Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Haplo]

PROGRESS REPORT:

I cleared the tutorial dungeon. I am switching between the two suggested parties:

Fighter
Brawler <-> Bishop
Priest
Alchemist
Mage
Thief

Adding the Brawler made me clear fights MUCH quicker but it feels like I really want a Bishop later on. I wish the party size were 8 people. There's just not enough slots.

Good job.
Sure, having a Bishop is damn convenient. That said, what's stopping you from multiclassing your Priest and/or Mage and/or Alchemist after level 13 (14-15 in case of Mage) into one?
The other caster could become an Alchemist with extended spell repertoire. The 3rd... depends what you like. Maybe a Samurai, maybe a Valkyrie, maybe a Summoner? Also the fighter could become a Valkyrie (if female neutral). Or maybe a Lord, although personally I'm not a fan of this class.

I'm thinking of restarting to try the more weird classes. The parties you guys suggested are really good and the game has been relatively easy so far (until I accidentally ran into the Floor Master) but I am curious how the weird classes play. I think I'll make a secondary party and try them out, something like...

Valk
Brawler
Ninja (the child because neutral)
Shaman
Bard
Summoner

Why Child Ninja? If you're running with a Summoner, get a RedCap. Or make due with a Thief, Bard and/or Hunter and wait till the Ulm Zakir Hall and get a Dragonfly. Their natural Behead rate stacks with Ninja Behead UP ability.
Btw. Ninja is one of the slowest levelling classes and without a natural boost to behead rate, don't expect them to behead left, right and center early on. Their main draw is ambush prevention. In early parties something like a Thief or a Hunter (especially with an Alchemist, maybe also Werebeast to apply poison debuff) may be more effective.

 

[aweigh]

The only class I would say got the short end of the stick is the Servant. Sure, his Class ability to automatically restore health or status ailments at the end of the turn order is "cool"... until you realize that if the Servant character dies then that won't happen; and they're not particularly good martial characters nor do they get access to good weapons or armor or spell-casting.

- Shamans might not get spell-casting but they get access to some of the best weapons in the entire game, coupled with a decent Class skill.

- Hunters earn their keep in the end-game and in the post-game thanks to their Class ability that allows them to attack an enemy before the turn order begins. This can prove extremely helpful for "sniping" dangerous enemies before they begin their shenanigans on your party.

- Bards have only one redeeming quality but it is a game-changing one and it is their Class skill of drawing Tarot cards. Wanna defeat that tutorial dungeon's Floor Master with a Level 1 party? Have a Bard permanently Charm him by drawing a Lovers card. Boom.

- Summoners are completely useless except for doing one thing: capturing monsters and then making them into extremely over-powered party-members. You have to put in serious work in order to poke-capture good ones, but your efforts will be rewarded.

Fighters, Brawlers, Ninja, Samurai, Lords, Valkyries, Mages, Clerics, Thiefs and Alchemists are the best classes because they each get access to proper gear respective to their Class and they each bring something important to the table.

(Example: a pure Cleric has higher success rates when casting resurrection spells, thus making them better at this than a Bishop or a hybrid charater.)

The interplay between Classes and Races is also much deeper than in Wizardry and it takes a while for one to fully realize how subtly balanced Starfish designed everything.

NOTE: Oh, yeah, Bishops... they identify stuff.

 

[Courtier]

Elminage Original (psp) postgame bit (after clearing main game and defeating all demon lords in the Old World, didn't even know there was more content at this point)

Bring it on lad my dudes spent 10,000 hours in the gym killing vampire lords

Oh............................................

L-let's try another one:

Spoiler

ha ha ok your turn is over now, time for our counteratta--

Next:

Spoiler

This guy divides himself

Casts WISH, and....

HA HA

There's a couple others, the six gods, and according to dorar beating the main game without collecting the rings in NG+ allows you to beat the real final boss

 

[aweigh]

that is insane. supposedly each god you beat grants you a supah-powah, which helps beat the remaining gods. Like mega man.

are you on the "first lap" of the game? i never understood exactly how the 1/2/3/etc "laps" thing works in E: Original.

 

[Courtier]

On this psn version downloaded to Vita I am on lap 1, so the first new game. Laps are iterations of new game+, each one increases the rare item find. I'm still not sure what else it does

 

[Jasede]

I unlocked the next couple dungeons and found the fairy food!
I think I overdid the grinding with the hole, though. I just really wanted to get the Bishop to 10 so I could take the quest, that's all.

The game is kind of 'open' now: do I want to explore the tree? That grotto? Go to the mine? It's kind of up to me right now.

Also feel free to make fun of me but grinding that dumb hole was some of the most fun I had with a game in like 2 years; there's something nice and relaxing about some mindless grinding while listening to a podcast. Thanks, Murphy's Ghost.


