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Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)
- Thread starter deuxhero
- Start date
Darth Gloria is actually not new, "she" an updated (waaay updated) variation of the giant "fowls" that first appeared in wiz scenario 3. Skillving's not inspired by anything specific.
fun fact: the vast majority of the enemy art design in elminage games is a progression from the enemy art design in starfish's previous games wizardry empire 1/2/3.
wiz empire 1/2/3 feature western-style artwork as well for everything and the enemies are, obviously, updated versions of previous Wizardry 1-5/6 enemies, with obviously some new additions by starfish.
stuff like for example a bone skeleton holding a sword/dagger? you know what i mean right ? (from elminage gothic, appears in tsun-kurn cavern).
well that is not just a random generic skeletin; it's a 2014 version of the skeleton enemies from wizardry 1-5.
obviously it's notl like wizardry invented... skeletons; i just point out the fact that (intentionally) almost everything about elminage series and wiz empire series is, rightfully, "very, very inspired" by wizardry in everything including enemy art.
fuck, even dragon quest features shit load of direct Wizardry inspiration in its enemy art as well; the dragon quest 1 boss Green Dragon is an anime-iefied version of the normal dragons that you fight in early Wizardry scenarios. DQ also has the same skeleton-holding-a-dirk enemy as well, and not coincidentally.
later on DQ series are now 100% their own thing, but DQ 1's lead designer has always said that he made DQ specifically because he wanted to make a casual, easily-accessible version of Wizardry which was his favorite game.
Oh, another Gothic enemy art example: those arch angels we were discussing, those fuckers' sprites have been going around starfish games since 2001 when you fight them in wiz empire 1, haha. Sure they're higher-res now but, y'know.
It is true tho that Gothic features the most amount of Wizardry-inspired enemy ARTWORK out of all the elminage games. original/2/3 share almost the same enemy list, with 2 and 3 barely having more than 15-20 new enemies, if that.
however Gothic features well over 75 completely new enemies to the series and they're ALL meant to evoke the Wizardry enemy designs.
fun fact: the vast majority of the enemy art design in elminage games is a progression from the enemy art design in starfish's previous games wizardry empire 1/2/3.
wiz empire 1/2/3 feature western-style artwork as well for everything and the enemies are, obviously, updated versions of previous Wizardry 1-5/6 enemies, with obviously some new additions by starfish.
stuff like for example a bone skeleton holding a sword/dagger? you know what i mean right ? (from elminage gothic, appears in tsun-kurn cavern).
well that is not just a random generic skeletin; it's a 2014 version of the skeleton enemies from wizardry 1-5.
obviously it's notl like wizardry invented... skeletons; i just point out the fact that (intentionally) almost everything about elminage series and wiz empire series is, rightfully, "very, very inspired" by wizardry in everything including enemy art.
fuck, even dragon quest features shit load of direct Wizardry inspiration in its enemy art as well; the dragon quest 1 boss Green Dragon is an anime-iefied version of the normal dragons that you fight in early Wizardry scenarios. DQ also has the same skeleton-holding-a-dirk enemy as well, and not coincidentally.
later on DQ series are now 100% their own thing, but DQ 1's lead designer has always said that he made DQ specifically because he wanted to make a casual, easily-accessible version of Wizardry which was his favorite game.
Oh, another Gothic enemy art example: those arch angels we were discussing, those fuckers' sprites have been going around starfish games since 2001 when you fight them in wiz empire 1, haha. Sure they're higher-res now but, y'know.
It is true tho that Gothic features the most amount of Wizardry-inspired enemy ARTWORK out of all the elminage games. original/2/3 share almost the same enemy list, with 2 and 3 barely having more than 15-20 new enemies, if that.
however Gothic features well over 75 completely new enemies to the series and they're ALL meant to evoke the Wizardry enemy designs.
yet more fun facts too, Exbelion, is that the Wizardry Empire enemy art was directly inspired, and in many cases upgraded versions of the "first" graphics remake Wizardry games received which was for:
- the first Wizardry "graphics remake" that was made was for the japanese FM Towns computer, and it featured the very first ever time a Wiz game had soundtrack as well.
