Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup questions/thread

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
Felids? Not really furries, since they are supposed to be a straight up cat. Not a cat-person, but a housecat; like they can't use wands because no hands. Kenkus are furries though I guess

Felids are pretty boring though. Kinda like Demigods, because they just remove a lot of gameplay options and the fun of having to concentrate on what's left is less than the fun of what is taken away. Having super speed and an unarmed bonus and general other early game advantages also makes the best part of the game (like D:2 to Lair) much lamer
 

7hm

Scholar
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
644
The fun thing about Felids is that you can speedrun like crazy with them. Especially with FeBes.

I got to Zot by turn ~45k with a FeBe. Died, but whatever.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,644
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
It's a roguelike. Why would it matter if there's a furry race?

edit: ASCII furries

ascii.jpg
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
On reflection mermaids, nagas, kobolds, draconians, minotaurs and centaurs are also furries
 

desocupado

Magister
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
1,802
Do demonspawn end up with level 3 in all the mutations they get?

I've been playing them lately, and they fucking suck. I pick melee backgrounds, because most mutations are more useful for a melee char, but that -1 in everything really hurts them early.

I was reaching the lair very, very rarely, until I said "fuck this shit" and picked the Wizard background, memorized mephitic cloud, disabled all magic skills and picked a melee weapon. Then I got far, but died to the fucking minotaur in the labyrinth. I'm never quite sure how strong he is, and I thought I could take him on...

Anyway, I almost never get 3 levels of the same mutation, and at some point my demonspawn just stop mutating. I'm wondering if they're supposed to get the mutations level 3 only rarely, and most of the time get only the levels 1 and 2.
 

7hm

Scholar
Joined
Oct 29, 2010
Messages
644
desocupado said:
Do demonspawn end up with level 3 in all the mutations they get?

I've been playing them lately, and they fucking suck. I pick melee backgrounds, because most mutations are more useful for a melee char, but that -1 in everything really hurts them early.

I was reaching the lair very, very rarely, until I said "fuck this shit" and picked the Wizard background, memorized mephitic cloud, disabled all magic skills and picked a melee weapon. Then I got far, but died to the fucking minotaur in the labyrinth. I'm never quite sure how strong he is, and I thought I could take him on...

Anyway, I almost never get 3 levels of the same mutation, and at some point my demonspawn just stop mutating. I'm wondering if they're supposed to get the mutations level 3 only rarely, and most of the time get only the levels 1 and 2.

You eventually get the level 3 mutation.

Demonspawn are one of the strongest races in the game.

-1 apts are pretty much not a big deal at all.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
You have to be a little careful with gods, e.g. divine favor with Okawaru will tank if you get the demonic guardian mutation that starts spamming imps everywhere when you are in a high threat situation; they count as allies and Oki gets mad every time an ally dies. But generally demonspawn are really good because they are fairly tough early on and have a good chance to get a grossly powerful early mutation that makes the early game trivial and by the midgame they'll have a nice bunch of them

Most melee-focused characters have a problematic early game unless they get some good loot early. Enemies just do tons of damage compared to your defense at that point so the benefits of doing damage from far away are huge. Only a few melee archetypes (berserkers, trolls, etc) have good enough durability+damage out of the box to power through the early game as stupidly as a typical caster or whatever can
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
Yeah I think demonspawn are a good race. THe thing is, they get very good hit points and stat gain, also the mutations, and they are not especially bad at anything. They can worship most gods. Also, barring issues caused by mutation, they can use all armor and so on. So really they are just super-powered humans with slightly lower than av skill gain in most areas (but definitely not all).

They do mutate at higher levels, and the final set of mutations you get tends to be pretty damn potent in my experience.

In the versions I played they seemed pretty well-balanced; probably one of the easiest builds in the early levels is Demonspawn Gladiator with a trident (no shield). THat, or maybe a monk. It gets dicier later on depending on whether you can find some decent equipment or spellbooks to flesh it out; also some mutations obviously are more kickass in the early game than others.
 

desocupado

Magister
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
1,802
Well, in my experience, they're squishy. The same Demonspawn Gladiator (with a trident) and Monk are the ones that I have most trouble with.

