Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[aweigh]

btw, Courtier

i've been studying these two SoSC links:

1. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gMchM1ZJyHxSyAiFnUXKU8-kBerqvSJu4d0ULQGekHY/edit#gid=0
2. http://www.spoiler.jp/srv/tsurugi/index.php?クラス/ナイト

there is absolutely a lot of depth in SoSC but unfortunately due to the game's very simple spell systems it fails to reach any sort of level even approaching Wizardry/Elminage in terms of encounter strategy.

however the game's strongest mechanic is, surprisingly enough, the incredibly enjoyable multi-classing system.

The downside, because of course there is one (heh), is that the classes themselves are incredibly mediocre in design. HOWEVER it has created in me hope of better sequels from Exp Inc / Team Muramasa now, hoping against hope they decide to EXPAND on the lacking complexity in SoSC (i.e. making a much more complex spell system for SoSC 2.0, and making classes more dynamic and stuff).

BTW, I currently decided to delete all of my party members and I created 16 new recruits with maximum age so that everyone has only 1 LIFE POINT (and awesome stats).

Having everyone perma-die as a consequence of combat and having to rely on chars currently "benched" has created a type of revolving roster of characters and the game is feeling almost like an X-COM game or some shit like haha

i recommend you try it out, the whole everyone-dies thing i'm doing :D

 

[Courtier]

pls no, i care about my characters they are all my cute children and after their adventures they live happily and make babies ever after

if i want to die ill just go play NetHack again

 

[Celerity]

The funny thing is aweigh keeps calling all this shit postgame, I've seen about half of it well before that. Granted, that one enemy doesn't Miracle fuck off you that often, but...

 

[Dorarnae]

you should try it Courtier hehe. I did it once and with a migmy party on top of that. was fun.

can you imagine doing that with elminage gothic, to delete your char when he dies lol.

 

[aweigh]

yeah, ummm no thanks! the reason i even thought of doing this is because of class-changing system in SoSC; how you retain half of the levels.

doing that shit in Elminage or Wizardry--

wait a minute... you know, it ain't THAT bad. i forgot for a moment that there is no LIFE POINT system and that you can resurrect, albeit the lower your VIT and the higher your AGE the higher the chance of him turning into a ghost.

hah, i can just see myself literaly praying at the monitor to pls pls pls don't become a ghost, heh.

ironically what we're talking about right here, right now, is the default way in which character death has always traditionally been handled in classic Wizardry 1-5...

however once crawlers started adding in hard-saving at either any moment the player wants to, or in the city only, either way: then the entire thing become optional.

before crawlers used automatic state-saving so there was no "reloading" on a char death. Wiz empire 1 and 2 utilize this, just like Wiz 1-5, but even I couldn't help myself when I once lost 3 chars to Ghostland... after that i decided to start save-scumming the game folder's save file and backing it up every time i played so i would never again lose a high-lvl char.

in any case, i'll continue talking about SoSC in its own thread. I'd like any advice/thoughts on the class-changing combos i posted in the SoSC thread, dorarnae, or if you think they're good or not. I just copy/pasted them from the jp wiki.

 

[Celerity]

Enter random Elminage Gothic encounter.
Enemy casts fuck you:
Breathing terminated.
Breathing terminated.
Resisted.
Master Cunter attacks:
Confused.
Decapitated.
Paralyzed.
Decapitated.
Master Cunter attacks:
Confused.
Decapitated.
Paralyzed.
Decapitated.

Lol, you died. Lol lol, you died...

Yeah, any dungeon crawler you can realistically make it through without anyone dying at all is casual as fuck. That includes Dark Spire by the way, outside of fuck you dragon surprises on floor 6/7 nothing can kill you if you have a clue.

 

[aweigh]

have you hit ibag's tower yet, Celerity ?

if not, then boy oh boy... it obviously never reaches "bad design" levels of difficulty since if that were the case the monocled DRPG fans of the JRPG sub-forum would not suck Starfish's dick so much.

HOWEVERRRRRR....

dude, i'm just going to go and record a fight with an enemy there for laughs. it's very amusing :D

 

[Celerity]

I imagine it ends with an enemy putting their sword in your ass and slamming you around.

What's entertaining is that there are three people who started streaming this at about the same time. One dicked around so much they spent 6 hours on the first floor. One is still pretty clueless, struggling in one of the trivial easy areas and is worried about late/postgame shit like he'll ever get there, then getting salty at me when I very nicely point that out. One actually knows what he's doing and is fairly good. Thing is as soon as he found out about Lesser Demons he quit streaming for a week. This after 78 hours of gaining only 15 levels.

