Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[aweigh]

AW HELL YEAH! i been missing my werewolves :D

i need dat 6 wolf party rolling with +6's !

 

[Dorarnae]

hehe.
yeah you unlock werebeast, fairy and dragonewt there.
fairy is a bit tricky to unlock, there's a little puzzle where you need to step on some kind of clock(numbers in a certain order), I don't really understand the puzzle but itachan on youtube has it...

I think devilish is in the castle.

 

[aweigh]

DUDE I JUST GOT FUCKING WIPED BY AN AMBUSH ENCOUNTER WITH _FOUR_ IRON DRAGONS IN B6F.

I WAS PLAYING ON IRON MAN. I prolly could've won but in the previous fight i bungled the chest trap and half my team got poisoned, so 3 dudes died from poison fighting the dragons LOLOL



this time i'm gonna go do what i'm always saying: party full of valks!

 

[Dorarnae]

heh. valk are different in this one. it's just a tank that use spear with priest spell I think. btw isn't in elminage their skill allow them to use a shield with their spear? highly doubt they can dual wield their spear.

 

[aweigh]

yes, valks class mastery skill allows them to dual-wield spears. there's one catch, but it's not a problem: you need to find special sub-weapon type spears that only show up during the post-game. so yes, a valkyrie can use a gungnir 2h spear in her main-hand, and use a sub-Spear that deals almost the same damage in her other hand.

nobody else can equip the sub-Spears, only valks. before you find them in enemy drops yes valks can use shields or any other 1-handed weapon in their other arm and use their 2h spear with 1 hand.

the reason valks are so insane in most dungeon crawlers, specifically wizardry-clones, is because they deal same damage from back row as in the front AND learn support/healing/buffing spells for free AND they have a top 3 martial prowess in terms of attacks per swing, hit point gain, attribute growth, stuff like that. they usually come behind only fighters and lords and are always stronger than sammies. so basically they're a top-notch martial unit that can deal some of the best damage in the game from the back row and also from the front while enjoying high HP and cleric spell casting and good to-hit bonuses.

thankfully Samurai can use bows and that's a real game changers for them; lords/valks can't use the good bows (or almost any of the bows). the top 5 weapons for ibag's tower for elminage gothic include 2 bows and both can be used by samurai.

 

[Dorarnae]

yeah they can use some bow, but I'll stick with their katana hehe.

 

[aweigh]

flame heresy bow that drops on ibag's tower does 15-95 damage and deals 6 hits and has perfect accuracy; AND it is enchantable.

shuffle that sammie with his bow to the back row and have a front-line of 3 dual-wielders, then a valk dual-wielding spears in the back row and a samurai firing off with the flame heresy bow and a useless bishop to ID shit. :D

 

[aweigh]

btw, Dorarnae i wanted to ask if you have handy any wiki sites for wizardry xth: frontier academy and unlimited students. i downloaded both of the game ISO's for ps2 and already started doing prelimenary translation of battle menus, items, stuff like that. having the wiki's helps because then i can just for example copy/paste the japanese name of an item or a spell or, MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, an NPC; and then use control + F inside the hex-editor and paste the japanese text and voila goodbye 30-40 minutes of me straining my eyes digging through the hex data for a particular item. :D

all i've found so far are wiki JP sites for generation xth / abyss / babel but zero on the wiz XTH games. (which btw, i've been playing the first dungeon of wiz xth 2: unlimited students and the game is absolutely 1000x better than the generation xth games, or at least code hazard at any rate since i havne't played the others). needless to say it's like, 10000000000000000x better than the class of heroes games, obviously.

 

[aweigh]

nvmd found it!

http://spoiler.sakura.ne.jp/rr/xth/

 

[Dorarnae]

yeah. well the very first class of heroes is almost the same as Wiz xth 2, but I still prefer Wiz xth2. Generation xth code hazard is so short that I think it would be better to take all 3 game together. the remake of the third game(babel) was quite nice.