Now I'm getting wizard ones and turning them into fighters, and I'm dying because I'm stupid, not because of their squishyness.

I disagree that it is a "most melee archetypes have trouble early on" issue. While not a cakewalk, in my experience, it's certainly easier to go through the early game with a Mountain Dwarf Fighter, Minotaur Fighter, Hill Orc Fighter, than it is with demonspawn.

Hell, I had less difficulty with a Mummy Necromancer than I'm having with a Demonspawn.

Anyway, I'll keep trying. Even if I'm renewing my hatred for orc priests. I hated them with all my heart, then I learned how to deal with them, and it subsized. But to a squishyspawn, it goes like this with me.

"An orc priest. Alone. I can take him, I've killed hundreds of those guys at this XP level"

(my brain forgets to tell me it was with other backgrounds)

A few seconds later, I'm at 22 hp, and the priest is still on green.

"Why the fuck I can't hit this thing?!?! Fuck, I gotta run away, I've got no potions."

SMITE SMITE SMITE

:rage: :despair:

EDIT: I don't even want good mutations. They're a death sentence. Demonic Guardian, Large Bone Plates, Rough Black Scales, Powered by Death, Iridescent Scales? Fuck that shit!

My best demonspawn chars always have the shittiest mutations. Except Sense Surroundings, because if I get that, I quit the game and start again.
 

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
Developer
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
5,589
Location
Jordan, Minnesota
Project: Eternity
Can someone tell, how the fuck to play with a transmuter? I've read they are one of the best classes (especially with sludge elf), but mine tend to die horribly. Never took one further than the first few levels of Lair. Very early game is especially terrible. Damned goblins can easily kill me on level 1, when I get to cast evaporation I have no answer to imps, and of course standard orc priest fare.
WHAT DO
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
D:1 problems: try to avoid hobgoblins and armed goblins/kobolds until you get to level 2 at least if at all possible (true of all builds that are weak at the very beginning).

Imps you just ignore for the most part, if one won't stop chasing you just lead it to an up staircase to leave it behind it on an earlier level.

Once you're in lair I am assuming you are able to cast ice form or blade hands, either of which is good enough, you need to put all of your XP into dodging. The flip from early game to midgame with melee characters is all about building up defense instead of relying on your ability to kiil all the early game dangerous shit in one or two hits. If you have an evade from like 25-30 and normal transmuter damage output you should be able to wade through lair without extravagant use of consumables.

Orc priests and wizards you see before you are pretty damn deep should be considered like uniques - major dangers not to be fucked with under most circumstances; orc packs that *might* have a priest just out of your LOS should be treated as major dangers. Just run away unless you have a completely dependable way to disable/kill them quickly, or you are at a fairly high level of general toughness. They aren't worth much XP either so there is no incentive to mess with them.
 

desocupado

Magister
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
1,802
hoverdog said:
Can someone tell, how the fuck to play with a transmuter? I've read they are one of the best classes (especially with sludge elf), but mine tend to die horribly. Never took one further than the first few levels of Lair. Very early game is especially terrible. Damned goblins can easily kill me on level 1, when I get to cast evaporation I have no answer to imps, and of course standard orc priest fare.
WHAT DO

Oh, I can answer that. Because I'm awesome. Actually it's because I've played transmuters a fuckton and died a fuckton and learned shit somehow.

First, you're disabling spellcasting and fighting for a while. Early on, leave only Unarmed Combat, Dodging and Transmutations up. Remember to disable Fire Magic and Poison Magic as soon as you can, so they don't drain XP.

After 2 or 3 levels in unarmed combat and dodging, get spellcasting and fighting training again.

Second, you're memorizing fullsome distilation and making potions of every mosnter that leaves contaminated chunks and poisonous chunks. You want a fuckton of those. You're also picking up arrows from the ground, runed ones are better, you should have at least around 50 arrows on you all the time, the more the merrier.

You see a Snake, a jelly, an Imp or a Phantom, you (w)ield those arrows and spend your whole mana in sticks to snakes. If it starts dying, you help your minions. If it doesn't your minions will protect you by being in the way while you flee. With the exception of the Snake, all of those are immune to confusion, so, that's how you kill those. Ice beasts might be too though for your snakes. We'll deal with that later.

