Dragon Age impressions

[Vault Dweller]

So, uhm... you want to prove that DA writing is good by comparing it to that of FO3? Really?

I used the FO3 example to explain what bad writing is.

So... should we tell you to do your own version of Oblivion since you wrote a scathing review of it?

My review was a bit longer than "Oblivion is shit" and it explained what I didn't like and what the problems with the design were in details.

You & Co, on the other hand, simply state that the dialogues are shit and refuse to explain it. That's the problem. Besides, if you, unlike me, see what's wrong with the lines, it won't take such a learned individual more than 5 min to produce a superior line.

I don't see it as a particularly amazing line. Shale is not a complex, well-developed character anymore than HK-47 was. Okay for a good laugh, great gameplay-wise as a tank that can AOE stun, but I must deeply apologize that I can't appreciate his/her/its brilliant wit the way you apparently do.

Are things in your world either brilliant or shit? Nothing in between?

Then he adds "Their faith would make you swallow a great deal for small comfort." That's just fucking brilliant and sums up pretty much every religion well. This line is actually deep and loaded with contempt and arrogance of one who considers himself above such foolishness. If you can describe religion better in a single sentence, I would surely like to see that.

Oh dear. Are you trolling me?

But if not--I'm an atheist and you just made me cringe. That's it? This is what you find profound, a statement that summarizes something as obvious as "fire is hot"? Yeah, I bet most college freshmen agree with you. The Chantry is a Crystal Dragon Jesus and the templars are, well, templars; you can tell, pretty much from the start--especially if you come from a mage background--that they're your run-of-the-mill Inquisition-esque church that tolerates no heresy (hunting down "apostates" and all that rot). And you say this... changes everything and makes the player doubt? Really? Maybe if you've never seen this stale, stale fantasy cliche before. Maybe if you're really quite dumb or have never been exposed to real-world Christianity and can't draw the hilariously obvious parallels between the Maker and that invisible sky daddy.

Even the phrasing itself hardly sparkles with linguistic creativity. "Swallowing bullshit" is a cliche; "small/cold comfort" is ditto. If you think saying a lot through common cliches is the way to go, well, at least nobody can say you have unrealistic standards.

I give you 8/10 for this misdirection attempt. It's not about me. It's about the line.

Let's keep it simple. Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

 

[larpingdude18]

One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better".

NO :ESF:

 

[FeelTheRads]

Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

This is not VD.

What the fuck did you do with VD?

That's a definition of bad writing? Really?

...

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

Well, I disagree. I can tell some food tastes bad without being a cook myself.

The line in the actual games sounds ok to me. I don't think it's brilliant, but it's not bad either (maybe to some like lolbaronjohn up there that get it hilariously wrong)

 

[Vault Dweller]

Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

This is not VD.

What the fuck did you do with VD?

That's a definition of bad writing? Really?

...

:controversy:

Pretty much. When you evaluate something, in most cases (which definitely applies to writing) you see and understand flaws. When you understand flaws, you know how to improve and do better.

One of the reasons I've started working on a game - believe it or not - is because after evaluating many games and their numerous flaws, I've decided that I can do better. Very arrogant of me, I know.

Now the ESF argument is idiotic simply because making games is a lengthy business. It's used not to encourage people to make games, but to shut them up. It's not the case here. We all agree that Lesi is a well educated, intelligent person. Writing a few lines would take her what, 5 min?

I'm asking for a proof that the lines in questions are bad. I've admitted that I don't see anything wrong with them. Someone who does should be able to write better lines effortlessly, because that's what we all do here. We write, which makes my request reasonable.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Poor you.

How much sand?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

So far I would say Oblivion had better writing than FO 3, and DA.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

Well, I disagree. I can tell some food tastes bad without being a cook myself.

I said ONE of the definitions of bad WRITING, not the only definition of everything bad.

Many people on this forums are very, very good at expressing themselves. So, there is no fucking way that people who are good at writing can't fix a few lines to make a quick point.