If you're really bored I'd love to hear your thoughts on each of the races. I mean, I read the manual and I can figure out the obvious stuff but I am not sure about late-game perspectives. Like, I don't know why I'd want someone to be a Werebeast vs a Dwarf, for example. Right now I assigned the races kind of randomly, except: Alchemist is Human (level faster, I hope?) and Brawler is a Fairy (seems to be great!) -- Cleric is a dwarf, mage is a werething (great HP!), Fighter is a dragonewt and the thief is a hobbit, of course. The Bishop is an elf but he doesn't get much screentime.

 

[Haplo]

A fairy Brawler... after reading the gog forums and dgtree's advice I've made the same mistake.
Sure the -5 AC is nice. But eventually you find some weak armor the Brawler can wear... which is better then -5 AC.
Fairies get almost no equipment. There is a fairy rod in Hastrana.. but Hastrana is almost halfway trough the base game. And it's not that great anyway.

Plus 30 year maximum age is really bad.. especially coupled with low Vitality.

The other races sound fine.
Werebeast vs Dwarf? Werebeast has far higher agility and intelligence - gets his turn faster in combat and makes better mages. Dwarf has a slight edge in Piety and Vitality. Also werebeast can poison with its attacks and dwarf has longer life expectancy.

 

[Dorarnae]

On this psn version downloaded to Vita I am on lap 1, so the first new game. Laps are iterations of new game+, each one increases the rare item find. I'm still not sure what else it does

in Original and 2 it only increase the drop rate. In 3 it increase the drop rate and monster lvl(can lower monster level at church).
also the true final boss you get to him by getting all ring and doing dragon fang dungeon but without gaining any fame.

 

[Courtier]

I knew I got something wrong. Say, is there anything more to the collapsed tunnel in the first dungeon and the big doors at the bottom of Nivenah Temple? Also are there any rewards like the shop unlocks for filling out item book 2?

 

[Dorarnae]

I knew I got something wrong. Say, is there anything more to the collapsed tunnel in the first dungeon and the big doors at the bottom of Nivenah Temple? Also are there any rewards like the shop unlocks for filling out item book 2?

the first dungeon, if I remember its pretty much for the quest at the temple where you capture a mob with a summoner on the third floor.

and nivenah temple is the underwater map right? I don't think there's anything at the bottom with those door. would of been cool if it unlocked a new map or something.
and I don't think they give anything for filling book 2, anyway good luck with that because it probably mean stealing shit from those lvl 1300 ish god. (not that it's impossible considering I often have a lvl 2500 ish samurai hihi)

 

[aweigh]

Jasede

will post more later but:

- werebeast's racial max for agility is higher than a dwarves is the biggest difference between them and dwarves, and it is huge. werebeast's also come w/ built-in +20% chance to poison an enemy when they attack (dovetails w/ Hunter class).

- just like Wizardry, and perhaps even more so, every single 1 point of difference in the Attributes makes a huge difference. A race w/ a racial max of 22 str will deal exponentially more damage (not linearly) than a race with a racial max of 20 str, as an example.

 

[Jasede]

Why wouldn't I just make everyone a Werebeast or Dragonewt? They seem optimal.

Can I save in dungeons? So far I have been playing wizardry-style, saving only between expeditions. I heard you age if you reload in a dungeon.

 

[an Administrator]

Yup, you can. Press Esc and then Pause Adventure.

 

[Dorarnae]

Why wouldn't I just make everyone a Werebeast or Dragonewt? They seem optimal.

Can I save in dungeons? So far I have been playing wizardry-style, saving only between expeditions. I heard you age if you reload in a dungeon.

because some race like dragonewt,devilish....takes longer to lvl up.
which is why I like my dragonewt with a class like fighter or cleric at first, those class lvl up faster than advanced class, so they can get a good amount of hp quickly so their breath is useful.

werebeast makes good hunter, mostly because hunter attack again at end of turn if ennemy have a bad status, so having a 20% poison and some acces with other stat increase your chance...
devilish is for brawler because they use monster weapon and most of them are cursed, you can ''uncurse'' them with alchemy but it takes 10AP.

I actually don't know if the clock does continue if you reload in a dungeon or if it's just the message showing up, but it is a bug, the original game didn't have that. I reported that in the beta but it wasn't fixed.
if it does make you age faster, it kinda make the little trick of reloading your party for reseting fixed encounter less appealing.

 

[Haplo]

You don't actually need to pause to save.
And yes, everytime you load a save, you loose 10 days or so.
No big deal in the main game I'd say, characters age way more upon death.

Elf is arguably a better dedicated caster then a Werebeast. Also has no aging problems AND has 25% (I think) basic resistances to magic schools.
Human gets the most experience I think. Dragonnewt is pretty HOT, but poor caster stats + low agility - often late to the party.
Hotlet rules in Luck & Agility departments, making formidable Thiefs and Ninjas.
Dwarves with good Piety, Strenght and great Vitality are good candidates for Valkyries and Lords.