After a while, you'll be able to memorize Spider Form. This one is your bread and butter for a while, you hit HARDER THEN YOUR NORMAL FORM while in spider form, you have a fuckton of evasion, and you poison shit 75% of the time you hit. On top of that, you also move faster, so you can (and should) use it to flee if necessary.

So, hard enemies (orc warriors, orc priests, whatever you have trouble killing normally) are dealt like this, you evaporate a confusion potion, go in spider form, and hit them a few times until they die, or at least are very poisoned.

Beware, in Spider Form, you're harder to hit, but you have no AC. If something hits you, it's gonna hurt like a motherfucker. If you get hit ONCE, you might as well flee, because the second hit can kill you.

You use Spider Form to kill Ice beasts, they're immune to poison, but your hit is harder and evasion higher in spider form, so you should be able to kill those.

Finally, at some point you'll want to train Transmutations to level 10, to be able to cast Blade Hands. This spell gives you a LOT of damage. It's strong enough to last you the whole game, because it scales with dex, str and unarmed combat skill.

Hydras are going to be a problem for you. You have three options, Ice form, which gives you poison immunity and a stronger attack, a High powered wand, or fleeing.

I recommend the later two, in my experience Ice form just doesn't cut it early on, the damage boost ain't enough, and hydras hit hard.

Anything else, post here.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
Makhleb would be my first choice but I think they just nerfed him some. But in any case he gives you incredibly powerful summons and mediocre conjurations for a very cheap skill investment, stuff transmutations doesn't cover, plus some HP and MP regeneration on kills (that was what was nerfed). Just don't summon shit with invocations <10 or when you are already in trouble, because sometimes they appear hostile - rather summon a demon when you are still at full hp and have escape options. But if you handle them correctly you can dependably summon demons that will rip through problem enemies and uniques very early.

Okawaru or Elyvilon are also excellent. If I saw an early altar for one of those I'd take it immediately, if you have to wait until you get to temple go Makhleb.

Kiku also can help immediately if you want to branch but it takes some finesse. The rest either take forever to mean anything or just suck. Although I don't have much familiarity with Ashenzari.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
Yeah the main thing with transmuters is learn to use distillation and the hurl potion spell early on. Be sure to let corpses get ripe before distilling them, that way you get nastier stuff. I remember sticks to snakes was pretty badass with a dedicated summoner, but I am not too sure about using it with a transmuter... I suppose if it keeps you alive it's worthwhile though. Once you're able to cast blade hands you'll be in good shape for a while.
 

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
Developer
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
5,589
Location
Jordan, Minnesota
Project: Eternity
Talk about RNG. My transmuter got brutally yet tastefully raped - while running away from an orc priest, Konstancja entered a chamber full of... orcs, including magicians and priests too of course. All that on level 3.
So I rolled a DDNe, whom I tried at the very beginning, several months ago. Just on level 1 I found a ring of teleport control, a short sword of speed and a mace of draining (a wet dream of every necromancer)! Add to it a ring of magical power, +2 robe +Ne taken from the corpse of Blork the orc (he was a real bitch to kill in that outfit) and -3 cursed boots {rPois Dex+4 Int+3 Acc+1 Stlth++} bought in an antique shop - and Marek has just started exploring DL6!
But he won't live too long, I think, I have a problem with Necros in the early midgame. It's that Pain and Vamp Drain don't cut it anymore, and finding suitable books by yourself takes some luck (I can't complain yet though). I could have chosen Kiku or Sif Muna as my god to give me those, but Makhleb is the only one really suitable for a deep dwarf. any advice?
 

desocupado

Magister
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
1,802
Actually, draining is not better for necromancers, you're thinking about the pain brand.

@Mister Stone. Well, sticks to snakes is from the transmutation school. Why would it be good on a summoner? You're not thinking of another spell?

EDIT: I HOPE THE MOTHERFUCKER WHO INVENTED THE KILLER BEES IN THIS GAME GETS ASS AIDS.

