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Dragon Age Dragon Age: The Veilguard Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Popiel

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 15, 2015
Messages
1,499
Location
Commonwealth
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
i find it amusing that the Elder scrolls is literally just a bunch of conflicting nonsense written by authors with biases on purpose and everyone goes "yay! deep lore!" and Dragon age does the exact same thing and people scream that the lore is being "raped" or whatever. ya'll dont know what you want
But that's simply not the case: at least not anymore. Yes, DA lore was constructed in a way not too different from the way TES lore is structured. Your (players) knowledge of the world must be a form of interpretation of conflicting narratives – because they’re all there is, save for a very selected range of events with which you directly interact with. Even is the latter cases though TES games used to be very careful to maintain this dubiousness surrounding what’s going on, Morrowind is the classic and best example: we do not really know what exactly happened in this game. Was the prophecy genuine or was it simply a manipulation (by Azura, Vivec, the emperor, what gives)? What really happened at the Red Mountain (a background drama which is in fact the true plot of Morrowind, you have to dig quite deep to get that though)? What’s the Heart, what’s the nature of Ur’s existence and his true goals? We will never know definite answers to these questions even though we sort of interact with these events and these people. TES games are – or, precisely, used to be – written in this way on purpose. You almost never get ‘the truth’ – you are served ‘someone’s truth’ and that’s a world of difference.

Now, DA used to be similar. DA:O has a lot of lore which is pure speculation and where you can clearly see blatant lines where propaganda of different sides intersect and fight eachother. And on top of that there are some questions which are clearly written not to have definite answers to. Who’s/what’s the Maker? What’s the Black City? What’s the deal with the darkspawn? There’s a lot of that and yes, it gives this setting quality. It enables speculation, it creates a space for creative vagueness.

Dropping of this narrative strategy is where TES and DA differ fundamentally. DA, starting from DA2 and going full on with this in DA:I, just started to straightforwardly explain the setting in most mundane, cliché and worn out way imaginable. All that is mysterious and esoteric is just normal stuff but it’s old and forgotten – that’s certified boredom, it’s the most tedious of possible narrative strategies. It’s plainly speaking not interesting. And people complain about this because series started in a different place. Better place.
 

The Wall

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 19, 2017
Messages
3,695
Location
SERPGIA
It's simple. Really simple. People left working at Bioware can't even change language on their keyboard let alone write competent and good lore. You are expecting quantum physics from chickens

This is literally Creative Director for Bioware:
:bioware:
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
1,284
are we talking about the generic parts that are canon, the fun parts that were retconned out of existence, or the blogposts we like to pretend matter
Delterius anon! Good strong friend anon! Bestest Elder Scrolls is Kirkbride anon schizokino anon! It is true anon! It is! Do not worry anon it is okay anon because other lore is generic fantasy popamole nonsense anon! It is true anon! It is! You should watch the sky anon! You should! You are a good strong friend anon!
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
i find it amusing that the Elder scrolls is literally just a bunch of conflicting nonsense written by authors with biases on purpose and everyone goes "yay! deep lore!" and Dragon age does the exact same thing and people scream that the lore is being "raped" or whatever. ya'll dont know what you want
Elder Scrolls has consistency in it's tone and atmosphere. Inconsistency in lore is excused by making sources of information within the game unreliable or biased.

Dragon Age went from 'serious dark fantasy' to 'wacky adventures of castle "queer".
Lore in DA is usually given by some old cunts who were there when the events have happened or some nerds with reliable proofs. The excuse of unreliable source does not work here.

How's that Cyrodillian jungle in oblivion doing for you? Oh right, they changed that. Liked seeing all those roman imperials in TES III and V, and not in any other game. Loving all those other references to CHIM in the series that definitely aren't just MKult fan fiction and wishful thinking. What is this bullshit about tone and atmosphere? People have been whining nonstop about consistency whiplash in the TES games for years now. Most of the same style of jokes in Origins exists in Inquisition, you just like to think that party members quipping to each other but also some of them are gay now makes it a wholly different experience.

i find it amusing that the Elder scrolls is literally just a bunch of conflicting nonsense written by authors with biases on purpose and everyone goes "yay! deep lore!" and Dragon age does the exact same thing and people scream that the lore is being "raped" or whatever. ya'll dont know what you want
Elder Scrolls lore is also, frankly, just much more original and idiosyncratic. Most fantasy worlds pull from a pretty narrow set of influences, and tend to have races act as stand ins for real life cultures. Or just be a generic synthesis of many similar cultures. I'm sure there are similarities between the Dunmer culture and irl ones but at no point in Morrowind did I feel like I was experiencing a reskin of something from real life. Whereas in Dragon Age we have shit like humans oppressing elves as a metaphor for racism, and elves as a representative of native Americans, and magic lobotomies for dangerous mages, and magical conversion therapy, and what is basically the Catholic church. Elder Scrolls is pretty much always a believable world, because it isn't some sort of allegory for real life, and it's referential aspects are referential towards much more obscure material or itself.