 

[Jasede]

All right, help me critique my party/parties. Since there are so many classes it's really hard deciding which 6 to use. I keep shuffling them around depending on what I need. Here's what I have right now:

Main Party:
1) Dragonewt Fighter -- great damage with Spear and Flamberge, slow, extreme Strength
2) Dwarf Cleric -- terrible damage, but tanky, to be made into Samurai
3) Hobbit Thief -- kind of meh but I need one?
4) Human Alchemist -- this chick rules
5) Werebeast Mage -- great HP, great nukes
6) Elven Bishop -- just to identify

Because that party didn't do a lot of damage I eventually added:
7) Fairy Brawler -- amazing damage, rarely gets hit -- not meant as permanent member, just to help with damage early on! He replaces the Bishop

Secondary Characters:
8) Human Shaman -- I have no idea what good she is, she's benched for now
9) Human Lord -- this guy rules, I could grind the 'hole' with him when he was a really low level
10) Human Valkyrie -- this chick also rules, like a female Lord
11) Devilish Ninja -- the child from the quest, I can't be bothered to artificially age him for better roles. He's doing great with his behead chance, but his AC is low: even at level 6 or 7 it's still only 8, while naked.

I like almost all of these characters so I am having trouble creating a party of "only" 6 that covers all I need. After playing with these characters for a bit I think my final party will be:

Human Lord
Dwarf Cleric -> Samurai
Devilish Ninja (later to be replaced with Redcap Ninja once mage is Summoner)
Human Valkyrie
Human Alchemist
Werebeast Mage->(Cleric->?)Bishop

If the Devilish Ninja just doesn't cut it for traps he will be replaced by the Hobbit thief.
This should cover everything, and 4 characters have healing skills.

Alternatively, I could turn the Dragonewt Fighter into a Lord - he is just 1 point of Vitality shy.

Some more thoughts: maybe having both a Lord and a Valkyrie is overkill. The Valkyrie could be replaced by a Shaman? The Bard doesn't look interesting to me. Could also replace her with a Werebeast Hunter to try out hunters?

 

[Haplo]

Why is your Ninja naked? He can wear plenty of equipment. Don't worry about the "AC ON" equipment for now. Worry about it in the end/post game, when his AC bonus actually starts to matter.

 

[Courtier]

You're pretty much set my dude, just keep going. You will soon regret spending so much time at the hole when you find lesser demons in the underground church

 

[Haplo]

Both Lord and Valk may be overkill... but not a real problem. Valk will be powerful trough the game, Lord is more of a late bloomer class. Get a couple hundred levels and his bonus will be great. Personally I'd sooner replace the Lord then Valk, but up to you.
IMO multiclassing a matured character (like a Fighter) to a Lord is one of the best uses of the Medal of Power you get at the end of the main game.

Shaman... I don't know much about. Prolly decent offensive potential, one of the weaker classes defensively.
But best bows and charms come in the post-game. Early game bows are kinda meh.

Hunter should be good... but again, best bows come late.

Anyway, don't think too much about all this. Just keep on pushing. Like Courtier advised, grinding the Hole is kinda wasteful when there's the church not too far away.
And there getting characters combat ready at ~13 level won't take long.

 

[Haplo]

And one more thing regarding Hunters. For some reason they inherit full Alchemy spell progression (9 slots per spell level). So it's good to multiclass a matured Alchemist into one.

 

[Jasede]

Now regardless of inexperience, what do you veterans consider the 'perfect' parties? It seems like there's two schools of thought in this thread: aweigh's solid multi-classes with lots of cleric spells and then Haplo with his BTFO super summon spirit pact team of mobsters.

Also, when would I want to use a ? gender character?

 

[an Administrator]

when would I want to use a ? gender character

There some gender-specific weapons around i guess...

 

[OndrejSc]

"Have you seen Bane of the Cosmic Forge and Crusaders of the Dark Savant and Elminage Gothic, the third, the other? These are the high-flying cranes and their intercession is to be hoped for." The Dungeon Crawler Verses

 

[Haplo]

Well, the early post-game Lord super-weapon is "?" gender locked.


Best Fighter weapon is Male only.

 

[Dorarnae]

Now regardless of inexperience, what do you veterans consider the 'perfect' parties? It seems like there's two schools of thought in this thread: aweigh's solid multi-classes with lots of cleric spells and then Haplo with his BTFO super summon spirit pact team of mobsters.

Also, when would I want to use a ? gender character?

I often go with something like:
fighter,dragonewt cleric,brawler,thief,mage,alchemist.
fighter can be dragonewt too, but human is fine too, considering later valkyrie takes longer to lvl and breath is less useful post game...

and eventually change the fighter for valkyrie and mage for summoner.

with other elminage I run a similar party but go with samurai instead of valkyrie.

there's probably better team, brawler in gothic aren't that bad but they 're not op like other elminage where you can steal a bunch of items with the thief. you do need them for getting good summon though.
you could always change thief for hunter/ninja. thief is pretty much just for high chance to disarm til you get the alchemy spell to do that. and the spell is 100% succes rate, unlike what aweigh says :D
it's only on empire 2 on pc where it can fail(maybe the first one on pc too), other starfish game it works 100%