- After that one, they made all of the other remakes, i.e.: for PS1, for SNES, for Nintendo, for Game Boy, for WonderSwan, etc.
- ...but all of those later "remakes" decided to use the upgraded enemy art as the "jumping off point" for their enemy graphics! There's a neat image in the Boltac's Trading Post website (jap website) which shows the graphics progression of the treasure chest, and the tombstones, and you notice immediately that...
- the treasure chest and the tombstones (the ones in Wiz-Empire games and also in Elminage) are literally just up-scaled versions of the sprites from that FM Towns version of the Wizardry 1-5 remakes !
So it turns out Wiz series is so japanese, soooo japanese that even its eventual artistic evolution was completely shaped by 1 japanese artist!
- the first Wizardry "graphics remake" that was made was for the japanese FM Towns computer, and it featured the very first ever time a Wiz game had soundtrack as well.
- After that one, they made all of the other remakes, i.e.: for PS1, for SNES, for Nintendo, for Game Boy, for WonderSwan, etc.
- ...but all of those later "remakes" decided to use the upgraded enemy art as the "jumping off point" for their enemy graphics! There's a neat image in the Boltac's Trading Post website (jap website) which shows the graphics progression of the treasure chest, and the tombstones, and you notice immediately that...
- the treasure chest and the tombstones (the ones in Wiz-Empire games and also in Elminage) are literally just up-scaled versions of the sprites from that FM Towns version of the Wizardry 1-5 remakes !
So it turns out Wiz series is so japanese, soooo japanese that even its eventual artistic evolution was completely shaped by 1 japanese artist!
Exbelion
Educated
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2017
- Messages
- 50
I want to play Wizardry 3 on my PSP so badly! 
Is there a full or partial translation of the game? One wizardry game has been fully translated:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-princess-for-pc-translation-completed.96776/
Is there a full or partial translation of the game? One wizardry game has been fully translated:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-princess-for-pc-translation-completed.96776/
Trash Player
Augur
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2015
- Messages
- 495
Is Court Sanc. good enough as a substitute for anti-status enchantments from a dedicated Alch.? Just a curious question.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2016
- Messages
- 6,560
Sure! When you're level 500 or so...
Just kidding, sorry. I don't know the exact scaling. Caps at 75%, which is pretty good. But its very slooow to get there.
It won't replace an Alchemist. However there are various standard items with a resistance to 1 or even several/all status ailments (but usually not very high if it's to several/all). Maybe enough to cover the important bases combined with CS. You can also switch between them, depending on the main risks present on the current floor. Then again, you may decide you don't need the paltry 20-40%
Anyway, the more important role of the Alchemist is to lower the AC on many/most equipment pieces, I think. Mostly relevant for the post game, of course.
Another path to covering the Status Resistances is to recruit monster adventurers in your party. Some of them come with very high built-in Status Resistances (along Status Affliction chances - potentially multiple, up to 50%, Recovery Rate, HP Recovery, school defences, Elemental defences - up to 300% and elemental boosts - up to 300%). These do not stack with items, but in many cases can more then replace them (resistances of some monsters reach 100%, although often there is a gap in one or more status effects - but there items can help).
Exbelion
richard already uplaoded my WIP english patch of psp wiz-empire 3 up to website called romhacking.net
in any case, i'll just upload the .iso i have here, which i think might be a little more recent and send u link.
btw, i mentioned this (what you asked for just now) many times before. also can give you the pretty much done wiz empire 1 (one) for windows PC. absolutely everything i already got into english EXCEPT around 80% of the npc dialog, i.e. the npc's inside the dungoens who talk at you.
that one i have to send u firedrop link although richard MAY have also uploaded a patch for the iso to RH dot net as well. Probably he did.
richard already uplaoded my WIP english patch of psp wiz-empire 3 up to website called romhacking.net
in any case, i'll just upload the .iso i have here, which i think might be a little more recent and send u link.
btw, i mentioned this (what you asked for just now) many times before. also can give you the pretty much done wiz empire 1 (one) for windows PC. absolutely everything i already got into english EXCEPT around 80% of the npc dialog, i.e. the npc's inside the dungoens who talk at you.
that one i have to send u firedrop link although richard MAY have also uploaded a patch for the iso to RH dot net as well. Probably he did.
i already tired that man, and it is possible xcept they added 1 completely new race (bird-like / Vardian), and they made in-game playable from the very beginning the Ogre race,yeah, the one from elmi: Original. (in e: Original you need to finish the Last Courtyard quest involving that goblin and that Ogre, once done both races unlock).