 

[Zurat-Yarkuch]

Hi there.

So I bought Elminage Gothic a back when it came out on GOG a few years back, but got stuck on the second level of the first dungeon and got distracted by other things.

However, I got interested again in these japanese Wizardry type of games with the talk here about the release of Stranger of Sword City.

So I was hoping I could ask you guys some questions since you guys seem to be super knowledgeable about the game.

When starting out should I use the default party the game gives me or make my own characters?

Should I start all my characters off as young as possible so they don't die from old age super fast?

Do I need to buy graph paper to map out the dungeons so I don't have to keep buying maps?

Thank you for your time and help.

 

[aweigh]

GhopTheConqueror

make your own characters but be sure to rob-and-murder the original characters that ship with the game because they're carrying armors/whips/etc that will help you out in the 1st and 2nd dungeons and...well, you get 'em free immediatley just for murdering 'em

i recommend you think first about the race as age is a huge deal in this game.

honestly i recommend that for a beginner party you pick the races that have +100 life spans like elves, dwarves, and i don't remember who else. it may sound super power-gamey but a group of 4 dwarves (your martial units, basically) and 2 elves (caster-types initially) is basically the "safest" beginner selection of races.

Both races feature +100 year life-spans which means you will NEVER... and i mean NEVER, EVER run into the problems that old age brings (lowered stats, etc); plus both races are very good stat-wise.

I would recommend for you:

1x dwarf samurai: (keep rolling; trust me unlike lord/valkyrie/ninja getting a samurai right off the bat will only take 15 mins or less of rolling-- no problem with keeping this guy "innocent" the entire game. this guy is gonna be your quarterback basically for the first half of the game).

(Samurais have access to Wizard spells...)

2x dwarf priests: (the plan is to then change 1 of them into a samurai, and the other one into an alchemist-- when the 1st dwarf priest reaches level 14 and learns 7th spell-level Priest spells change him into the samurai so you have a second samurai but this one will have access to Priest spells on top of the new Wizard spells he will start learning when you change him to Sammy).

(When the 2nd dwarf priest also reaches level 14 i would suggest changing him to a Lord or a Valkyrie... now, even though the 2nd dwarf priest will not gain a new spell school as both Lord/Valk use Priest spells the character itself will be infinitely better as there is literally _no reason_ to keep a "pure priest" around as both the L/V will also have access to 7th magic-level Priest spells AND also have access to awesome martial weaponry and awesome martial prowess).

(Keep in mind the Lord requires a GOOD-alignment MALE dwarf, and the valkyrie requires a NEUTRAL-alignment FEMALE dwarf, so plan accordingly!).

1x thief elf: (mid-way through the game grind some mobs inside Royal Tomb for the hermit's knife which changes him into a ninja; and or do it naturally whichever comes first. only reason to go elf instead of dwarf is for the higher luck)

1x elf alchemist: (after level 14, i.e. he learned 7th magic-level alchemy spells, change him to a bishop for end-game caster unit with 3 schools)

1x elf wizard: (after level 14, i.e. he learned "DIOMANTE" the teleport spell, change him to an alchemist for an end-game Alchemist with access to damage/debuff Wizard spells)

END RESULT:

Front-Row:
Pure Samurai dwarf dual-wielding katanas
priest-then-samurai dwarf dual-wielding katanas
elf thief-then-ninja... while a Thief I recommend using a shield and melee-weapon, or glass-cannon dual-wielding build; when changed to Ninja go crazy ninjas are OP, but regardless of front or back row I would recommend having your Ninja be using Behead-enchanted Shuriken-type weapons so he can decimate the enemy back rows.

