that.

Let's see.

"Apparently everyone seems to agree that a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other. Marvelous, really."
Average.

"And how do you know they are right? Their faith would have you swallow a great deal for small comfort."
Err...average?

"It wishes to speak to these creatures? What is the point? We've slaughtered our way this far, what's a bit further?"
Oh, the humanity!

Great arguments. How do you come with them? It appears that you simply type "average!", but surely there is more to it?

"The Dalish send a human, of all things, to repay us for our attacks, to put us in our place. What bitter irony."
Yes, irony is a difficult concept indeed it seems. Particularly when it's not understood, since there is no irony in sending a human, probably to his death, to keep humans-turned-werewolves cursed. It would have been ironic if for example that in lifting their curse and ridding them of their powers they can no longer defend themselves and get eaten by some wolves they themselves trained to viciously attack.

The 'wolves see the irony that the elves send humans to deal with them because the werewolves were originally created by the elves to deal with humans. Hence, the irony. You don't understand it when you first hear it, but it clicks later when you learn more.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Defending himself? I thought we were having a pleasant conversation.

Such wit.

What are you talking about? I actually like Grunker and enjoyed arguing with him. What seems to be the problem, officer?

Not paying attention to him, that's the problem

 

[DreadMessiah]

They might've taken the basic idea of Elves from the TW world. So what? George Lucas created Luke Skywalker under the direct influence of the Monomyth theory, does it make it a ripoff?

In the TW world, elves have no place in human society. In DA they're downtrodden and exploited, but not nearly as miserable.

In the TW world the city elves would gladly slit your human throat provided they'd have a decent chance to get away with it. There is almost no communication between humans and elves.
The vagrant elves from TW are much less sophisticated or reasonable and much more barbaric than in DA. If you'd transpone the dalish elf origin to the TW world, it would be very short - the three running guys would get shot on sight, their corpses looted and left to rot. They're more akin to animals than a society of free spirited men that you can see in DA.

Enslaved in the old empire still. One of the quests in the alienage deals with this in DA. Both live in their own areas of a city. Plenty enough half-elves exist in TW city. Including one you can smex. Opening origin of dalish elf lets you just kill the humans outright. After learning of the cave and treasure I killed them by choice :D. Not all wilderness elves in either setting are all kill humans on sight yet it happens often enough if you read about the background. Elves in both settings are treated differently in different countries/empires.

 

[made]

Out of curiosity, how are the Elves in DA a rip-off of Elves in the Witcher universe?

I'm honestly curious, because all I know about the Elves in the Witcher universe is based off the game, and from that it's doesn't appear to be a rip-off beyond the most superficial comparisons.

Both games: Those that live in cities are poor, looked down upon, etc while those that live in the wilds are rebels and both had thier ancient civiliztions destroyed by humans and were enslaved to certain degrees.

...who are based on Arrakis' Fremen who happen to share the same characteristics and in turn are based on the nomadic tribes of Arabia. Yea, not very original, but I wouldn't say TW invented the concept.

 

[DreadMessiah]

Out of curiosity, how are the Elves in DA a rip-off of Elves in the Witcher universe?

I'm honestly curious, because all I know about the Elves in the Witcher universe is based off the game, and from that it's doesn't appear to be a rip-off beyond the most superficial comparisons.

Both games: Those that live in cities are poor, looked down upon, etc while those that live in the wilds are rebels and both had thier ancient civiliztions destroyed by humans and were enslaved to certain degrees.

...who are based on Arrakis' Fremen who happen to share the same characteristics and in turn are based on the nomadic tribes of Arabia. Yea, not very original, but I wouldn't say TW invented the concept.

They happen to be elves?

 

[Silellak]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

Pretty damn funny, as always, though as usual when Yahtzee talks about RPGs of any sort, I take his "opinion" with a grain of salt - even more than when he talks about other genres.

As someone in the comment section put it:

Him actually putting "Baldur's Gate" in the same line as "Morrowind", "Oblivion", "Age of Conan" and "World of Warcraft" tells me perfectly fine that he still doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about

 

[Imbecile]

snip

Good post. Its pretty damn easy to look at things superficially and say its either a rip-off or homage to X. Sometimes that is the case, but sometimes there is more to it than that.

I can appreciate why sometimes it would be nice to lose the whole elves/dwarves/orks thing completely, but even then you can usually find the inspiration for these "new" races in either existing stories, or in real history.

The Dragonbone Chair is an example of this. Fantasy, with no elves or dwarves - but there are plenty of spins on Welshmen, Romans, Indians, Vikings, Anglosaxons, Eskimos and Elf/Cat/Oriental hybrids.

Because they are well explained, integrate well into the story and given a little depth, all of this is forgivable. Ultimately quality matters a lot more than originality.

 

[Grunker]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1096-Dragon-Age-Origins

Pretty damn funny, as always, though as usual when Yahtzee talks about RPGs of any sort, I take his "opinion" with a grain of salt - even more than when he talks about other genres.

As someone in the comment section put it:

Him actually putting "Baldur's Gate" in the same line as "Morrowind", "Oblivion", "Age of Conan" and "World of Warcraft" tells me perfectly fine that he still doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about

EXACTLY. In caps, 'cause that makes me really cool.

He is the perfect reviewer when it comes to sarcasm, except when it comes to RPG. For example, he levels criticism at DAO for taking a "standard fantasy approach," meaning collecting items, tactical combat and dialogue. However, he has high praise for Painkiller and similar shooters - and how are they not standard FPS-bullshit?

EXACTLY!

(I have no life so I e-mailed him about it. He didn't answer. I'm crying myself to sleep because of it.)

 

[Raghar]

The bioware Devs said that that when you load up a level the monsters in the area are adjusted to within 5 or so levels of you. There's some level scaling. I like cause it keeps things challenging.

Where they said that?

They said rats have certain levels and when party would be above theirs level range they would be at max level. They also said some opponents have fairly large range, and large min level.[/code][/quote]

 

[Silellak]

Ultimately quality matters a lot more than originality.

This.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

^Like idonthavetimeforthiscrap, he chose a most misleading username

 

[KazikluBey]

Hm, wow. How the hell did this ending slip past QA?

Spoiler

I decided to force Alistair and Anora together, but in the end I let him kill the Archdemon (thus dying in the process). Yet in the ending Anora asked if "he is always like that", and according to the ending slides he was a mascot king for years to come.

 

[FeelTheRads]

That's because he got up after the fight. Hawhaw.

Couldn't miss such an obvious one.