(the goblin race was replaced with the Vardian race in 3DS remix of Gothic).
Besides that, the PC version's master item list is hard coded to 714 items. I already long ago manually went thru every item that wasn't "good" or " worth keeping in the game" and replaced those with the new ones from the 3ds version.
even doing that, you'll be left wanting, as 3ds version has 916 items in its master item list. (however around 100 or so of all of those "new items" are simply the enemy-type weapons such as beaks, talons, etc, that they simply copy/pasted from elminage: original and slapped them onto the inventories of all of the e: Gothic enemies where appropriate).
the first 5 dungeons (i.e. all the way up to the first "story dungeon" which is the underground church you enter thru after defeating the possessed priest in bottom floor of derzapola tunnels)-- these beggining-game-dungeons all feature completely remade floor layouts for their floors).
(however they all basically suck. some changes are welcome like they put secret doors in Great Tree and Guatella Grotto linking together all of the sections for quick navigation, especially because by that point no one in the party will have DIOMANTE so hoofing it still is dangerous in that period of the game).
but all of the floor layouts were changed to be simplre, easier to navigate and frankly they lack the polish of the original floor layouts.
besides all of that there are about 30 or so new enemies, of which some show up for events such as the father of an NPC devilish valkyrie who you can recruit in guatella grotto, you fight him several times; and i haven't yet reached the post-game but Dorarnae says there are surprises awaiting me especially inside soldier of giant gods, in terms of combat he says.
lastly, the cave of the ancients has a whole new mini-floor that allows you to fight every single floor master and story-boss and event npc that you want, over and over, for xp, for gold, and for stealing purposes. Yes, this includes both Incarnation, the chained giant and also the two new SUPRA-bosses who unlock after you beat Incarnation.
(they're called "Stella", a female goddess who is a mage-type, and her big brother a [insert japanese name here] who is basically Incarnation but with 2x all of the stats and 10x better items and weapons. Basically there for when your party is level 300 and you feel like either hanging yourself in your room finally, and end it all, or... waste some hours beating the ridiculous boss Starfish added for autists).
hmm, what else... oh, right, the new NPCs. REM (guatella grotto) dev-valk // hisashage (magic doll - shaman - Great Tree+Hastrana) // Anastacia (the only way to unlock Vardian race in the training hall) she is a (vardian - BARD - hastrana b2f) - and finally Ogre-race Hunter named Hu and Ogre-race Brawler Fu, and you can only pick one from the two (brawler-ogre comes after unlocking both delgus ice caves + the moss-covered, green-light Cave).
I just recruited the brawler-ogre and didn't know before hand it locked out the hunter brother, but whatever. none of them have anything to contribute in terms of story, conversation or anything: they just have very pretty drawn custom avatar images and annoyingly enough you can't change their ex-skills.
that sums it all up but there are small tweaks mostly to the 3DS-style GUI which for example highlights portraits of chars who can equip an item when the item is being traded between chars, which is handy, and also when browsing in the Shop the portraits once again highlight if the item is usable by them.
in terms of low level stuff like formulas and shit, the game is much easier. the tables for probabilities of learning spells and probabilities of losing (or gaining) an attribute point on level up (race + age formula + d100); in 3ds version both of those subjects are waaay more forgiving. spells learn almost always and attributes do drop, but the struggle is nowhere near Gothic.
enemies overall got all of their attributes (str/int/etc) reduced, i don't know how much especifically as they went thru every enemy and customized each one (while adding the new weapons to their inventories of course). less HP on a lot of them as well.
on the flip side they applied 3x and 5x multipliers to hp/stats/etc on ALL floor masters and "story-bosses". except the FMs and story-bosses to ass rape you like it's not even funny. (can't wait!).
already we have mentioned vast majority of ALL items, including the 714 original ones and all of the new ones that make it up to 916 items, eveyrthing got their values tweaked. tl;dr same mantra as the dungeon floor remaking:
- items deal in general more dmg because they're all, in general, WAY more accurate, and the new-new-new items are all extremely OP and easily acquirable.