Jesus christ, you guys are really that impressed by basic Gnostic concepts being adapted into fantasy, you guys are the fantasy fandom's equivalent of cubicle boomers putting Dilbert comics on their cubicle walls because "look! funny comic! boss say not smart thing!!!" lol literally read any non-mainstream fantasy, message me for a list of non-shit, non-generic fantasy works.


i find it amusing that the Elder scrolls is literally just a bunch of conflicting nonsense written by authors with biases on purpose and everyone goes "yay! deep lore!" and Dragon age does the exact same thing and people scream that the lore is being "raped" or whatever. ya'll dont know what you want
But that's simply not the case: at least not anymore. Yes, DA lore was constructed in a way not too different from the way TES lore is structured. Your (players) knowledge of the world must be a form of interpretation of conflicting narratives – because they’re all there is, save for a very selected range of events with which you directly interact with. Even is the latter cases though TES games used to be very careful to maintain this dubiousness surrounding what’s going on, Morrowind is the classic and best example: we do not really know what exactly happened in this game. Was the prophecy genuine or was it simply a manipulation (by Azura, Vivec, the emperor, what gives)? What really happened at the Red Mountain (a background drama which is in fact the true plot of Morrowind, you have to dig quite deep to get that though)? What’s the Heart, what’s the nature of Ur’s existence and his true goals? We will never know definite answers to these questions even though we sort of interact with these events and these people. TES games are – or, precisely, used to be – written in this way on purpose. You almost never get ‘the truth’ – you are served ‘someone’s truth’ and that’s a world of difference.

Bro it's literally just Ralph McQuarrie and Jim Froud art mixed with Runequest, you are massively, massively over-emphasizing the value morrowind brings to the table. This claim that "TES games are - or used to be" this way means nothing, it was literally just Morrowind that rolled with that shit. I've actually beaten TES I and II along with the rest of the series, even managed to play through Redguard and Battlespire - Morrowind is LITERALLY the only game written with any vagueness at all, and its not nearly as vague as your dumb ass would like to think it is. Every single Bethesda game is a relatively light-hearted adventure with a fairly generic 'save the world' plot. TESII is a bit more intrigue based (and honestly features way more intrigue than the consolized trash story morrowind has (we will pretend u prophecy. wait, u am prophecy!!!!) but TES I, IV and V, so the majority of the mainline series is "there is a crisis. you must do the thing to end the crisis."

It really must be said this is such a trash medium, if a basic as hell story like Morrowind's can be held up as a pinnacle of story telling by the morons of the Codex. The Legend of Zelda literally does the exact same story (but with good mechanics) with every single iteration? lololol

Now, DA used to be similar. DA:O has a lot of lore which is pure speculation and where you can clearly see blatant lines where propaganda of different sides intersect and fight eachother. And on top of that there are some questions which are clearly written not to have definite answers to. Who’s/what’s the Maker? What’s the Black City? What’s the deal with the darkspawn? There’s a lot of that and yes, it gives this setting quality. It enables speculation, it creates a space for creative vagueness.

Dropping of this narrative strategy is where TES and DA differ fundamentally. DA, starting from DA2 and going full on with this in DA:I, just started to straightforwardly explain the setting in most mundane, cliché and worn out way imaginable. All that is mysterious and esoteric is just normal stuff but it’s old and forgotten – that’s certified boredom, it’s the most tedious of possible narrative strategies. It’s plainly speaking not interesting. And people complain about this because series started in a different place. Better place.