Back-Row:
dwarf first-priest-now-a-Samurai using a Bow or a "Kunai"-type weapon (you get SICK bows later)
elf alchemist-then-Bishop... both alchies and bishies have terrible, terrible gear choices... this guy is there for casting shit. and identification ofc.
dwarf priest, neutral-femal OR good-male... first-priest-then-Lord/Valk using either Lord weapons (they get so many... don't worry he'll have good shit either dual-wielding, 2-handing or sword-and-boarding) and if you go Valk then obviously spears. Spears are the most represented weapon throughout the entire game, and valks's Class Mastery skill will allow them to motherfucking dual-wield Spears if you score 1-handed "sub-weapon" type spears much later on in the game.

If you've been reading carefully you will notice this party has 1 samura who has wizard casting, 1 samurai who has wizard/priest casting, 1 ninja who is there to behead motherfuckers, 1 lord/valkyrie with Priest casting, 1 bishop who also has alchemy casting and 1 alchemist who has Wizard casting.

This is the key to not having trouble later on: being able to have as many spell options as possible available to you RIGHT FROM THE VERY 1st TURN.

With this party you can you cast 2 Wizard enemy DEBUFFS + 2 Alchemist party BUFFS + 2 characters to spare with options RIGHT IN THE VERY 1st ROUND.

 

[aweigh]

once you've gotten the hang of the game, fuck dwarfs and elves and make 6 werebeasts for your party.

best race in the game, perfect stat distribution but drawback of very short lifespan (shorter than humans) and cannot equip silver weapons. Trust me, you do not want the ticking time clock of ageing for a 1st playthrough though which is why i recommend 4 dwarves + 2 elves.

 

[Courtier]

When starting out should I use the default party the game gives me or make my own characters?

Default characters start at higher level, but you can easily catch up with your own characters. One of the draws of this type of game is creating your own party so it's entirely up to you. I used a mix of races and some monster characters.

Should I start all my characters off as young as possible so they don't die from old age super fast?

I usually start my characters in their teens or early twenties with an occasional grandpa thrown in, over the course of a playthrough (will take a while) they will age a number of years, let's say a decade or two, regardless of aging from resurrection. Most of that time is spent in the postgame though. Starting as very young is not recommended because of negative stat growth (do note that in this game you'll always end up maxing stats sooner or later). You'll probably end up saving and reloading a lot to prevent most deaths. Later you can reverse aging with traps.

Do I need to buy graph paper to map out the dungeons so I don't have to keep buying maps?

Graph paper is not necessary, filling inventory with maps + casting map spell should do just fine. Some maps are tricky and you might want to take a peek at wiki maps with those.

 

[BlackGoat]

For those who don't have it, 3 bucks on Steam summer sale right now, fyi

 

[Zurat-Yarkuch]

(When the 2nd dwarf priest also reaches level 14 i would suggest changing him to a Lord or a Valkyrie... now, even though the 2nd dwarf priest will not gain a new spell school as both Lord/Valk use Priest spells the character itself will be infinitely better as there is literally _no reason_ to keep a "pure priest" around as both the L/V will also have access to 7th magic-level Priest spells AND also have access to awesome martial weaponry and awesome martial prowess).

Okay, so I just rolled my Dwarf Samurai (didn't know bonus points could go to 29). So I wanted to roll a female dwarf cleric and change her into a Valkyrie later on. However, according to character creation a cleric can only be good alignment and a Valkyrie is neutral alignment. That means I can't change into a Valkyrie later on with a cleric.

I want to have a dwarf female Valkyrie so is there any other class I can get first before going the Valkyrie root?

 

[Dorarnae]

Dragonewt in elminage are quite good. I suggest having one fighter or priest. their breath sucks the first few level but bit later it'll save you so much time and make things easier.

a party I often play is something like
front:fighter,brawler(gladiator in english I think?),priest
back:thief,wizard,alchemist

I personally prefer human for caster than elf because they have better hp ... If age becomes a problem, you can always change them to devilish later in the game.

I highly recommend having a wizard right in the beginning, you want the teleport spell as fast as possible in this game. this will make exploration a whole lot easier.