 

[Volourn]

"So far I would say Oblivion had better writing than DA."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Well, I disagree. I can tell some food tastes bad without being a cook myself.

I said ONE of the definitions of bad WRITING, not the only definition of everything bad.

Yes, I noticed. I still don't think it's a valid interpretation, though, since while you may be able to identify flaws in a bad text, you may not have the creativity and writing skills to make a better version. You may not be able to "express" your better version on paper. For example, I don't think the NWN1 OC is an example of good writing, but I don't think I can make an interesting module improving it.

Btw, that was just a shitty analogy I use sometimes, don't mind it.

 

[Talby]

It's difficult to judge AoD's writing without playing through it and reading everything in context. From the dialogue screenshots I can judge the quality of sentence structure and the like, but I can't tell if the story is compelling and well thought out, with interesting characters and so on.

...Wait, this thread is supposed to be about DA?

 

[Alex]

Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

This is not VD.

What the fuck did you do with VD?

That's a definition of bad writing? Really?

...

:controversy:

Pretty much. When you evaluate something, in most cases (which definitely applies to writing) you see and understand flaws. When you understand flaws, you know how to improve and do better.

One of the reasons I've started working on a game - believe it or not - is because after evaluating many games and their numerous flaws, I've decided that I can do better. Very arrogant of me, I know.

Now the ESF argument is idiotic simply because making games is a lengthy business. It's used not to encourage people to make games, but to shut them up. It's not the case here. We all agree that Lesi is a well educated, intelligent person. Writing a few lines would take her what, 5 min?

I'm asking for a proof that the lines in questions are bad. I've admitted that I don't see anything wrong with them. Someone who does should be able to write better lines effortlessly, because that's what we all do here. We write, which makes my request reasonable.

VD, I won't comment on the quality of the lines itself, since I neither played the game itself and, different from Lesifoere, I am very much a Theist (so I would be biased, I guess). However, I agree with FeelTheRads at this point. I don't need to be able to make a better line than that to criticize it (not that I am). Writing a few lines can be a very lengthy business. Poems are frequently short, but may take a long time to write. Also, judging the writing in the game depends on the context. The rewriting of the line could require the rewriting of various other lines in other to be really good. A single line doesn't necessarily correspond to the expression of a single concept in the writing. And to better write a line, you may need to rework the entire structure of the text.

Even if all the above was false, people don't need to be able to identify the exact reason they dislike something in order to dislike something. We usually judge whether we like or dislike without dissecting it piece by piece with our minds. So, it certainly would be better if Lesifoere explained why she thinks Dragon Age's story is bad, as it would make this thread more useful (I haven't read it all, but I am guessing it is 60 pages of mud flinging, right?). However, if she is unable to do so, it doesn't make her opinion invalid.

 

[KevinV12000]

I stayed away from reviews and the forums until I had formed my own judgment on Dragon Age and then was very interested to see what everyone's overall take is.

Here's mine:

Dragon Age is a solid, enjoyable computer role playing game. The characters are all interesting, with each origin story very well done from a story-telling and setting-the-table standpoint. Some of the orgin stories are stronger than the others (Dwarf Noble, Dwarf Commoner and City Elf come to mind as stronger), but all definitely give your character a unique starting point to discover this new world.

The writing is well done, especially the Codex excerpt format, in which you are reading a passage from a larger work, slowly gaining a complete picture of the culture and world around you. The diaglog between the characters is well written and witty.

Combat is a blast, though I think there is too much of it, probably due to its main defect (about which see below). I'm playing on Hard and there have been a few battles to date that really have had me working. But most of the time you breeze on by.

The classes are basic, but with a wide variety of skills and styles to choose from. I like what they did with 3 basic classes. Rogues are very fun once you learn to get the most out of venoms and combat positioning.

Overall, it's very enjoyable and certainly superior to the releases we've seen lately.

