Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

[Volourn]

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[kris]

Maybe. Maybe not.

you are a betting man I see.

 

[Oesophagus]

It will be better than DA2 for sure.

I wouldn't bet more than 10 potato on that

 

[Roguey]

What's the Roguey predetermined conclusion on this one btw?

Likely better than DA2 based on the extra amount of time they've been given and the awareness of some flaws of DA2 e.g. Laidlaw has acknowledged that he sided with the wrong people in the area designer vs writer conflicts since it removed player agency.

I doubt it'll be all that good though since Bioware targets a large multi-million audience and a lot of them are bad at playing games. It also doesn't look like they're taking the Christina Norman/Josh Sawyer approach to systems, which continues to be a disappointment.

 

[Infinitron]

Christina Norman

? Tell us more.

Only thing I can find about her is this whining.

 

[Roguey]

Christina Norman

? Tell us more.

Only thing I can find about her is this whining.

She was the lead gameplay designer on ME2. She was responsible for "let's rip out all the RPG systems and focus on creating a solid third person cover shooter then add back only what's necessary."

 

[Infinitron]

Christina Norman

? Tell us more.

Only thing I can find about her is this whining.

She was the lead gameplay designer on ME2. She was responsible for "let's rip out all the RPG systems and focus on creating a solid third person cover shooter then add back only what's necessary."

I see. Smart approach perhaps, but unsatisfactory execution. The game was too simple, and should have allowed a path towards some ME1-style wackiness at higher levels.

 

[Roguey]

I see. Smart approach perhaps, but unsatisfactory execution. The game was too simple, and should have allowed a path towards some ME1-style wackiness at higher levels.

The changes were Josh Sawyer-approved for the most part though he himself was bewildered by a lot of their decisions, a sign of inelegance. http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/236875962627660322

 

[Infinitron]

I see. Smart approach perhaps, but unsatisfactory execution. The game was too simple, and should have allowed a path towards some ME1-style wackiness at higher levels.

The changes were Josh Sawyer-approved for the most part though he himself was bewildered by a lot of their decisions, a sign of inelegance. http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/236875962627660322

My main problem with AAA game designers in general is that they're inordinately focused on the early-level, first-few-hours, gotta-get-that-high-Metacritic-score experience. They front-load all of their good design decisions on things that are relevant to the early game, and neglect the late game experience.

It's an approach which is particularly destructive in RPGs, which are supposed to feature character advancement as a major element. At this point, I'm afraid that many designers don't even know HOW to create a satisfactory late game experience. They just bloat hit points and call it a day.

Fake edit: Actually, there's probably one breed of designers who do know how to do the late game - MMORPG designers.

 

[tuluse]

Aren't MMOs the kings of hp bloat for lategame?

I don't recall late game Mass Effects just dealing with hp bloat.

 

[Infinitron]

Aren't MMOs the kings of hp bloat for lategame?

I don't recall late game Mass Effects just dealing with hp bloat.

Didn't say ME has HP bloat.

Some games don't even try to have a late game experience - they just let your character become overpowered.

 

[Roguey]

My main problem with AAA game designers in general is that they're inordinately focused on the early-level, first-few-hours, gotta-get-that-high-Metacritic-score experience. They front-load all of their good design decisions on things that are relevant to the early game, and neglect the late game experience.

It's an approach which is particularly destructive in RPGs, which are supposed to feature character advancement as a major element. At this point, I'm afraid that many designers don't even know HOW to create a satisfactory late game experience. They just bloat hit points and call it a day.

Fake edit: Actually, there's probably one breed of designers who do know how to do the late game - MMORPG designers.

That's not just AAA designers, most of 'em botch or mishandle endgames. They receive the least amount of balance and are also the hardest to balance when it comes to RPGs because of the variety of ways one can build a character.

Shadowrun Returns had a good endgame because their idea of high difficulty is my normal. Though they really dropped the ball when it came to requiring a specific weapon to defeat the insect spirits, especially since the P&P rules also allow magic damage.

 

[Shadenuat]

Atually, there's probably one breed of designers who do know how to do the late game - MMORPG designers.

They are just on reversed polarity. The late game dungeons and tricky and hard raids are awesome, but everything else from level 1 to -1tillMaxLevel is something you just want to rush to get to late game, because shit is boring, all your stuff you get inbetween is useless, and your friends and clan members are already max level.

 

[Minttunator]

My main problem with AAA game designers in general is that they're inordinately focused on the early-level, first-few-hours, gotta-get-that-high-Metacritic-score experience. They front-load all of their good design decisions on things that are relevant to the early game, and neglect the late game experience.

It's a shame, but it does make sense - sort of - as most people (and probably a lot of the reviewers as well) don't even get past the early game. I can't be arsed to look up the exact statistics, but I think the percentage of game owners that finish games (based on Steam achievements) was only something like 10-20%. Especially in the context of RPGs, which are often very long, many devs probably just don't want to spend resources on creating content that 80% of their players won't ever see. Still, like you said, it sucks for the rest of us.