- best change out of ALL of it, and the ONLY change i think is worth it in terms of legitimate game design is they added accuracy modifiers on almost every single piece of non-heavy armor/shoe/hat/glove/ring/belt/tiara hell even the Ankhs.
this means that now you can outfit the non-martial classes, like say a Bishop, and bling him out in all ACC plus gear and he'll finally be able to contribute in melee! obviously same applies to the martial-types themselves, which raises the question: wait, wouldn't that then mean that ACC+ gear on fighter-type classes mean they are gonna roflstomp everything? wellllllllllllllllllllllll.... yup.
oh right minor tweaks to some of the ex-skills, like for example now Swallow Killer does not consume 1 SP for using it.
like i said even THAT change is also easily done on PC version, and in this very thread around 30 pages back you will find dropbox links where i uploaded PC version files with all of the item/enemy/skill changes from 3ds version for use in PC version.
oh right, there are 2 new music tracks. the main one is a beautiful string choral piece that now plays when you enter the Town. reaeeeeeeeally adds a ton of "gothic" atmosphere to the game. A simple change that makes a huge difference. (can't say if the new tracks can be ported to pc version but i imagine it's as easy as replacing 2 default ones on the PC w/ the new ones and that's that.)
(the goblin race was replaced with the Vardian race in 3DS remix of Gothic).
Besides that, the PC version's master item list is hard coded to 714 items. I already long ago manually went thru every item that wasn't "good" or " worth keeping in the game" and replaced those with the new ones from the 3ds version.
even doing that, you'll be left wanting, as 3ds version has 916 items in its master item list. (however around 100 or so of all of those "new items" are simply the enemy-type weapons such as beaks, talons, etc, that they simply copy/pasted from elminage: original and slapped them onto the inventories of all of the e: Gothic enemies where appropriate).
the first 5 dungeons (i.e. all the way up to the first "story dungeon" which is the underground church you enter thru after defeating the possessed priest in bottom floor of derzapola tunnels)-- these beggining-game-dungeons all feature completely remade floor layouts for their floors).
(however they all basically suck. some changes are welcome like they put secret doors in Great Tree and Guatella Grotto linking together all of the sections for quick navigation, especially because by that point no one in the party will have DIOMANTE so hoofing it still is dangerous in that period of the game).
but all of the floor layouts were changed to be simplre, easier to navigate and frankly they lack the polish of the original floor layouts.
besides all of that there are about 30 or so new enemies, of which some show up for events such as the father of an NPC devilish valkyrie who you can recruit in guatella grotto, you fight him several times; and i haven't yet reached the post-game but Dorarnae says there are surprises awaiting me especially inside soldier of giant gods, in terms of combat he says.
lastly, the cave of the ancients has a whole new mini-floor that allows you to fight every single floor master and story-boss and event npc that you want, over and over, for xp, for gold, and for stealing purposes. Yes, this includes both Incarnation, the chained giant and also the two new SUPRA-bosses who unlock after you beat Incarnation.
(they're called "Stella", a female goddess who is a mage-type, and her big brother a [insert japanese name here] who is basically Incarnation but with 2x all of the stats and 10x better items and weapons. Basically there for when your party is level 300 and you feel like either hanging yourself in your room finally, and end it all, or... waste some hours beating the ridiculous boss Starfish added for autists).
hmm, what else... oh, right, the new NPCs. REM (guatella grotto) dev-valk // hisashage (magic doll - shaman - Great Tree+Hastrana) // Anastacia (the only way to unlock Vardian race in the training hall) she is a (vardian - BARD - hastrana b2f) - and finally Ogre-race Hunter named Hu and Ogre-race Brawler Fu, and you can only pick one from the two (brawler-ogre comes after unlocking both delgus ice caves + the moss-covered, green-light Cave).
I just recruited the brawler-ogre and didn't know before hand it locked out the hunter brother, but whatever. none of them have anything to contribute in terms of story, conversation or anything: they just have very pretty drawn custom avatar images and annoyingly enough you can't change their ex-skills.
that sums it all up but there are small tweaks mostly to the 3DS-style GUI which for example highlights portraits of chars who can equip an item when the item is being traded between chars, which is handy, and also when browsing in the Shop the portraits once again highlight if the item is usable by them.
in terms of low level stuff like formulas and shit, the game is much easier. the tables for probabilities of learning spells and probabilities of losing (or gaining) an attribute point on level up (race + age formula + d100); in 3ds version both of those subjects are waaay more forgiving. spells learn almost always and attributes do drop, but the struggle is nowhere near Gothic.
enemies overall got all of their attributes (str/int/etc) reduced, i don't know how much especifically as they went thru every enemy and customized each one (while adding the new weapons to their inventories of course). less HP on a lot of them as well.
on the flip side they applied 3x and 5x multipliers to hp/stats/etc on ALL floor masters and "story-bosses". except the FMs and story-bosses to ass rape you like it's not even funny. (can't wait!).
already we have mentioned vast majority of ALL items, including the 714 original ones and all of the new ones that make it up to 916 items, eveyrthing got their values tweaked. tl;dr same mantra as the dungeon floor remaking:
- items deal in general more dmg because they're all, in general, WAY more accurate, and the new-new-new items are all extremely OP and easily acquirable.
- best change out of ALL of it, and the ONLY change i think is worth it in terms of legitimate game design is they added accuracy modifiers on almost every single piece of non-heavy armor/shoe/hat/glove/ring/belt/tiara hell even the Ankhs.
this means that now you can outfit the non-martial classes, like say a Bishop, and bling him out in all ACC plus gear and he'll finally be able to contribute in melee! obviously same applies to the martial-types themselves, which raises the question: wait, wouldn't that then mean that ACC+ gear on fighter-type classes mean they are gonna roflstomp everything? wellllllllllllllllllllllll.... yup.
oh right minor tweaks to some of the ex-skills, like for example now Swallow Killer does not consume 1 SP for using it.
like i said even THAT change is also easily done on PC version, and in this very thread around 30 pages back you will find dropbox links where i uploaded PC version files with all of the item/enemy/skill changes from 3ds version for use in PC version.
oh right, there are 2 new music tracks. the main one is a beautiful string choral piece that now plays when you enter the Town. reaeeeeeeeally adds a ton of "gothic" atmosphere to the game. A simple change that makes a huge difference. (can't say if the new tracks can be ported to pc version but i imagine it's as easy as replacing 2 default ones on the PC w/ the new ones and that's that.)
Exbelion
inside spoiler tags is exactly what you're looking for. don't hesitate to let know if anything is borked or glitched, pls. (no, i don't mean pc version edits, the other stuff).
inside spoiler tags is exactly what you're looking for. don't hesitate to let know if anything is borked or glitched, pls. (no, i don't mean pc version edits, the other stuff).
my current ROM, WIP mostly all of it already in english, save for npc text; elmi: gothic 3DS remix rom: http://frd.li/56d41200c9ad5045b41af598ffc05a09
a very rough, very much WIP eng-translation of most menus, enemies, items, spells, etc of WIZ EMPIRE 3 for psp: http://frd.li/76c64b7a4127d32e
almost completed eng trans of elmi 2 psp (obv. without npc dialog): http://frd.li/d2a80521dbef628cd3b8e3664ec3fe8fs
same deal again but this time almost completed elmi 3 psp but obv. without the npc dialog: http://frd.li/2b87db6f8b4ab366f83b7c422be9307a
my own, ONCE AGAIN, literally all of it in english except for the words that come out of NPCs; wizardry epmire 1 for windows PC (be sure to run it in win 98 compatability mode if it doesn't launch; that's what i have to do on my end): http://frd.li/d4b8ba12388aec01771dfac215c9c3dc
and a bonus for you all, to apss the time... paper sorcerer for windows PC just unzip it and play no install required: http://frd.li/f9e69518cb599e6d
a very rough, very much WIP eng-translation of most menus, enemies, items, spells, etc of WIZ EMPIRE 3 for psp: http://frd.li/76c64b7a4127d32e
almost completed eng trans of elmi 2 psp (obv. without npc dialog): http://frd.li/d2a80521dbef628cd3b8e3664ec3fe8fs
same deal again but this time almost completed elmi 3 psp but obv. without the npc dialog: http://frd.li/2b87db6f8b4ab366f83b7c422be9307a
my own, ONCE AGAIN, literally all of it in english except for the words that come out of NPCs; wizardry epmire 1 for windows PC (be sure to run it in win 98 compatability mode if it doesn't launch; that's what i have to do on my end): http://frd.li/d4b8ba12388aec01771dfac215c9c3dc
and a bonus for you all, to apss the time... paper sorcerer for windows PC just unzip it and play no install required: http://frd.li/f9e69518cb599e6d
haven't had time to read thru last few pages but, as always, Elminage Gothic available for Windows PC.
currently 2.99 USD via Steam.
best blobber released since Wiz 5. Also, StarCrawlers is still keeping me entertained, just haven't had muhc time to play. I think it's a much better game than the other recently released Wiz-style blobber "Operation Babel" which I've completely dropped in favor of StarCrawlers.
currently 2.99 USD via Steam.
best blobber released since Wiz 5. Also, StarCrawlers is still keeping me entertained, just haven't had muhc time to play. I think it's a much better game than the other recently released Wiz-style blobber "Operation Babel" which I've completely dropped in favor of StarCrawlers.
Excidium II
Self-Ejected
is Elminage Gothic really that good? It looked kinda straightforward.
sure, it's straightforwardly that good. but seriously the only way for someone to see it is to play for themselves. i mean, either they'll enjoy it or they won't; i can only list my own opinions on the game and how it plays, which i've already done.
i would argue that wiz empire 2 rivals it in terms of map design, but elmi: gothic wins out in the end due to sheer amount of content, and simply put the best itemization and balance i've ever seen in a game.
from beginning of the game to the final 20th floor of Ibag's Tower you will be trying out new item combinations and new combinations of buffs/debuffs via enchanting system; and there will still be combinations of classes, races, ex_skills, and gear that you won't even know are good for what you need.
i've put 1k + hours into the game across 2 different platforms (PC ver and 3ds ver) and i'm still finding new ways to combine races/classes/ex-skills and items and shit.
one small example of the type of "freedomg" it allows: ( rarely use summoner class myself but) if you want to roll without a char w/ access to thief skills you can have your summon do it for you.
each captured enemy can also be optoinally "reborn" as a playable NPC character and they inherit certain skills from their previous "life" as an enemy/summon.
i type all that and yet, i rarely even bother to roll w/ a summoner in my party because i prefer using the ninja's duplication ex-skill to have him/her make a clone of him/herself for encounters.
i would argue that wiz empire 2 rivals it in terms of map design, but elmi: gothic wins out in the end due to sheer amount of content, and simply put the best itemization and balance i've ever seen in a game.
from beginning of the game to the final 20th floor of Ibag's Tower you will be trying out new item combinations and new combinations of buffs/debuffs via enchanting system; and there will still be combinations of classes, races, ex_skills, and gear that you won't even know are good for what you need.
i've put 1k + hours into the game across 2 different platforms (PC ver and 3ds ver) and i'm still finding new ways to combine races/classes/ex-skills and items and shit.
one small example of the type of "freedomg" it allows: ( rarely use summoner class myself but) if you want to roll without a char w/ access to thief skills you can have your summon do it for you.
each captured enemy can also be optoinally "reborn" as a playable NPC character and they inherit certain skills from their previous "life" as an enemy/summon.
i type all that and yet, i rarely even bother to roll w/ a summoner in my party because i prefer using the ninja's duplication ex-skill to have him/her make a clone of him/herself for encounters.