However, it's main defect is that it's a console game, which is a crying shame. I understand why Bioware had to make it a console game--I work too much in the real world not to understand that economic and market reality doesn't give a shit about some of the deeper things in life. We're surrounded by morons who want to mash buttons while chomping on Cool Ranch Doritos in between polishing their Escalades. Get used to it, it ain't gonna change.

But, damn, it's a crying shame. The levels are console tiny and standardized (think: Thief 3 versus Thief 2 zones), the interface overly simplistic and the inventory shared. I got over it, and I think you will too, but it's just too bad as I think this game would absolutely rock if it had remained a love letter to computer gamers from an old friend.

 

[Lesifoere]

Are things in your world either brilliant or shit? Nothing in between?

Nice reading comprehension; I've said many times--in responses to you, even--that I don't consider DA a steaming piece of shit and I've said, again several times, that I find the lines you quoted merely functional and average. Did you have a lobotomy and is that strange haze clouding your eyes turning "I think it's meh" into "RAGE RAGE SHIT FUCK COCK THIS IS SHIT SHIT"?

Let's keep it simple. Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

It's official. VD's turned into Volourn.

But let's go from there: if you are served a steaming piece of turd at a restaurant, do you need to be a great cook to recognize that it is in fact a piece of turd? Does saying that it's inedible mean you are obliged to cook something edible and serve it to the person who handed you said turd? Or maybe you advocate shutting up and just spooning it into your mouth?

By the way, no, I wouldn't write a better line because if I were writing fantasy, I would bore myself witless writing something so bland. I'd rather not deal in fake Christian Inquisition or make dumb juvenile jabs at religion (and yes, it's juvenile. Trust me, I thought this was edgy too when I was fourteen). No ancient evil threatening the land, no idiotic rip-offs (or at least I'd make them less obvious). So where'd I put this hypothetical derp hey bro religion is bad u should think for urself and not be sheeple!11! line exactly?

I don't think the NWN1 OC is an example of good writing, but I don't think I can make an interesting module improving it.

That too. I think all copies of Twilight and Eragon should be burned indiscriminately. Am I going to write fanfiction based on what they should have been, new and improved according to my vision? Fuck no. Really, no.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I'd rather not deal in fake Christian Inquisition or make dumb juvenile jabs at religion (and yes, it's juvenile. Trust me, I thought this was edgy too when I was fourteen). No ancient evil threatening the land, no idiotic rip-offs (or at least I'd make them less obvious). So where'd I put this hypothetical derp hey bro religion is bad u should think for urself and not be sheeple!11! line exactly?

Well, the npc's don't have to always be wondrous wells of wisdom

Maybe it's just the old wizard's opinion, not the writer's

 

[Alex]

Let's keep it simple. Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

It's official. VD's turned into Volourn.

But let's go from there: if you are served a steaming piece of turd at a restaurant, do you need to be a great cook to recognize that it is in fact a piece of turd? Does saying that it's inedible mean you are obliged to cook something edible and serve it to the person who handed you said turd? Or maybe you advocate shutting up and just spooning it into your mouth?

By the way, no, I wouldn't write a better line because if I were writing fantasy, I would bore myself witless writing something so bland. I'd rather not deal in fake Christian Inquisition or make dumb juvenile jabs at religion (and yes, it's juvenile. Trust me, I thought this was edgy too when I was fourteen). No ancient evil threatening the land, no idiotic rip-offs (or at least I'd make them less obvious). So where'd I put this hypothetical derp hey bro religion is bad u should think for urself and not be sheeple!11! line exactly?

Uh... possibly after various scenes showing how religious faith fails to save the people who hold it, but instead is the very tool of their demise? Look, I don't think that you really need to write a better line to show your point, but why don't you try explaining in more detail why the line is juvenile? Does it lack to connect with previous or future occurrences in the game, therefore feeling like a silly, groundless jab at religion? Or maybe it does connect with those events but the connection and/or the events themselves are just weak? At least this would be more productive...

