From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lutte]

Spoiler

When she hits the top, she'll stop porting. She's basically like that Castle Crystal Sage in DS3.

Spoiler

Err, this is what I mean by is there something I missed, because she just didn't, stop porting. I killed all the phantoms, then the cunt made me run in circles. I very rarely, managed to get a hit in, because she'd keep spamming moves like that delayed magic that force you to dodge, and by the time I dodged, she already ported further back, and the final arena to fight her is a circular area where you can continue running in literal circles for the ages to come.
This is for the non-inverted tower encounter.
The inverted encounter didn't do that.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Spoiler

When she hits the top, she'll stop porting. She's basically like that Castle Crystal Sage in DS3.

Spoiler

Err, this is what I mean by is there something I missed, because she just didn't, stop porting. I killed all the phantoms, then the cunt made me run in circles. I very rarely, managed to get a hit in, because she'd keep spamming moves like that delayed magic that force you to dodge, and by the time I dodged, she already ported further back, and the final arena to fight her is a circular area where you can continue running in literal circles for the ages to come.
This is for the non-inverted tower encounter.
The inverted encounter didn't do that.

Spoiler

I fought both versions. If she never stopped porting that would bug me too. I'll clarify that I fought her after the 1.03 patch and since you pushed through the game so quickly (while I was still screwing around with various alts and restarting like 10x), maybe it was something that was bugged and quietly fixed. Maybe try it again and see if you have a better experience your next time through.

 

[mediocrepoet]

1) RPG player: do many people look at Souls games as an RPG experience? This legitimately makes me curious, because I'd say they're atmospheric action games with an RPG progression system bolted on.

They definitely have enough stuff on the RPG side to be considered RPGs. Very actiony RPGs, but still.

2) typical RPG players who play for experience rather than challenge: I don't think this is true except for female gamers. And Porky. But whatever, not looking for an action challenge (as opposed to a tactical challenge) I'd probably agree with. There's a reason I don't often play games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden and am not the guy busting out S ranks when I do.

I think you are confusing experience with something else. Games like Fallout 1/2, Planescape: Torment, Gothic 1/2, Deus Ex, Witcher games, Baldur's Gate, Betrayal at Krondor, etc, all these games, which are beloved here, they weren't about challenging yourself, they were about the experience. Experiencing post-nuclear war wastes or conspiracy future or a cool fantasy universe, that's what RPGs and video games in general are about, the holy grail of gaming. Challenge and competition you can get in other stuff, but experiencing cool virtual worlds and actively participating in them, that's unique to gaming.

Agreed across the board. Probably a sign of the apocalypse.

 

[Olinser]

What the fuck kind of autistic pants-on-head retarded moron tries to fight Rykard with 619 HP.

 

[Lutte]

Spoiler

I fought both versions. If she never stopped porting that would bug me too. I'll clarify that I fought her after the 1.03 patch and since you pushed through the game so quickly (while I was still screwing around with various alts and restarting like 10x), maybe it was something that was bugged and quietly fixed. Maybe try it again and see if you have a better experience your next time through.

Maybe I'll give it a look since I'm mostly done with the NG+ boss runs. Yeah, that was pre 1.03, in fact it was also before I respecced to int too, what happened was a major motivator for me in looking if int was viable because I thought if I saw anything like it in the future I didn't want to pull a bow anymore.

Ironically, I barely used any of the game spells after respeccing besides just trying them out on open world mobs and balking after seeing how much better the weapon arts were, and I didn't stumble upon people like miriam anymore.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Maybe I'll give it a look since I'm mostly done with the NG+ boss runs. Yeah, that was pre 1.03, in fact it was also before I respecced to int too, what happened was a major motivator for me in looking if int was viable because I thought if I saw anything like it in the future I didn't want to pull a bow anymore.

Ironically, I barely used any of the game spells after respeccing besides just trying them out on open world mobs and balking after seeing how much better the weapon arts were, and I didn't stumble upon people like miriam anymore.

You should let us know if this is something that changed, I'm curious because I think it would be an undocumented change.

Re: spells, I think it's weird that sorcery is pretty one note and anything interesting, various damage types, status effects, etc. is all faith based. Other than that, I still think it's meant to be something you super specialize in or don't bother with short of maybe occasionally using a pebble to pull enemies or hit a particular damage type or something. Some of the equipment gives up to 30% damage to certain spell types and there are things that give bonuses to more things for less of a bonus (e.g. all of sorcery for 4%/8%, while things that give bonuses to certain spells may be more like 20%/30%), but it all stacks. Sometimes this stuff has penalties like increased damage to user. So I think if you really went down that path, you could probably make a viable caster, but it'd require dedication for whatever the payoff is. I'm sure people will make these sorts of videos if they haven't already. Will it be better than spamming moonveil's laser or whatever? No idea, but it's probably a viable alternative playstyle unless FS really screwed up the math.

 

[Sunri]

Field trip report to Lake of Rot:
"The simping life is hard. In my, by now, never ending quest to clap some doll cheeks, I have reached what appears to be a lake made entirely of syphilis. I wonder if this is a sign of things to come? As luck would have it, after 80 fucking hours I have finally unlocked the cookbook for penicillin."
...
"Hey, what's that in the middle of the...oh it's another Dragonkin, yeah not today you camera raping asshole."
...
"Oh God, it burns. I'm not even peeing and it still burns."
...
"OK, finally made it out. Let's see what's ahea....oh. It's the centipede cunts with homing missiles."

...
"New plan - stealth time."
...
"THERE'S A MOTHERFUCKING TREE SPIRIT BEHIND THE FUCKING CENTIPEDE CUNTS"

"Initial evaluation was incorrect. The lake is not made of syphilis but of Ebolaids. With syphilis."

Spoiler

 

[Olinser]

Maybe I'll give it a look since I'm mostly done with the NG+ boss runs. Yeah, that was pre 1.03, in fact it was also before I respecced to int too, what happened was a major motivator for me in looking if int was viable because I thought if I saw anything like it in the future I didn't want to pull a bow anymore.

Ironically, I barely used any of the game spells after respeccing besides just trying them out on open world mobs and balking after seeing how much better the weapon arts were, and I didn't stumble upon people like miriam anymore.

You should let us know if this is something that changed, I'm curious because I think it would be an undocumented change.

Re: spells, I think it's weird that sorcery is pretty one note and anything interesting, various damage types, status effects, etc. is all faith based. Other than that, I still think it's meant to be something you super specialize in or don't bother with short of maybe occasionally using a pebble to pull enemies or hit a particular damage type or something. Some of the equipment gives up to 30% damage to certain spell types and there are things that give bonuses to more things for less of a bonus (e.g. all of sorcery for 4%/8%, while things that give bonuses to certain spells may be more like 20%/30%), but it all stacks. Sometimes this stuff has penalties like increased damage to user. So I think if you really went down that path, you could probably make a viable caster, but it'd require dedication for whatever the payoff is. I'm sure people will make these sorts of videos if they haven't already. Will it be better than spamming moonveil's laser or whatever? No idea, but it's probably a viable alternative playstyle unless FS really screwed up the math.

The main problem with sorcery is that they carried over the previous system of no natural FP regen, but the problem is that there are SIGNIFICANTLY more enemies in the open world than previous games had you fight. Since you have to fight significantly more enemies and some of them are complete damage sponges, it just feels horrible to use expensive sorcery, even with the flask restoration you get back nowhere near what you have to spend for a lot of enemies. Weapon arts are just more efficient, stronger, and faster in 90% of fights.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Maybe I'll give it a look since I'm mostly done with the NG+ boss runs. Yeah, that was pre 1.03, in fact it was also before I respecced to int too, what happened was a major motivator for me in looking if int was viable because I thought if I saw anything like it in the future I didn't want to pull a bow anymore.

Ironically, I barely used any of the game spells after respeccing besides just trying them out on open world mobs and balking after seeing how much better the weapon arts were, and I didn't stumble upon people like miriam anymore.

You should let us know if this is something that changed, I'm curious because I think it would be an undocumented change.

Re: spells, I think it's weird that sorcery is pretty one note and anything interesting, various damage types, status effects, etc. is all faith based. Other than that, I still think it's meant to be something you super specialize in or don't bother with short of maybe occasionally using a pebble to pull enemies or hit a particular damage type or something. Some of the equipment gives up to 30% damage to certain spell types and there are things that give bonuses to more things for less of a bonus (e.g. all of sorcery for 4%/8%, while things that give bonuses to certain spells may be more like 20%/30%), but it all stacks. Sometimes this stuff has penalties like increased damage to user. So I think if you really went down that path, you could probably make a viable caster, but it'd require dedication for whatever the payoff is. I'm sure people will make these sorts of videos if they haven't already. Will it be better than spamming moonveil's laser or whatever? No idea, but it's probably a viable alternative playstyle unless FS really screwed up the math.

The main problem with sorcery is that they carried over the previous system of no natural FP regen, but the problem is that there are SIGNIFICANTLY more enemies in the open world than previous games had you fight. Since you have to fight significantly more enemies and some of them are complete damage sponges, it just feels horrible to use expensive sorcery, even with the flask restoration you get back nowhere near what you have to spend for a lot of enemies. Weapon arts are just more efficient, stronger, and faster in 90% of fights.

This is quite possibly true, especially if you're speaking from experience of the mid and later game. At least in the early game, you can wipe out groups with well placed aoes which can get you flask refills. Other than that, these games have always been designed with the thought that even a caster will probably be more of a hybrid than a completely dedicated caster and it's relatively easy to come out ahead in flasks just by choosing your battles. Usually as long as I'm paying attention, I can "go infinite" for exploration in the open world. In dungeons where the flasks don't refill, the bonfire grace points usually aren't too bad, so there's a chance to refill like in the shorter games. As a result, I'm not entirely convinced of this. I think I'll probably try and do a dedicated caster at some point, if I don't start playing something else since the game is a pretty incredible time sink.

 

[cvv]

-Summon Ashes likely enabled the devs to get loose with boss difficulty. They can make it harder and more unfair knowing the player has a safety net of being able to summon help.

Dark Souls 1 had a good difficulty level of bosses, they were tough for the average RPG player, but could be overcome with some effort. But of course the kind of players I talked about above demanded something harder, for more challenge, and From Software has been trying to accommodate them since then

These two are the main reasons for the boss difficulty in ER - demands by hardcore fans and the ash summon system.

I've always known FS insistence on their innovative big brain solution to difficulty setting (no traditional difficulty options in the menu but you can summon if shit gets too hard for you) will bite them in the ass. ER is the most egregious example of that - most players will NOT be able to solo a good chunk of the ER bosses even if they practiced them for the rest of their miserable lives. But as soon as they summon the fight becomes trivial (with the exception of Melania - she's the first and only boss in FS history properly balanced for coop).

Look, Miyazaki, I know choosing your preferred diff. option from a roll-down menu is boring and uncool and gaijin...but it works. Unlike your big brain solution that devs wax ecstatic on conferences but that gives most players only two options IMPOSSIBRU and STORY MODE.

 

[NJClaw]

-About half the quests still require external guides to finish. Even if you saw you could talk to Ranni as a doll, did you really ask to talk more than twice when all you got was '...' in response both times?

I don't know about the Ranni doll, but I talked to the EVER-BRILLIANT GOLDMASK 30+ times in each location thinking I was going to discover something incredible.

 

[perfectslumbers]

The sorcerer progression:

"I'm gonna get cool spells and blast the enemies!" > "Damn this new spell I got kind of sucks... it does no damage and uses half my fp bar..." > "Oh an int weapon, let me use it to save fp!" > "Oh it has an interesting skill let me use it." > "Oh the skill does double the damage of my best spell for half the fp... I guess I'll just have to stick with this for the rest of the game."

she's the first and only boss in FS history properly balanced for coop

Excuse me, I believe you forgot The Skeleton Lords.

 

[Sunri]

-Summon Ashes likely enabled the devs to get loose with boss difficulty. They can make it harder and more unfair knowing the player has a safety net of being able to summon help.

Dark Souls 1 had a good difficulty level of bosses, they were tough for the average RPG player, but could be overcome with some effort. But of course the kind of players I talked about above demanded something harder, for more challenge, and From Software has been trying to accommodate them since then

These two are the main reasons for the boss difficulty in ER - demands by hardcore fans and the ash summon system.

I've always known FS insistence on their innovative big brain solution to difficulty setting (no traditional difficulty options in the menu but you can summon if shit gets too hard for you) will bite them in the ass. ER is the most egregious example of that - most players will NOT be able to solo a good chunk of the ER bosses even if they practiced them for the rest of their miserable lives. But as soon as they summon the fight becomes trivial (with the exception of Melania - she's the first and only boss in FS history properly balanced for coop).

Look, Miyazaki, I know choosing your preferred diff. option from a roll-down menu is boring and uncool and gaijin...but it works. Unlike your big brain solution that devs wax ecstatic on conferences but that gives most players only two options IMPOSSIBRU and STORY MODE.

What bosses are impossible for normal players in ER? There are many ways besides ashes that can help you with specific boss.

 

[NJClaw]

What bosses are impossible for normal players in ER? There are many ways besides ashes that can help you with specific boss.

I think that the problem is not that bosses are impossible, but that the requirements in terms of reaction times aren't even remotely comparable to those of the first games in the series. I mean, Knight Artorias was considered to be a demanding boss (and a dollar store Capra Demon, but that's a different story), but in Elden Ring it would look like a paraplegic cripple even compared to the slowest mob in existence.

There are tools to make fights easier, but they usually completely trivialize the challenge and I can see how they can feel like cheating.

 

[Sunri]

What bosses are impossible for normal players in ER? There are many ways besides ashes that can help you with specific boss.

I think that the problem is not that bosses are impossible, but that the requirements in terms of reaction times aren't even remotely comparable to those of the first games in the series. I mean, Knight Artorias was considered to be a demanding boss (and a dollar store Capra Demon, but that's a different story), but in Elden Ring it would look like a paraplegic cripple even compared to the slowest mob in existence.

Yea I can agree that there are attacks that are too fast to dodge on reaction but most of them are pokes that won't one shot your character so you either need to predict them or eat them up and heal you can also equip some big ass shield and poke boss when blocking, so there are ways to deal with this I'm also curious what specific boss he had in mind lol

 

[mediocrepoet]

What bosses are impossible for normal players in ER? There are many ways besides ashes that can help you with specific boss.

I think that the problem is not that bosses are impossible, but that the requirements in terms of reaction times aren't even remotely comparable to those of the first games in the series. I mean, Knight Artorias was considered to be a demanding boss (and a dollar store Capra Demon, but that's a different story), but in Elden Ring it would look like a paraplegic cripple even compared to the slowest mob in existence.

Yea I can agree that there are attacks that are too fast to dodge on reaction but most of them are pokes that won't one shot your character so you either need to predict them or eat them up and heal you can also equip some big ass shield and poke boss when blocking, so there are ways to deal with this I'm also curious what specific boss he had in mind lol

It also went with more things where you have to either jump (since it's not a retarded combination of actions now) or sprint to properly avoid. In that way it actually reminds me of Sekiro with its mikiri counters and things you had to jump instead of parry except with no kanji prompt. Actually, because I started to enjoy this sort of thing in ER, I was considering revisiting Sekiro to see if I enjoy it more now. Sometimes it takes me awhile to properly internalize mechanics and enjoy them, so I'll start out hating something and thinking it's BS and then appreciating it later.

 

[Wunderbar]

the requirements in terms of reaction times aren't even remotely comparable to those of the first games in the series. I mean, Knight Artorias was considered to be a demanding boss (and a dollar store Capra Demon, but that's a different story), but in Elden Ring it would look like a paraplegic cripple even compared to the slowest mob in existence.

meawhile Elden Ring's player character has basically the same abilities as a Dark Souls one, with an exception of jumping.

 

[Sunri]

What bosses are impossible for normal players in ER? There are many ways besides ashes that can help you with specific boss.

I think that the problem is not that bosses are impossible, but that the requirements in terms of reaction times aren't even remotely comparable to those of the first games in the series. I mean, Knight Artorias was considered to be a demanding boss (and a dollar store Capra Demon, but that's a different story), but in Elden Ring it would look like a paraplegic cripple even compared to the slowest mob in existence.

Yea I can agree that there are attacks that are too fast to dodge on reaction but most of them are pokes that won't one shot your character so you either need to predict them or eat them up and heal you can also equip some big ass shield and poke boss when blocking, so there are ways to deal with this I'm also curious what specific boss he had in mind lol

It also went with more things where you have to either jump (since it's not a retarded combination of actions now) or sprint to properly avoid. In that way it actually reminds me of Sekiro with its mikiri counters and things you had to jump instead of parry except with no kanji prompt. Actually, because I started to enjoy this sort of thing in ER, I was considering revisiting Sekiro to see if I enjoy it more now. Sometimes it takes me awhile to properly internalize mechanics and enjoy them, so I'll start out hating something and thinking it's BS and then appreciating it later.

Are they any attacks that require you to jump in order to avoid them? I always jumped last boss Elden Ring attack and Godfrey stomp, but I know that stomp can be also rolled, that's all.

 

[cvv]

I think that the problem is not that bosses are impossible

Yes because you're one of those people who can go through the games naked swinging salami.

Most people aren't like that tho. Just watch your regular, non-specialized tuber or streamer, the game is hilariously over their heads.

Traditional roll-down menu difficulty options may be boring and uncool but they work. We all have different natural levels of talent, coordination, skill. For some people no amount of training and grind will bring them close to solo bosses like Maliketh, Mogh, Melania, duo Foreskins or the final trio. Or there are people like me - I could solo them eventually but I'd need many hours of grind to do that. Just like I did finally beat Isshin but only after 6 hours of tries, after which there is no feeling of triumph and accomplishment anymore, only annoyance, weariness and the "great, it's done, now get this stupid fucking game as far away from me as possible" feeling.

This is NOT a great solution to difficulty. There are a couple of reflexive disagrees and NOs to my previous comment but nobody provided any actual counterarguments.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What bosses are impossible for normal players in ER? There are many ways besides ashes that can help you with specific boss.

I think that the problem is not that bosses are impossible, but that the requirements in terms of reaction times aren't even remotely comparable to those of the first games in the series. I mean, Knight Artorias was considered to be a demanding boss (and a dollar store Capra Demon, but that's a different story), but in Elden Ring it would look like a paraplegic cripple even compared to the slowest mob in existence.

Yea I can agree that there are attacks that are too fast to dodge on reaction but most of them are pokes that won't one shot your character so you either need to predict them or eat them up and heal you can also equip some big ass shield and poke boss when blocking, so there are ways to deal with this I'm also curious what specific boss he had in mind lol

It also went with more things where you have to either jump (since it's not a retarded combination of actions now) or sprint to properly avoid. In that way it actually reminds me of Sekiro with its mikiri counters and things you had to jump instead of parry except with no kanji prompt. Actually, because I started to enjoy this sort of thing in ER, I was considering revisiting Sekiro to see if I enjoy it more now. Sometimes it takes me awhile to properly internalize mechanics and enjoy them, so I'll start out hating something and thinking it's BS and then appreciating it later.

Are they any attacks that require you to jump in order to avoid them? I always jumped last boss Elden Ring attack and Godfrey stomp, but I know that stomp can be also rolled, that's all.

I don't think so. "Have to" is too strong, especially since there are rolls and weapon arts that give i-frames that can basically bypass anything. This is actually what I mainly disliked about Sekiro: Combat in the Souls games feels fairly freeform. You pick a build and approach things accordingly, whether at range, parrying, dodging, shield, whatever. Sekiro seemed to really want you to avoid attacks in a particular way and only that way. Which made it feel more like a rhythm game like DDR than anything to me.

What I will say about jumping is that it seems to me like it puts you in a better counterattack position due to the jump attack. So if you're fighting a crucible knight and jump his stomp, you can counter his head. If you can poise break a guy with the counters because you've kept up consistent pressure, then you get a freebie critical hit or just the chance to whale on him. Whereas rolling tends to either lead to weird panic roll or accidental multi-roll situations, or just take you out of position / take too long to properly counter. The flip side is that if you whiff your jump attack, your recovery is probably going to lead you to being stomped. I tend to think of it like frame advantage in fighting games: jump avoidance is taking something of a risk to gain frame advantage on a counter attack but possibly give the enemy frame advantage if you screw it up.

 

[perfectslumbers]

This is NOT a great solution to difficulty. There are a couple of reflexive disagrees and NOs to my previous comment but nobody provided any actual counterarguments.