Oh, they're explaining everything? Okay, what are the Darkspawn? Where did they come from?
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
you guys are really that impressed by basic Gnostic concepts being adapted into fantasy
you do know the average rpg is just forgotten realms right

bro was this you? lol
BvNxd6f.jpg
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,085
The human-populated portions of Tamriel are pulp fantasy, with each province based on a real-world historical culture, but this type of setting is vastly preferable to the generic pseudo-medieval monoculture type of setting best exemplified by the Forgotten Realms. Moreover, TES III: Morrowind was quite imaginative with a more or less sui generis culture for the dunmer, departing from the pulp fantasy schema, and there are many other creative elements to the Elder Scrolls lore, especially pertaining to the remaining non-human provinces and peoples. Unfortunately, Bethesda since Morrowind has been risk-averse, and the best that can be hoped from them is a somewhat competent pulp fantasy setting, as in the pseudo-vikings of TES V: Skyrim, which was an improvement from the exceptionally bland version of Cyrodiil appearing in TES IV: Oblivion. I've been expecting Bethesda to return to some combination of High Rock and Hammerfell for TES VI, simply because they now lack the imagination and impetus to utilize any non-human province, and those two human provinces haven't appeared since TES II: Daggerfall. :M
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
with a fairly generic 'save the world' plot.
"So you just want to save the world?"
Yes.
"You don't want to play our new module and be a gay tranny serving drinks at a bar?"
No.
This is literally not even related to our discussion of TES and DA lore. Please go to the appropriate thread.


The human-populated portions of Tamriel are pulp fantasy, with each province based on a real-world historical culture, but this type of setting is vastly preferable to the generic pseudo-medieval monoculture type of setting best exemplified by the Forgotten Realms. Moreover, TES III: Morrowind was quite imaginative with a more or less sui generis culture for the dunmer, departing from the pulp fantasy schema, and there are many other creative elements to the Elder Scrolls lore, especially pertaining to the remaining non-human provinces and peoples. Unfortunately, Bethesda since Morrowind has been risk-averse, and the best that can be hoped from them is a somewhat competent pulp fantasy setting, as in the pseudo-vikings of TES V: Skyrim, which was an improvement from the exceptionally bland version of Cyrodiil appearing in TES IV: Oblivion. I've been expecting Bethesda to return to some combination of High Rock and Hammerfell for TES VI, simply because they now lack the imagination and impetus to utilize any non-human province, and those two human provinces haven't appeared since TES II: Daggerfall. :M

Morrowind:
ninjas
"cartels"
straw hats
ralph macquarrie art
jim froud art
rice farms

wow! so unique! I am literally nutting directly onto my keyboard! It's just shit ripped directly from runequest, one of the most generic games ever MADE bro
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
1,284
with a fairly generic 'save the world' plot.
"So you just want to save the world?"
Yes.
"You don't want to play our new module and be a gay tranny serving drinks at a bar?"
No.
This is literally not even related to our discussion of TES and DA lore. Please go to the appropriate thread.
No! You did make part of discussion when you did criticise save world plot! You did!
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,736
Whereas in Dragon Age we have shit like humans oppressing elves as a metaphor for racism, and elves as a representative of native Americans, and magic lobotomies for dangerous mages, and magical conversion therapy, and what is basically the Catholic church.

Real life analogies are fine as a storytelling tool after all fiction as a genre started as means of critiquing reality without directly mentioning reality. The problem is that Blotware writers either do not understand or have an insanely warped understanding of the real world and their writing is exceptionally shit as a result.
The best way I can explain is through a direct comparison F:NV is not well written because it lets you join the (fascist) Legion or (neo-capitalist) House but because it puts reasonable explanations why someone would want to join either. Its not just a bunch "mu-ha-ha" villains that just bribe you with a slightly better quest reward but complete and valid perspectives on the world and its problems. They might be flawed and you might disagree with them but they are hardly irrational or evil for the sake of being evil. It comes from the basic realization that nobody wants or aims to be the villain and them not being squeaky clean 100% of the time changes nothing about that fact. The real world conflict of ideologies is taken and applied in the environment of the Fallout post-apocalypse. Ceaser directly references real-world literature and nobody has ever complained about F:NV using real life analogs. They work because they are true to their realworld versions(even if only superficially).

With Bloatware stories however they only work with an extremely simplified version of reality that is usually meant only for pre-schoolers. Something meant for an underdeveloped brain that lacks the neuron density and experience to understand the complexities of certain topics. So instead of writing about racism they simply write about highschool bullies who bully the good boi elves because... well because that is what bullies do and finito. There is no reason beyond "they are elves m'kay" and even if there is an implication of one its usually quickly swept aside as a anomaly and not a representation of a wider trend. The message is never anything beyond "bad is bad". So not only are they using the wrong stand-ins but they are also using them in the most tone deaf manner possible.
 

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