 

[aweigh]

WHAT dorarnae says about leveling a Wizard to lvl 13/14 (depends on your INT + random chance whether you learn DIOMANTE in lvl 13 or in lvl 14...) is 100% true

once you get teleport spell it's like never having to take the bus again

it is extremely useful for abusing the diomante spell in order to re-spawn "Ore Deposits" inside dungeons so you can use your pickaxe to start collecting enchantment-materials. 15-20 mins of "diomante-mining" the Ice Dungeon in early game will get you all of the enchantment Ore you'll need for the mid-game.

there are better ore spots later but the ice dungeon is the first one that is really easy to abuse, with teleport spell.

it also "respawns" fixed enemy encounters as well, so you can use it to respawn enemies on the map if you want to keep fighting them without leaving the actual dungeon yourself.

 

[aweigh]

GhopTheConqueror

there is some footwear called "Ruby Shoes", or "Ruby Slippers", one of the two names; these shoes when equipped on any FEMALE character, of ANY alignment, will immediately kill the character and then when you Revive the character she will now be a Priest.

So yeah, you can absolutely turn a neutral female dwarf into a Priest with those shoes... they drop relatively early I remember I was using them way before mid-game.

But anyways sorry about the female dwarf cleric -> valkyrie recommendation... i completely forgot about the Priest alignment restrictions! Doesn't matter really, what i would really suggest is just to:

instead of rolling a 2nd "starter" Priest just re-roll till you get a female neutral dwarf Valkyrie. same spell school. the only reason really I was recommending that combo off the top of my head is:

a) it's tedious spending time re-rolling for points
b) "pure" casters learn their spells TWICE AS FAST as "hybrid" classes (lord/valk/samurai); and early on i really cannot overstate how life-saving having a backup 2nd priest around can be.

Alternatively take DORARNAE's recommendation and go ahead and roll a Dragon-newt neutral female Fighter and later on when her Attribute Stats are enough (probably this will happen around levels 7-12) go ahead and change her into a Valkyrie. The Dragon-newt race has the highest maximum attribute caps for both STR and VITALITY, and their unique fire breath ability will be HUGELY helpful to you pretty much all the way to the end of the game (except in post-game).

later on in a dungeon there is a secret where you can change your Dragon-newt's breath element from Fire to "Darkness", if you wish. also the Dragon-newt fire breath is boosted by Flame Charms, btw.

 

[Celerity]

Funny how my parties look nothing like aweigh s.

I have:

Innocent Dwarf Lord, because I'm crazy. Actually wasn't that bad except I skipped the 30+ required 10 times...
Dwarf Brawler, fucks shit early game, will class change later.
Innocent Human Valk, I really don't see aging as a serious concern especially since "Ghost Swarm" doesn't age like I thought, it just removes all your life but 9.
Werebeast Hunter, actually really good especially combined with...
Dragonnewt Alchemist, crowd control is actually really fucking good in this game, you can kill shit 4x your level by paralyzing it with a 1st level spell then brute forcing its regen. Also prevents nasty spell spam that 1-2 hit kills 1 or more characters or just inflicts instant death, same for breath spam. Breath weapon is also better than Mage spells early on and enemies resist/barrier and shit later. Also has some fun buffs.
Werebeast Bishop, because I can stay in the dungeon for hours instead of 5 minutes. Might replace with an identical Mage > Bishop for Diomente, level 13 doesn't take long at 500k a fight.

The non innocent characters will eventually get Mage/Cleric/Alchemist spells for utility of course.

 

[Dorarnae]

I should try the hunter in gothic someday, in particular because there isn't much to steal with the thief (psp/pc version).
but other game in the serie, the thief/gladiator combo is just too crazy. well even without the gladiator, I just love stealing shit.