I'm ahead of all of them despite starting later. Pretty funny.

PS: Lords of Xulima is 75% off you cheap ass pirate, go buy it already so I can torment you with Deepest Dark when it's done. It's on about oh... the same level as Elminage Gothic, just less random fuck you instant deaths and more what you think this is vanilla and you can ignore 95% of the game mechanics fuck you have a nice death.

 

[Dorarnae]

recent stream or...? I want to laugh :D

 

[Celerity]

Channel reiska for disorganized, Enns for epic salt, gwelengu for knows what he's doing. Twitch of course.

 

[Dorarnae]

hehe just saw Enns being scared of the church dungeon.

 

[Celerity]

As well he should be. I should watch that one, it was right after hours of salt about me because I knew what was coming and tried warning him. That area smacked me around good with all the breath/spell/instant death spam so I can easily see it hard countering him.

 

[railway]

Ibag Tower is driving me insane. In a lapse of concentration I accidentally picked a wrong answer when talking to the robed guy on floor 19, so he sent me back to the first floor.
No big deal, the level-ups I accumulated will surely come on handy for the last floor and I can take the elevator up to floor 15 again anyway - or so I thought. I fight my way back to floor 19 only to realize the trials have been reset and, foolishly, I have overwritten my savegames. Not to mention that, thinking I'm done with them anyway, I didn't mark these trials on my maps.
All three trials are on floors where the elevator stops but at the time I realized that I had already climbed the first ten floors again. Again no big deal, as I had to revisit them anyway in order to break the seals of the chained monster on floor 17...but apparently I missed one somewhere.
At least it was my own fault and not the tower trolling me again.

Does anybody here know if all of the seals are marked as exclamation points on the ingame map?
Is there a way to look at the map of a floor you're not curently in? Diomente does not work in the tower. Dioseed's description kind of suggests it's possible but none of the keys I tried switches the floor, so I guess it's just a less than perfect translation?

 

[Courtier]

YOU CAN DO IT BRO, CLEAR THE TOWER AND RISE FAR ABOVE THE PLEBEIAN MASSES
JUST USE JAP WIKI MAPS WHEN REDOING THE TRIALS IT'S HARD ENOUGH AS IS
NOT SURE IF EXCLAMATION MARKS PROPERLY SHOWN ON MAP, JUST RETRACE YOUR STEPS
THE REST OF US WILL BE WAITING TO WELCOME YOU WITH OPEN ARMS AT THE GATES TO BLOBBER VALHALLA

 

[Dorateen]

railway

If you want direct coordinates and locations, this is the information I recorded for the Seal of the gods:

Spoiler

Level 2: 8,5
Level 4: 15,10
Level 5: 17,16
Level 8: 11,19
Level 10: 4,3
Level 14: 12,2
Level 16: 12,10

 

[railway]

Courtier Dorateen
Thanks guys. I killed the first boss on the 20th floor now. Only the chain-bound monster and the second boss left.
I think I might have missed the seal on floor 8, will look there now.

When encountering doppelgangers I run away most of the time as they don't grant any XP or gold but I still got quite good at killing my own party. I'm just glad the AI doesn't use your own strategy against you.

 

[Dorarnae]

Courtier Dorateen
Thanks guys. I killed the first boss on the 20th floor now. Only the chain-bound monster and the second boss left.
I think I might have missed the seal on floor 8, will look there now.

When encountering doppelgangers I run away most of the time as they don't grant any XP or gold but I still got quite good at killing my own party. I'm just glad the AI doesn't use your own strategy against you.

yeah they're a bit annoying to fight. on the 3ds version you see them a lot less, but you see that faggot knight a bit more :S

 

[aweigh]

Dorarnae

From everything I've read wasn't the 3DS version of Elminage: Gothic toned down in enemy stats, i.e. it was made easier and the drop-rate turned up, as well as they added skills to classes to make them even more OP such as giving Lords, Samurais and Valkyrie the "Magic Power UP" mastery skills?

In the 3DS version didn't they also make Swallow-Return a passive-ability that utilizes no SP, thereby eliminating any sort of tension or strategy in the usage of it?

I'm not saying that makes it a shitty version I'm asking for confirmation on it being made much more casual. Didn't they also even change around dungeon maps and added easier exits to some of the dungeon maps?

All of those changes are fine if someone wants to play a watered down version of the game, but doesn't it mean that if they made all those changes to the 3DS version of Gothic then the fact is someone playing for the first time should play the un-edited PC or other versions BEFORE playing the easier, more casual 3DS version?