Bruma Hobo
Lurker
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,481
Elminage Gothic is an extremely unimaginative early Wizardry clone, if that's what you want then go for it since it does it exceedingly well, at least gameplay-wise. Aesthetically it's not up there though, I believe having too detailed graphics, too implausible scenarios and too many static NPCs ruining its dungeons' atmosphere, among other small details, does a disservice to the abstract and minimalistic Wizardry formula. But ignoring that and its shitty GUI, I think it's a solid game.
Last edited:
MadMaxHellfire
Arcane
it's not a clone, it's exactly the same game. i tried it and wizardry empire 2 one after the other and i wasn't sure i actually installed a different game.
the interface has been the real deal breaker for me, between its inherent retardness and lots of obscure commands with little, no or wrong explanation. i've seen better made with rpg maker. unbearable, unforgivable, i can't understand how you masochists can enjoy it.
yes, all RPGs are indeed quite similar. I agree wholeheartedly. Especially the ones that have game-play. They ALL feature the SAME game play.
if you guys want make a new thread bitching about Elminage or Wizardry, and leave poor ole StarCrawlers alone. I realize it's hard to distinguish between these 3 games as all 3 are, as you have pointed out accurately, the exact same, but still try and make the effort.
If you guys want to actually discuss turn-based blobbers, or real time ones too for that matter, the jRPG sub-forum has many more and much better threads than the General RPG forum.
I have like 7 threads from the past year where I wrote around 25 thousand words all saved up and ready to paste in rebuttal of whatever retarded nonsense anyone who says Wiz-clones are bad dares to write!!!11
like, i literally almost live almost entirely for the chance to pound into morons' heads how wrong they are about RPGs and how wrong they are about what constitutes RPG game play so I literally can't wait.
if you guys want make a new thread bitching about Elminage or Wizardry, and leave poor ole StarCrawlers alone. I realize it's hard to distinguish between these 3 games as all 3 are, as you have pointed out accurately, the exact same, but still try and make the effort.
If you guys want to actually discuss turn-based blobbers, or real time ones too for that matter, the jRPG sub-forum has many more and much better threads than the General RPG forum.
I have like 7 threads from the past year where I wrote around 25 thousand words all saved up and ready to paste in rebuttal of whatever retarded nonsense anyone who says Wiz-clones are bad dares to write!!!11
like, i literally almost live almost entirely for the chance to pound into morons' heads how wrong they are about RPGs and how wrong they are about what constitutes RPG game play so I literally can't wait.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2016
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Well, it's an acquired taste. The game doesn't really encourage you to enter and keep playing. The story could just as well not be there at all. The first dungeon is already quite confusing and a mess design-wise (huge cave with corridors and doors every 3 steps? come on...). It does get better though. And sometimes way more complex and way more confusing, obviously. First dungeon that really amazed me were the Hastrana air caves. Six levels, interconnected via air vents in different areas. When simple 2D navigation just doesn't cut it. You'll really be praying for that Diomente teleportation spell ASAP.
Granted, that's like half-way trough the base game.
UI... takes getting used to. Is generally easier to operate with keyboard only. First time I had trouble finding the options to continue the game with my chosen party after game load...
Very limited inventory space is a pain (Mysterious Bag Ex-Skill is a must for me). So are the one-use maps (I quickly installed a mod to make them permanent, though there is a repairable map in-game... and even a permanent one... near end-game / post-game). Trading items between party members is a pain as well.
The multi-classing is true to the old Wizardry formula, meaning pretty bare-bones (you just keep known spells from previous class with limited casts). But the classes are good and sprinkled with interesting skills and high level mastery skills. Many of those skills / high mastery skills scale with level... but not all (like Ninja/Brawler getting -1 AC every 3 levels versus Samurai dual-wielding main-hand weapons or Valkyrie main-handing typically two-handed spears). Plus there are Ex Skills chosen at creation to further customize characters.
Enemy designs are varied, interesting... and sometimes brutal. Particularly in the huge post-game section. Lots of status effect afflictions, sometimes with crazy high success rates. The really cool thing is that you can turn the strengths of your enemies into your own trough summoned monster Spirit Pact. Playing with summons takes a bit work, but is very rewarding.