I used to like the bishop first few time I played, for the extra money you get to buy back corpse ect, but now I find them so sloooowwww :S

 

[aweigh]

hunter class is probably the single most powerful/useful character class in Gothic once you're inside Ibag's Tower.

the reason for this is because of two reasons:

1) the top 5% of end-game weapons are actually bows, and guess what, half of them are in the post-game dungeons / ibag's tower.
2) the hunter is the only character class that can always guarantee a preemptive strike on the enemies you fight inside ibag's tower / post-game.

why is this important?

a lot of the enemies in ibag's tower will generally simply fuck your entire party up right from the very first round. enemies like Polyete will activate their lightning-strike and utilize multiple actions-per-turn as they pin-cushion half of your party with arrows-of-beheading BEFORE YOUR PARTY CAN EVEN TAKE THEIR 1st ROUND ACTIONS.

now, although in-game player-controllable Hunter characters cannot utilize multiple-actions-per-turn like Polyete does they can absolutely wreak epic fucking pain on the enemies by activating Lightning-strike and preemptively "sniping" lethally dangerous enemies like the demons with -70 AC, or the giant skeleton mantis enemies with scythe-arms that can Behead multiple party members on their turn; or the very same Polyete I just mentioned above.

thankfully the player's Hunter's lightning-strike always goes before an enemy hunter's lightning strike.

Slap a flame heresy bow or that bow that has like 100-200 dmg, holy, whose name I forget; give that shit to your post-game Hunter and whenever you run into an ibag's tower encounter where you immediately recognize a "party-wiper" enemy use lightning-strike and snipe the motherfucker before the enemies ever even take their 1st action.

this is not possible to replicate without a hunter. there is no other way, period, where you can preeemptively snipe enemies like that without using a Hunter's Lightning-strike. See, normally, most players don't consider it such a big deal because throughout 80% of the game there simply won't be that many enemy encounters where you 100% realize that if you don't kill THAT SPECIFIC ENEMY before he takes his 1st action then that means you WILL 100% guaranteed lose 1 or 2 party members.

suddenly a character class who can elminate such an enemy threat before the action even starts... suddenly the Hunter takes on a completely different shine. Slap charms/amulets/etc on him to guarantee that you inflict a status on the enemies so you can then get a 2nd, or even 3rd and 4th free attack on the ibag's tower enemies as the 1st turn ends.

ibag's tower encounters are so brilliant, and so difficult, that the game completely changes in how a player approaches it.

 

[Dorateen]

Great post, aweigh with respect to the viability of a Hunter and the lethality of Ibag's Tower. That said, I only used a Hunter in one of the back up parties I was running for side missions, ore-fetching and never took into the Post Game. I was going to make the main party's elf into a Hunter, but instead opted to go with Bard. His tarot cards proved to be a difference maker against those doppleganger encounters and the final two epic showdowns.

 

[aweigh]

tarot cards are very powerful, especially in the early game. i use a bard's tarot to draw the Love card (hopefully) and auto-Charm boss FOEs in the first few dungeons.

they give crap XP, and the only real reason to fight them is for your Thief to steal their phat lewt, but it feels cool owning them at level 5-8 with my bard and his Love card, heh.

the 1st dungeon FOE when charmed will always almost immediately decapitate himself haha

final dungeon and onwards tho you'll run into enemies who use Tarot against you. it's fucking bullshit!!!!11

 

[Courtier]

I think powering up your summoner is far more important, because with a sufficiently high level you can bag yourself one of those very Archer Polete or Stargazer enemies that attack many times per round and utilize lightning strike. Some of the most deadly enemies like coming in large groups (archer, phoenix, demons...), and one hunter won't be able to stop all of them. Master skill will pump the summon's stats to boot, giving you a tank that has many more hitpoints than your guys will ever have, that can use monster skills and samurai/ninja parrying or evasion. One summon can fill the same role multiple party members would. Alchemy spell decoy can divert all enemy attacks to them, saving you from getting pummeled.

EDIT: For reference - all you need to do to get an extremely powerful early summon, is petrify a floor master and take a brawler w/o claw weapon with you to slap them around without killing them. Keep trying to contract, you'll have a decent chance after every clean hit (end of 4 hit combo, gives special message & lowers resistances by flat 20% - which is required because most enemies have >90% summon resistance)