 

[TNO]

I agree with Lesi.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

This is not VD.

What the fuck did you do with VD?

That's a definition of bad writing? Really?

...

:controversy:

Pretty much. When you evaluate something, in most cases (which definitely applies to writing) you see and understand flaws. When you understand flaws, you know how to improve and do better.

One of the reasons I've started working on a game - believe it or not - is because after evaluating many games and their numerous flaws, I've decided that I can do better. Very arrogant of me, I know.

Now the ESF argument is idiotic simply because making games is a lengthy business. It's used not to encourage people to make games, but to shut them up. It's not the case here. We all agree that Lesi is a well educated, intelligent person. Writing a few lines would take her what, 5 min?

I'm asking for a proof that the lines in questions are bad. I've admitted that I don't see anything wrong with them. Someone who does should be able to write better lines effortlessly, because that's what we all do here. We write, which makes my request reasonable.

VD, I won't comment on the quality of the lines itself, since I neither played the game itself and, different from Lesifoere, I am very much a Theist (so I would be biased, I guess). However, I agree with FeelTheRads at this point. I don't need to be able to make a better line than that to criticize it (not that I am).

Let's go step-by-step and see if you'd agree with my reasoning:

- criticism requires analysis (saying "x is shit" doesn't count)
- analysis requires familiarity and/or expertise - I know nothing about aerodynamics, so I can't criticize airplane designs
- familiarity/expertise can be easily demonstrated

When people criticized Oblivion, they demonstrated their familiarity with RPG design by making knowledgeable, hard to dismiss posts (thus making a game wasn't required). When people criticize writing they should either explain the flaws or produce much better lines, thus proving that the original lines were indeed shit and no analysis is required.

I'm asking for either form of proof that the DA dialogues are indeed shit.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

"So far I would say Oblivion had better writing than DA."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oblivion had more lol moments.

There was more personality.
Like this fool right here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOSFNlBQVkY
"Precedeth most urgentlike."

If they had Mass Effects detail in the Maoism they would be the most life like NPCs since Bloodlines.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Are things in your world either brilliant or shit? Nothing in between?

Nice reading comprehension; I've said many times--in responses to you, even--that I don't consider DA a steaming piece of shit and I've said, again several times, that I find the lines you quoted merely functional and average. Did you have a lobotomy and is that strange haze clouding your eyes turning "I think it's meh" into "RAGE RAGE SHIT FUCK COCK THIS IS SHIT SHIT"?

My mistake. You've never said that it's shit and I mixed up some posts.

Let's keep it simple. Can you or can you not write a much better line? One of the definition of "bad writing" is "I can do it better". So, can you?

It's official. VD's turned into Volourn.

But let's go from there: if you are served a steaming piece of turd at a restaurant, do you need to be a great cook to recognize that it is in fact a piece of turd? Does saying that it's inedible mean you are obliged to cook something edible and serve it to the person who handed you said turd? Or maybe you advocate shutting up and just spooning it into your mouth?

How disappointing. I expected something better than you going for a tiny opening and working it like your life depends on it.

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=963641#963641

Try harder.

By the way, no, I wouldn't write a better line because if I were writing fantasy, I would bore myself witless writing something so bland. I'd rather not deal in fake Christian Inquisition or make dumb juvenile jabs at religion (and yes, it's juvenile. Trust me, I thought this was edgy too when I was fourteen). No ancient evil threatening the land, no idiotic rip-offs (or at least I'd make them less obvious). So where'd I put this hypothetical derp hey bro religion is bad u should think for urself and not be sheeple!11! line exactly?

You are truly a gentleman (even though you lack certain pre-requisites), Lesi. You realized that I fucked up when I mixed up who said what about the dialogues' quality and decided to even the odds by typing all this crap. I think you for your generous gift.