 

[Roguey]

David Gaider wrote up a sample design doc for a side quest, in addition to explaining the process behind it, if you want to see how Bioware does those http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/67130771725/game-writing-nuts-and-bolts-part-4

So much cinematic and dialogue reactivity but no actual gameplay. Though as he says, not every quest in a RPG needs gameplay attached to it. DA2 could have used less of it.

 

[Space Satan]

David Gaider wrote up a sample design doc for a side quest, in addition to explaining the process behind it, if you want to see how Bioware does those http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/67130771725/game-writing-nuts-and-bolts-part-4

So much cinematic and dialogue reactivity but no actual gameplay. Though as he says, not every quest in a RPG needs gameplay attached to it. DA2 could have used less of it.

That's so perectly linear it could be used as a templates for all biowhore quests...oh, wait, it already does!

 

[Roguey]

But it's not linear, it has narrative branches and a "fail" state that doesn't end the game.

 

[Dreaad]

Heh it reminds of a visual novel decision flow chart.

 

[sea]

Most quests in RPGs are actually like that, but it's the way they take place in open game systems that makes them feel much bigger. A big problem with the modern BioWare formula is that there is no real gameplay associated with doing a quest - walk to NPC, press dialogue buttons (all which lead to the same outcome), maybe pick to help NPC 1 or NPC 2, fight some stuff, and done. The story impact is important but there are rarely if ever any decisions you make which affect how the game plays - i.e. pickpocket an item or kill its owner, persuade a guard to stand down or bribe him, etc., and whenever those choices do occur they are inevitably in dialogue scenes rather than something you can actually do yourself using the skills you have invested in with your character or party.

Even Fallout, with its similarly simple quests and extremely sparse dialogue, feels like it has more options because most of the quest is doing something instead of watching something and choosing an item from a list once in a while. It's amazing how much effect something as mundane as cutting an option off from the player due to a missed skill check, or not possessing a specific item, or whatever can have.

What concerns me is stuff like dialogue budgets. It must be a nightmare to want to tell a story but have someone who says "you can only have 50 lines of dialogue for this quest, because we have to voice-act and animate all of it." That really cuts down on options and leads to much more generic dialogue since lines have to be written in such a way as they can be reused and won't directly reflect choices the player made.

 

[Zed]

these people do different sort of dialogues. they don't even need that many words anyway, they can just have facial expressions and zoom-ins on side-boobs. as long as the general idea of whatever is being communicated.
I don't think that fewer words has to lead to more generic writing. they're just bad writers.

 

[Space Satan]

What concerns me is stuff like dialogue budgets. It must be a nightmare to want to tell a story but have someone who says "you can only have 50 lines of dialogue for this quest, because we have to voice-act and animate all of it." That really cuts down on options and leads to much more generic dialogue since lines have to be written in such a way as they can be reused and won't directly reflect choices the player made.

Not to mention how thanks to innovative and advanced dialogue wheel mechanics that already castrated dialogue is reduced to herp derp state to match target audience's IQ.

 

[Storyfag]

What concerns me is stuff like dialogue budgets. It must be a nightmare to want to tell a story but have someone who says "you can only have 50 lines of dialogue for this quest, because we have to voice-act and animate all of it." That really cuts down on options and leads to much more generic dialogue since lines have to be written in such a way as they can be reused and won't directly reflect choices the player made.

I don't think that should be a problem. CDPR expanded initial dialogue for some of TW2s quests. No regard for budget has been observed.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

That's so perectly linear it could be used as a templates for all biowhore quests...oh, wait, it already does!

The problem with this linearity always boils down to limited VO budget. Bioware wants to make story-heavy dramas, so naturally, they're gonna have to curtail quest complexity. I don't really expect DA:I to be much different from an avergage action-adventure.

Triple-A development is counterproductive to the essence of RPGs. That's where Project Eternity etc. comes in.

 

[Infinitron]

What concerns me is stuff like dialogue budgets. It must be a nightmare to want to tell a story but have someone who says "you can only have 50 lines of dialogue for this quest, because we have to voice-act and animate all of it." That really cuts down on options and leads to much more generic dialogue since lines have to be written in such a way as they can be reused and won't directly reflect choices the player made.

I don't think that should be a problem. CDPR expanded initial dialogue for some of TW2s quests. No regard for budget has been observed.

CD Projekt have potato budgets but sell their games for Western prices. This is the reason why they can do a lot of the things that they do.

Brother None has told me that during the development of Witcher 2 CDPR may have had lower operating costs than inXile (lol)

 

[MicoSelva]

CD Projekt have potato budgets but sell their games for Western prices. This is the reason why they can do a lot of the things they they do.
Brother None has told me that during the development of Witcher 2 CDPR may have had lower operating costs than inXile (lol)

Yeah. I would be surprised if a typical CDPR employee got more than 6000 to 8000 PLN salary, and that translates to ~$1900 to $2500, which is pennies from western perspective.