From the changes listed and the 2chan posts I've read it seems the only thing they made legitimately better for the 3DS remake of Gothic was that they "filled out" the enemy weaponry you can steal using a Thief which is something sorely lacking in the original versions of Gothic (in those versions Thief can only real steal good stuff from FOEs and from post-game dungeon enemies).

 

[Celerity]

So why the fuck does everyone sperg out about the tiger centaurs? They're really tame enemies. Now the werewolf archers can go fuck themselves and die in a fire but the tiger guys? Haven't seen anything that impressive from them. I'm more scared of the rows of bugs, they do like 100 damage and paralyze which with Pursuit Sweep = death.

PS: I was right, every single remaining puzzle in the Tomb took less time combined than that one purple fuck area just because I could actually see. Seems anti climatic, nice loot though.

 

[railway]

All right, I wasn't missing the seal on floor 8 after all. Turns out I missed a secret door leading to several rooms and corridors on floor 4.

Spoiler

Only one thing left to do now.

 

[Courtier]

From the changes listed and the 2chan posts I've read it seems the only thing they made legitimately better for the 3DS remake of Gothic was that they "filled out" the enemy weaponry you can steal using a Thief which is something sorely lacking in the original versions of Gothic (in those versions Thief can only real steal good stuff from FOEs and from post-game dungeon enemies).

Remember that the PC version is just a mediocre port of the PSP version. Remix has added races, quests and bosses (final boss is stronger than Incarnation), all item graphics re-implemented, custom options restored (BGM/portraits), thievery and enemy inventory fixed like you mentioned (btw stealing good stuff from the strongest enemies is impossible without many hundreds or even thousands of levels in either version), enemies appropriately changed - like Belial which are so ridiculous they look more like an oversight than anything else, with some enemies (Tower summoners) actually made stronger because they properly use their skills now - and minor issues fixed (for example being able to donate). I think it's not so much a watered down version as a final update, and from what I can tell from watching 3ds gameplay, certainly not enough to make the game easy or lose its rep as ''hardest Elminage''.

 

[Mortmal]

GhopTheConqueror

make your own characters but be sure to rob-and-murder the original characters that ship with the game because they're carrying armors/whips/etc that will help you out in the 1st and 2nd dungeons and...well, you get 'em free immediatley just for murdering 'em

i recommend you think first about the race as age is a huge deal in this game.

honestly i recommend that for a beginner party you pick the races that have +100 life spans like elves, dwarves, and i don't remember who else. it may sound super power-gamey but a group of 4 dwarves (your martial units, basically) and 2 elves (caster-types initially) is basically the "safest" beginner selection of races.

Both races feature +100 year life-spans which means you will NEVER... and i mean NEVER, EVER run into the problems that old age brings (lowered stats, etc); plus both races are very good stat-wise.

I would recommend for you:

1x dwarf samurai: (keep rolling; trust me unlike lord/valkyrie/ninja getting a samurai right off the bat will only take 15 mins or less of rolling-- no problem with keeping this guy "innocent" the entire game. this guy is gonna be your quarterback basically for the first half of the game).

(Samurais have access to Wizard spells...)

2x dwarf priests: (the plan is to then change 1 of them into a samurai, and the other one into an alchemist-- when the 1st dwarf priest reaches level 14 and learns 7th spell-level Priest spells change him into the samurai so you have a second samurai but this one will have access to Priest spells on top of the new Wizard spells he will start learning when you change him to Sammy).

(When the 2nd dwarf priest also reaches level 14 i would suggest changing him to a Lord or a Valkyrie... now, even though the 2nd dwarf priest will not gain a new spell school as both Lord/Valk use Priest spells the character itself will be infinitely better as there is literally _no reason_ to keep a "pure priest" around as both the L/V will also have access to 7th magic-level Priest spells AND also have access to awesome martial weaponry and awesome martial prowess).

(Keep in mind the Lord requires a GOOD-alignment MALE dwarf, and the valkyrie requires a NEUTRAL-alignment FEMALE dwarf, so plan accordingly!).