EDIT2: Thing that gets me about this game is, some race combinations are royally fucked at the early/mid part of the game, just before the lair. Just now, with my Demonspawn Gladiator, I saw a fuckload of bees on d:8. Fine, I'll not engage them. I just went another way and went to d:9. In D:9 I find orc warriors. Which I also can't kill without consumables, and I'm not talking healing potions only, I'm talking Wands and potions of speed/berserk. I flee from those, go stairs up, and find guess what? MORE orc warriors. I teleport and land IN THE MIDDLE OF THE KILLER BEES I FLED FROM. Fine, I teleport again, while chugging heal wounds and healing like crazy. I resume my exploration, go to d:9 again, only to find... YAKS! Which, you might guess, I can't kill either. My char had trained nothing but evasion and polearms, maybe fighting was on, dunno.

There was other stuff too, I know I teleported 4 times fleeing from stuff I couldn't kill, and there was a time I landed by the side of a sky beast, an ogre and a giant toad. I could kill the giant toad, if he was alone, but not the ogre or the sky beast. So, more consumables down the drain (berserking).

In short, there's a point where, depending on race/background/loot, you can't kill ANYTHING. You can flee, but if you go deeper, you're only going to find harder stuff. On d:10 Giants start appearing, oh, and Unseen Horrors. I think I've found Unseen Horrors on D:9, but not in this game.
 

desocupado

Magister
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
1,802
I'm level 12, and all I got is Sense Surroundings 1, AC +1, and Life Protection 1.

OBVIOUSLY, this is my best demonspawn char so far.

EDIT: Died, to my own stupidity, on lair 8. A tree killed me.

Killed from afar by a spriggan druid (11 damage)
... awoken angry trees
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
D'oh they changed Sticks to Snakes. It used to be transmutation/summons now it's not in the summoner book anymore.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
With a DL9 demonspawn gladiator you should have access to either berserk (from Trog if nothing else) or Makhleb's *** summons either of which can kill basically anything you need them to. You do not have the aptitudes to get by to use a longer term god like Okawaru (since the might nerf) and certainly not one of the various scrub gods that are useless before very lategame. You should also hop in the first plate mail you see. Melee characters need those gimmicks really fucking bad, ASAP.
 

sirfink

Scholar
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
290
Transmuters in the early game aren't too difficult at all if you just stick to evaporating potions. The problem I have with them in the mid game is you end up with a shit ton of potions in your inventory, and as a caster you don't have much strength so you're easily encumbered. The potion making/evap mechanic is kinda fun and unique, but it's much easier in the long run to just cast Mephitic Cloud (an early game staple for most casters).

The later trans spells -- ice Form, statue form -- are great but finicky. Many are noisy to cast, making stealth not very useful and they always seem to expire at the worst of times.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
Another nice thing I recall about Transmuters is branching into Earth Elemental Magic (or vice versa). Not sure if that really holds up in the current game, but the two schools seemed to complement well, since Earth magic had a lot of transmutation hybrid spells. Getting the earth magic books made it a lot easier for me.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
I fired up a recently-downloaded .10 trunk binary for my first Crawl game in a while. Made a draconian transmuter. Game went smoothly as I checked out some of the tweaks they'd put in (my favorite shit as always: new vaults, portals and branch ends). The new experience system (on manual) is nice and less tedious for people that know the game but I wonder if it messes up the learning process for new players - knowing that for example an ogre gives about fifty times more XP than an orc seems kinda obfuscated.

Got the snake and swamp runes easily, was cruising around in red dragon form (red draconian breath is an amazing gimmick) being retarded by leaving on a stasis amulet I'd used in the snake branch end and not wearing my ring of cold resistance, got killed by a pack of white ugly things by trying to blink after letting them run me down to half HP in a round. Dead. Good old Crawl Alzheimers still in effect.
 

desocupado

Magister
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
1,802
The new skill system is a godsend. I agree with all you said about the xp values, but OMG I DON'T HAVE TO FIND AN IMP AND HOLD ALT TO TRAIN FIGHTING WITH A CASTER ANYMORE.

Killed myself at least once doing that too.

Check out the "new" Labyrinth. Mechanically it's the same, but it looks MUCH better now. They also did some changes to the Abyss.

The Octopode race seems like it's gonna be fun to play with.

Only thing I don't quite like is the non-integer skill system. Dunno why, I just think it makes stuff more messy.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom