Elite: Dangerous

[potatojohn]

What you mean no, they mention its seamless that should be, its a question of loading cells, this been basic since fucking Arena.

As long the physics are being applied (and that means gravity being simulated) it should be no different that that flying around a space station.

You can't simulate gravity in E:D because the max speed is 100m/s.

It would also take ridiculous amounts of time to get anywhere. From e.g. earth geostationary orbit, 35000km: 35000000 / 100 / 3600 / 24 = 4 days to land.

 

[J_C]

You can't simulate gravity in E:D because the max speed is 100m/s.

It would also take ridiculous amounts of time to get anywhere. From e.g. earth geostationary orbit, 35000km: 35000000 / 100 / 3600 / 24 = 4 days to land.

This just means that the game won't be 100% realistic (as it never meant to be), but seamless landing will be there if what the devs are telling is true.

The real question is whether you will be able to land on any planet in the galaxy, or just specific ones.

 

[potatojohn]

This just means that the game won't be 100% realistic (as it never meant to be), but seamless landing will be there if what the devs are telling is true.

The real question is whether you will be able to land on any planet in the galaxy, or just specific ones.

And how will it be made seamless?

Either you give up the speed limit (very unlikely, since they said they needed it for net code reasons), or the body sizes and distances (unlikely, a big selling point of E:D was that these were accurate)

 

[Ulminati]

4 days to land.

Someone tested it back in beta in a viper. It takes ~2,5 hours to get from the closest supercruise exit to the planet surface. I guess they could make the supercruise exit closer to the planet, but I think they will just go with another instancing from low orbit to atmosphere

 

[praetor]

You can't simulate gravity in E:D because the max speed is 100m/s.

100% bullshit. max speed is 2001c, here's video evidence for how dumb you are:



the only speeds you can't achieve in ED are between 450m/s and 30km/s

 

[Drakron]

And how will it be made seamless?

Seamless=no loading screen.

Gravity means pull, that means planetary bodies pull objects towards it so being on the surface of a planet will have a pull unlike in space.

Its simply a question of gravity being simulated so speed is limited and objects tend to be pulled towards the center (surface), if that can be done then planets are essentially as difficult to create as other objects, you just need to have a gravity pull set in the center of it.

Max speed is kinda irrelevant since due to friction there would be a structural collapse after certain speed is reached, this is also a case of setting a atmospheric zone globe were going over certain speeds will cause structural damage.

As long the simulator possibilities are solid its only a questing of setting up the different effects.

 

[potatojohn]

the only speeds you can't achieve in ED are between 450m/s and 30km/s

So, you can't achieve 99% of the speeds relevant to the discussion?

 

[DraQ]

Gravity means pull, that means planetary bodies pull objects towards it so being on the surface of a planet will have a pull unlike in space.

If you are ok with gravity that suddenly stops working when you're falling at 500m/s.

Its simply a question of gravity being simulated so speed is limited and objects tend to be pulled towards the center (surface), if that can be done then planets are essentially as difficult to create as other objects, you just need to have a gravity pull set in the center of it.

Since the gravity works by accelerating objects and speeds being limited mean that objects cannot be accelerated....

Max speed is kinda irrelevant since due to friction

What if you are on:

• The Moon
• Mercury
• Pluto
• any of the fuckload of effectively airless satellites in the remainder of our solar system
• any of the fuckload of effectively airless bodies in the remainder of our galaxy

?

 

[Drakron]

If you are ok with gravity that suddenly stops working when you're falling at 500m/s.

I have no idea what you are talking about, I simply said a planet have a gravitational pull, of course there are ranges but some point they are largely irrelevant as at most they would put the object in orbit.

It matters when the pull have detrimental effect on the vehicle trust, escape velocities and such.

Since the gravity works by accelerating objects and speeds being limited mean that objects cannot be accelerated....

Gravity works by pulling, its called a gravity well and what you call "accelerating" is just the effect of a object being attracted by it, since we are talking about spacecraft this is a question of their speed and since you can go in reverse its possible to create a situation were the spacecraft have to provide enough trust to escape the well.

What if you are on:

• The Moon
• Mercury
• Pluto
• any of the fuckload of effectively airless satellites in the remainder of our solar system
• any of the fuckload of effectively airless bodies in the remainder of our galaxy

?

Let me put what is Earth EV, its 11.2 km/s, this mean the game already CAN simulate escape velocity from Earth, so whats you point? Are you talking about crashing into a planet? this is going to depend on the mass of the object and its speed, the minimum impact velocity on Earth is 11 km/s so all of that is well within the 30 Km/s "maximum" speed of ED.

Of all the planetary bodies of the Sol system, only 2 have a EV higher that 30 km/s, thats Jupiter and Saturn ... the Moon? 2.4 Km/s.

Also I am sure you going to throw math at me but I think for the case of smaller planetoids this should be not much of a issue, when it comes to planets with atmosphere the size of Earth this might be a issue, not airless bodies because Mars EV is just 5 Km/ so I am not seeing a issue and that is not even considering that ED cannot go at speeds higher that 30 Km/s.

And that is not even considering structural collapse, they can just make it that if in a planetary body if total speed exceeds x Km/s then the frame starts to take damage and will be destroyed when reaching a total number

 

[praetor]

So, you can't achieve 99% of the speeds relevant to the discussion?

speeds for what? achieving LEO? for what, LARPing a satellite? you spergs are the best!

 

[potatojohn]

speeds for what? achieving LEO? for what, LARPing a satellite? you spergs are the best!

Speeds that you'd get if you simulated gravity. Why are you even here if you don't know what's being discussed?

 

[J_C]

You autists are so cute, arguing about physics in a videogame which can bend the rules any way it wants. Like they can't make up shit about when you are close enough to a planet, you enter its "instance" and you travel to the ground much faster than it would take in reality.

 

[potatojohn]

You autists are so cute, arguing about physics in a videogame which can bend the rules any way it wants.

This is a forum, right? Where we talk about things? And this is the thread where we talk about E:D? We're just discussing what "seamless" means. You have a problem with that?

Like they can't make up shit about when you are close enough to a planet, you enter its "instance" and you travel to the ground much faster than it would take in reality.

Is that what 'seamless' means to you? You get near a planet and enter a twilight zone where normal rules don't apply any more?

 

[J_C]

This is a forum, right? Where we talk about things? And this is the thread where we talk about E:D? We're just discussing what "seamless" means. You have a problem with that?


Is that what 'seamless' means to you? You get near a planet and enter a twilight zone where normal rules don't apply any more?

Well, as others have said before, in my book Seamless=no loading screen.

 

[praetor]

Speeds that you'd get if you simulated gravity. Why are you even here if you don't know what's being discussed?

lolwut? why the fuck would you get those exact speeds if you simulated gravity (edit: just to be clear "why would you need your ship to get those speeds")? nobody wants to be a sperg like you and draq and masturbate while larping satellites in geostationary orbits because it's fucking irrelevant for a game like ED. it's needless and boring. this isn't Kerbal so go play Kerbal if you want to larp satellites and wank in your mom's basements

This is a forum, right? Where we talk about things? And this is the thread where we talk about E:D? We're just discussing what "seamless" means. You have a problem with that?

seamless means no loading screens. as every exit/entering of supercruise or hyperspace is essentially a loading screen, it cannot be seamless by definition. it has nothing to do with gravity or

btw have you ever played any game in your life for longer than 30 seconds? because i can't imagine you playing anything without getting a stroke within 5 minutes because of all the unrealistic stuff in all the games ever made

 

[DraQ]

Let me put what is Earth EV, its 11.2 km/s, this mean the game already CAN simulate escape velocity from Earth, so whats you point? Are you talking about crashing into a planet? this is going to depend on the mass of the object and its speed, the minimum impact velocity on Earth is 11 km/s so all of that is well within the 30 Km/s "maximum" speed of ED.

Except ED's maximum speed isn't 30 km/s. It's 0.5 km/s or less, depending on ship.
You have ability to go from 30km/s to well into FTL but it still leaves gap of velocities no ship can achieve under any circumstances consisting of everything between 0.5 to 30 km/s and requires intentional use of special drive, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

This means that when falling towards the surface (especially with a bit of a running start) the gravity will simply stop working at certain point and it will be a point that will be routinely crossed during normal gameplay, so you will get a wonky on-off physics whenever doing something above a planet.

Also I am sure you going to throw math at me but I think for the case of smaller planetoids this should be not much of a issue, when it comes to planets with atmosphere the size of Earth this might be a issue, not airless bodies

It will be a problem on airless bodies because it will exclude the copout of friction/universal terminal velocity you specifically mentioned.

so I am not seeing a issue and that is not even considering that ED cannot go at speeds higher that 30 Km/s.

If ED just couldn't go at speeds higher than 30km/s everything would be just peachy - with lack of any sort of time compression forced by requirement for multiplayer there would be no way for a player to achieve this sort of velocity during normal gameplay and it could be further excluded by limiting delta-v you could carry on a ship (with a good in-universe rationale - why fly a massive fuel tincan when everyone is using FSD to actually get anywhere and conventional thrusters are only used for combat and all sorts of local maneuvering? It would be like fitting every car on the market with a towed fuel truck). Sadly it's not 30km/s, but at most 0.5 km/s and actual delta-v is not the limitation here.

And that is not even considering structural collapse, they can just make it that if in a planetary body if total speed exceeds x Km/s then the frame starts to take damage and will be destroyed when reaching a total number

Or they could make animated bunnies erupt from your dashboard and eat your face. It would achieve the same gameplay goal while making about the same amount of sense.

Is that what 'seamless' means to you? You get near a planet and enter a twilight zone where normal rules don't apply any more?

This. A game needs a consistent set of rules more than anything else. Just twisting them arbitrarily whenever 'necessary' is the hallmark of a shit game.

Of course when you make a game where the accessible gameworld adheres to real world physics but the gameplay does not, it inevitably starts bursting at the seams, and the more complex it gets the harder those tears are going to be to predict and ducttape over - what worked for a simplistic game with a sun, planet and a spacestation with no physics to speak of and no ability to even get close to anything but the latter, won't work for one where you have detailed simulated planetary system and can fly around planetary surface, or switch to a Mako buggy.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

my guess is that there will be no gravity at all: "you know, engines compensate to keep you still".

 

[Daedalos]

So, what's the consensus, is this shit or not?

Is it better than Star Citizen or comparable at all?

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

this is a barebone game. star citizen doesn't exist at all yet.

 

[J_C]

The game might need some improvement, but this is amazing:

Also, Elite needs this music ingame.

 

[DraQ]

lolwut? why the fuck would you get those exact speeds if you simulated gravity (edit: just to be clear "why would you need your ship to get those speeds")? nobody wants to be a sperg like you and draq and masturbate while larping satellites in geostationary orbits because it's fucking irrelevant for a game like ED. it's needless and boring.

By the same logic gravity in other games (FPS, RPG, etc. ) is only needed by people who want to LARP Willy E. Coyote.


I mean, why the fuck would you need gravity in Doom?

Spoiler

In short, those exact speeds are needed because they are going to happen while flying or fighting above a planet. And they are going to happen, because pretty much the main difference having a planet under your dogfight makes is that it's easier to dive, than climb, because gravity accelerates you (of course, you need to watch out for the second most important difference - you can run out of altitude when diving making your dive drop a letter - 'v' to be more specific). This means that with speed limit diving will turn off the gravity gravity at some point.

btw have you ever played any game in your life for longer than 30 seconds? because i can't imagine you playing anything without getting a stroke within 5 minutes because of all the unrealistic stuff in all the games ever made

Go play oblibians or something, kid.

 

[Drakron]

By the same logic gravity in other games (FPS, RPG, etc. ) is only needed by people who want to LARP Willy E. Coyote.

You dont want to go down that path.

Gravity isnt simulated, you have either jump distance and fall damage when thats actually implemented, simply put the effect it would have simply doesnt require the use of a accurate model.

In short, those exact speeds are needed because they are going to happen while flying or fighting above a planet. And they are going to happen, because pretty much the main difference having a planet under your dogfight makes is that it's easier to dive, than climb, because gravity accelerates you (of course, you need to watch out for the second most important difference - you can run out of altitude when diving making your dive drop a letter - 'v' to be more specific). This means that with speed limit diving will turn off the gravity gravity at some point.

Accurate Newtonian models arent used because simply put, few care about that aspect of the simulation to the point of complaining about it, their primary goal is dogfighting IN SPACE and the moment such system became too much of a burden since in essence you ARE asking one person to do the job of what would be the crew or 2 or more people and without computer assistance, this is like asing someone to maintain a F-117 airborne nevermind the fact its aerodynamically unstable and requires computer assistance.

And you asking players to do that against a AI that will have no such problems is the cherry of the fuck you cake.

If such spacecraft would exist then computer assistance would be standard otherwise they would be overtaxing to a one man crew, they would have a larger crew or be unmanned.

Combat sims at one point simplify mechanics either because Jesus Christ, you ARE asking the player to do the job of two (in case of double seaters such as the F/A-18 or AH-64) and doing it by flipping switches around, also cutting overall complicated calculations also reduces stress and improves performances.

Do you also complain when flight sims dont calculate win speed or lack flocks so you get a seagull sucked into the intake? How about clouds that reduce the effectiveness of radar? there are hundreds of things that are emulated at all, unsurprising "death by pigeon" will not go very high of what combat simulators will attempt at emulate.

 

[Metro]

Precisely. The number of people who buy a game like Elite who actually care about pure Newtonian physics is probably around 20% of the playerbase. Most folks just want pewpew open universe fighting/trading/whatever sim.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I need to remember this conversation when Codex criticizes Star Citizen for being a pewpew space game rather than a simulation.

 

[Metro]

That's the last thing I'd criticize Scam Citizen for...