If you persist and are not turned off by the graphics, UI, lack of story, rough start (and frankly, bad starter dungeon), then you're in for a ride. The game has some great level design (mixed with bad), great enemy design and is good at challenging the player. Also sometimes exciting loot (among tons of meh equipment). At the same time it's not overly punishing due to easy access to save/reload and teleportation spell (well, after your Mage finally gets it - time to celebrate). And then you finish the base game and advance to post-game... and the real challenge starts with the third, final 20 floor dungeon...
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uh, agreed. yes ofc it's an acquired taste, and everything else: ui, yes keyboard-only is 100% the way to go (i think mouse device is unnecessary for most RPGs), etc, etc. good post
EDIT: i do disagree with the "bare bones" thing, not only regarding your specific mention of multi-classing but in regards to anything. it is simply inarguable that anything about Elminage: Gothic is "bare bones" when talking about it's systems.
call its graphics "bare bones" if you wish, though remember that graphics are an afterthought for real RPGs/games, but nothing about any of its systems is bare bones. everything else is correct.
remember, for example, that you also keep HPs, so that adds (albeit a superficial one) extra layer. classing from a Fighter class to something else will net you mucho HPs, which
EDIT: i do disagree with the "bare bones" thing, not only regarding your specific mention of multi-classing but in regards to anything. it is simply inarguable that anything about Elminage: Gothic is "bare bones" when talking about it's systems.
call its graphics "bare bones" if you wish, though remember that graphics are an afterthought for real RPGs/games, but nothing about any of its systems is bare bones. everything else is correct.
remember, for example, that you also keep HPs, so that adds (albeit a superficial one) extra layer. classing from a Fighter class to something else will net you mucho HPs, which
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- Joined
- Sep 14, 2016
- Messages
- 6,560
Multiclassing is very bare-bones in Wiz-clones. Sure, it is still very useful to know any/additional spell schools. Particularly for the likes of Alchemist or Summoner, who have little to do otherwise. Many buff/debuff spells can be stack-cast by multiple characters to great effect.
But it is extremely limited with NO abilities/proficiencies carrying over (plus the penalizing attribute reset to base racial levels). Even moreso, if compared with the likes of Stranger of Sword City (actually the devs went overboard there, IMO, chars get too powerful trough multiclassing) or Operation Babel.
Keeping HPs in Elminage is a non-issue, as after multiclassing you get only 1 HP per level until your new class exceeds projected HP total from previous class. So those are "borrowed" HPs of sorts and not actual net gain. This is in strong contrast to the already mentioned SoSC.
Of course the class balance and loot mechanics in SoSC are significantly worse. Itemization is good though, but the loot acquisition method is gamey and grindy.
Not to mention the dungeon design, which is very uninspired and simplistic.
But it is extremely limited with NO abilities/proficiencies carrying over (plus the penalizing attribute reset to base racial levels). Even moreso, if compared with the likes of Stranger of Sword City (actually the devs went overboard there, IMO, chars get too powerful trough multiclassing) or Operation Babel.
Keeping HPs in Elminage is a non-issue, as after multiclassing you get only 1 HP per level until your new class exceeds projected HP total from previous class. So those are "borrowed" HPs of sorts and not actual net gain. This is in strong contrast to the already mentioned SoSC.
Of course the class balance and loot mechanics in SoSC are significantly worse. Itemization is good though, but the loot acquisition method is gamey and grindy.
Not to mention the dungeon design, which is very uninspired and simplistic.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Eh, the reason I couldn't get into Eliminage was the stat loss at level up and the constant trapped chests. I just don't have the patience for that crap anymore.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
That's the thing, you put a thief in your party for one reason and he still fails half the time. He has ONE JOB and he's barely 50/50 at it.
If chests were one-time location finds that would be one thing, combined with spellcasters it would be doable. But after every single battle, even trash mobs? Come on. How do slimes and worms even trap their chests anyway??
Nice tip about modding an infinite automap though, I may look for that.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2016
- Messages
- 6,560
Well yeah... chests everywhere... kinda like Wasteland 2. Only here it's a matter of convention. And it actually has a chance to contain something nice.
Regarding disarm chance, like I mentioned its a matter of Luck and level. My Ninja fails disarm very rarely nowadays. Less then 5% I would say.
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