1x thief elf: (mid-way through the game grind some mobs inside Royal Tomb for the hermit's knife which changes him into a ninja; and or do it naturally whichever comes first. only reason to go elf instead of dwarf is for the higher luck)

1x elf alchemist: (after level 14, i.e. he learned 7th magic-level alchemy spells, change him to a bishop for end-game caster unit with 3 schools)

1x elf wizard: (after level 14, i.e. he learned "DIOMANTE" the teleport spell, change him to an alchemist for an end-game Alchemist with access to damage/debuff Wizard spells)

END RESULT:

Front-Row:
Pure Samurai dwarf dual-wielding katanas
priest-then-samurai dwarf dual-wielding katanas
elf thief-then-ninja... while a Thief I recommend using a shield and melee-weapon, or glass-cannon dual-wielding build; when changed to Ninja go crazy ninjas are OP, but regardless of front or back row I would recommend having your Ninja be using Behead-enchanted Shuriken-type weapons so he can decimate the enemy back rows.

Back-Row:
dwarf first-priest-now-a-Samurai using a Bow or a "Kunai"-type weapon (you get SICK bows later)
elf alchemist-then-Bishop... both alchies and bishies have terrible, terrible gear choices... this guy is there for casting shit. and identification ofc.
dwarf priest, neutral-femal OR good-male... first-priest-then-Lord/Valk using either Lord weapons (they get so many... don't worry he'll have good shit either dual-wielding, 2-handing or sword-and-boarding) and if you go Valk then obviously spears. Spears are the most represented weapon throughout the entire game, and valks's Class Mastery skill will allow them to motherfucking dual-wield Spears if you score 1-handed "sub-weapon" type spears much later on in the game.

If you've been reading carefully you will notice this party has 1 samura who has wizard casting, 1 samurai who has wizard/priest casting, 1 ninja who is there to behead motherfuckers, 1 lord/valkyrie with Priest casting, 1 bishop who also has alchemy casting and 1 alchemist who has Wizard casting.

This is the key to not having trouble later on: being able to have as many spell options as possible available to you RIGHT FROM THE VERY 1st TURN.

With this party you can you cast 2 Wizard enemy DEBUFFS + 2 Alchemist party BUFFS + 2 characters to spare with options RIGHT IN THE VERY 1st ROUND.

There's an even better race selection. Use a summoner , make a contract with monsters and use spirit pact to create adventurers out of them. Pick up creatures like the golem , and you end up with 100% ressits to petrification , beheading, and 50% to magic. Pick a mermaid and you have 16HP by turn regen character.... Lot of grinding although to get them up.But if you want to mn max ,i dont think anything beat that. oh and you cna get mage monsters with extra damage bonus like 300% fire .

 

[Celerity]

So I've found something interesting. The salty streamer, Enns apparently raged for weeks because I tried helping him a little without trolling or being mean, literally weeks. Last I seen him he was in the church, getting farmed hard by the free xp/loot enemies there and getting very salty about the puzzles. So alright then. Don't help, just watch and enjoy the salt this evening.

 

[Dorarnae]

From the changes listed and the 2chan posts I've read it seems the only thing they made legitimately better for the 3DS remake of Gothic was that they "filled out" the enemy weaponry you can steal using a Thief which is something sorely lacking in the original versions of Gothic (in those versions Thief can only real steal good stuff from FOEs and from post-game dungeon enemies).

Remember that the PC version is just a mediocre port of the PSP version. Remix has added races, quests and bosses (final boss is stronger than Incarnation), all item graphics re-implemented, custom options restored (BGM/portraits), thievery and enemy inventory fixed like you mentioned (btw stealing good stuff from the strongest enemies is impossible without many hundreds or even thousands of levels in either version), enemies appropriately changed - like Belial which are so ridiculous they look more like an oversight than anything else, with some enemies (Tower summoners) actually made stronger because they properly use their skills now - and minor issues fixed (for example being able to donate). I think it's not so much a watered down version as a final update, and from what I can tell from watching 3ds gameplay, certainly not enough to make the game easy or lose its rep as ''hardest Elminage''.

there's not custom bgm on 3ds, and the portrait is with the 3ds camera. they fixed a couple encounter/enemies. it makes the game easier overall, but the difficulty of the game feels more right, first few map were changed. Boss are harder though, on the psp version all you had to do was to land a sleep/paralyse and it was pretty much done. 3ds version fixed their resistance and recovery. You can re-fight all the FOE/boss in one dungeon.

they added some music too, a way better fighting song:


there's some other minor change...the 3ds version feels a lot more complete.

maybe a bug was added though, I don't remember if this boss could hit this hard with his breath(44:46) hehe

 

[aweigh]

well, it's at least good to know that i was right and that it is easier :D

however, both of you have managed to sway me from the opinion that the changes make Gothic a worse game; instead I now feel as both of you do and believe that when taken in their entirety all of the 3DS changes do indeed seem to make a more complete game.

now all that's left is 1 more year until Citra is fast enough to run it and I will make a thread bitching about how casual it is