I agree honestly. I was vehemently against the "easy mode," back in the earlier days but at this point I don't think an easy mode would take anything away from the games at all. The difficulty doesn't do anything for me anymore, it isn't interesting and doesn't make me immersed in the world like it did in DES and DS1. It's just there for the sake of it now, to live up to From Soft's reputation.

 

[ghostdog]

Other than that, these games have always been designed with the thought that even a caster will probably be more of a hybrid than a completely dedicated caster

As Cinders mod for DS3 has shown, with a regenerating mana pool and a few spell tweaks you can have a great time as a pure spellcaster. So this is basically FROM simply not trying/wanting to improve spellcasting in any meaningful way.

 

[monilloman]

After playing it some, I have to say Elden Ring is a continuation of From Software moving in the wrong direction, imho. They seem to be caught in this trap, where instead of improving the combat for its own sake, or adding elements their games were always weak in (story, dialogue, peaceful exploration, etc), they are stuck in an infinite loop, racing against players who just play looking for challenge.

This video + newest comments were a fun time yesterday

 

[mediocrepoet]

This is NOT a great solution to difficulty. There are a couple of reflexive disagrees and NOs to my previous comment but nobody provided any actual counterarguments.

I agree honestly. I was vehemently against the "easy mode," back in the earlier days but at this point I don't think an easy mode would take anything away from the games at all. The difficulty doesn't do anything for me anymore, it isn't interesting and doesn't make me immersed in the world like it did in DES and DS1. It's just there for the sake of it now, to live up to From Soft's reputation.

I think it would generally be resolved if they just improved the AI and move sets. By this I basically mean that enemies don't just arbitrarily have delayed swings unless they're winding up like the player does for a charged heavy attack, have arrows that have flight time and reasonable aggro distances rather than dickheads who are sniping you from across the map with shots that are some of the harder attacks to avoid in the game and do a lot of damage.

Other than that, I think part of it might be simply that it would be a lot of work to provide meaningfully different difficulty levels, assuming you're not just talking about a straight nerf like -50% damage taken. For example, if you wanted to make it easier to avoid a dragon's breath, maybe you'd want to decrease its aoe, or make it slower to come out. Each of those things would have to be tweaked for each difficulty level which may have implications for animation and so on. I assume this would make a lot of work where previously there was none. Would having some sort of difficulty selector or even an optional equippable item that basically dropped damage taken and increased damage done by a flat percentage be the sort of difficulty change you were looking for? Assuming that attacks are just as hard to avoid, etc.? It's not clear to me that stopping things from one shotting you and letting you play with like 400 hp for the entire game meaningfully changes difficulty if the problem is that you're too slow to avoid 75% of the attacks in the first place, or if you're spatially retarded and can't navigate the janky platforming, or if you can't figure out how to sprint through one of the "danger zone" gauntlets, etc. Like if you can't do it due to the timing and stuff, does it matter if it takes 8 times to kill you instead of 1-4?

I also assume that things like poise for the player and enemy would stay more or less the same as I figure that's a system where relatively small adjustments could have fairly significant impacts, from what I've seen of the mechanical explanations.

tl;dr When you want a different difficulty, what are you actually saying or looking for?

 

[cvv]

tl;dr When you want a different difficulty, what are you actually saying or looking for?

I think a simple buff/nerf to boss HP is the most nobrainer option. In Souls games boss HP is an important factor, oftentimes a boss fight is about killing a boss before it drains your flasks. Gideon is a good example - he has a lot of complex moves and does a ton of damage but he's not considered a problem bc he has a very small HP pool. I suspect on higher NGs he'll be a headache.

There are other straight up numbers changes you could implement - damage numbers, nerfed/buffed flasks count or Sacred Tears count, more/fewer mobs etc.

More interesting solutions would include nerfing delayed attacks, as you've suggested. They're a significant factor of difficulty bc suddenly a fight is not just about visually observing a boss and reacting to his movements, it's also about counting in your head. You could also remove some attacks completely for Easy/Story difficulties, like the Waterfowl dance. You could tone down boss' aggressiveness - 2nd phase Godfrey is only a problem bc he's constantly after you dick - or prolong windows a bit so that bosses don't relentlessly chain one combo into the next while you're near them.