- "I'd rather not deal in fake Christian Inquisition"
I'm not asking you to deal in anything. I'm asking you to write something a person who deals with a "fake Christian Inquisition" might say. Wasn't that kinda obvious?

- "fake Christian Inquisition"
Please explain why you think that the Chantry is a fake Christian Inquisition.

- "make dumb juvenile jabs at religion (and yes, it's juvenile. Trust me..."
I'd love to but can't. Please explain if it's not too much bother.

- "I thought this was edgy too when I was fourteen"
I'm 39 and very well versed in different religions and philosophy. Let's play.

- "no idiotic rip-offs (or at least I'd make them less obvious)"
Like?

- "derp hey bro religion is bad u should think for urself and not be sheeple"
Fail. That's not what the line says at all. Try again?

I don't think the NWN1 OC is an example of good writing, but I don't think I can make an interesting module improving it.

That too. I think all copies of Twilight and Eragon should be burned indiscriminately. Am I going to write fanfiction based on what they should have been, new and improved according to my vision? Fuck no. Really, no.

I asked you for a few lines, didn't I? But yeah, let's try to blow it out of proportion and pretend that I asked you to publish at least 3 novels in 5 different languages first.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Don't waste your time, VD.

 

[Serious_Business]

- "make dumb juvenile jabs at religion (and yes, it's juvenile. Trust me..."
I'd love to but can't. Please explain if it's not too much bother.

- "I thought this was edgy too when I was fourteen"
I'm 39 and very well versed in different religions and philosophy. Let's play.

Why don't you explain why it's NOT juvenile and superficial, since you're so well versed in religion and philosophy.

Let's be serious here, the writers are not theologists. They're barely even qualified writers. This shit is going to be superficial by definition, I don't need to argue this, those guys haven't been reading Augustine in their sparse time. Well, it all depends on your standards I guess, but fuck it, it's teenage shit.

I remember this Morrigan-Alistair conversation, went something like this -
"so why dont u believe in god"
"cause u cant prove it herp derp"
"holy shit i didnt think of that i am trapped"
"yea ur stupid lol"
"fuck u damnit u dont know shit"
"yea theres nothing to kno its a belief lol"

Yeah fucking great. I think my version is actually deeper than the one in the game. Let's just accept that it's stupid shit and move on, nothing wrong with it, not like any other game has done better.

 

[Silellak]

Yeah fucking great. I think my version is actually deeper than the one in the game. Let's just accept that it's stupid shit and move on, nothing wrong with it, not like any other game has done better.

I always thought the debate surrounding the Wall of the Faithless in MotB was a pretty fantastic metaphor for the Christian version of Hell, but then the Wall of the Faithless is not a MotB-invention.

 

[Balthamael]

Let's be serious here, the writers are not theologists. They're barely even qualified writers. This shit is going to be superficial by definition, I don't need to argue this, those guys haven't been reading Augustine in their sparse time. Well, it all depends on your standards I guess, but fuck it, it's teenage shit.

But if we take that as a given, then it seems to me that Dragon Age's writing does not need to exceed any high boundary in order to be called good. Good compared to other games suffices. That is, of course, if we are arguing in good faith, which we obviously aren't, so whatever. It's all, like, opinion anyway.

 

[Soulforged]

It always surprised me how many people in this place think so much of themselves, but Lesifoere shows a particular pleasure in displaying her knowledge base. However when asked to come with a simple answer to something that should really be easy and straightfoward to one with such an expertise in good writing she just flounders and saves herself from a fall with a few flourishes.

This is not solely directed at you, of course, there are many people here who pretend to know better, and, nevertheless they can't come up with a single example of what would have been better in a situation as the one described.

And this is not just in the writing department, there seem to be quite a few game designers here, graphical designers and a variety of technically versed people.

The question is a simple one, if you cannot answer it properly then one can safelly assume that the person in question is acting out of prejudice and not above the mediocrity of these days, or maybe just custom.