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Energy weapons in Fallout 1?

Dr.Faust

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
174
Location
West-Russia
Dicksmoker said:
sgc_meltdown said:
Mastermind said:
It's easier and more satisfying to shoot your way through everything than to sneak in and detonate the bomb. Combat = RPG true bro. Anything else is larping.

Shooting my way through everything with small guns that I paid for or looted off fresh corpses starting from the first area = True bro.

Skipping areas and metagaming to get plasma rifle without fighting anything = easy mode larping.

:smug:
If you need to metagame in order to make a build work, the fault is with the designers.

Yeah man I dumped everything in intelligence and charisma, gimped my endurance, agility and perception, tagged gambling, traps and barter and I got my ass handed to me by the enemies!

Truly shit design by the developers.
 

Radisshu

Prophet
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
5,623
It isn't.

Part of the RPG thing is that you can fuck up your build and make a gimped character, it's not up to the designers to facilitate options for EVERY build. Some characters just suck (although this is a bigger issue in class-based systems, I feel).

But you've sort of got a point, Fallout doesn't do the best job of presenting good opportunities for all the skills.
 

sgc_meltdown

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
6,000
Dicksmoker said:
If you need to metagame in order to make a build work, the fault is with the designers.

Very true. That the discussion has led to this point is an unfortunate result of most character systems being balanced for shit with the exception of the obvious options.

Most likely this the combined result of assumptions being made about which skills are likely to be chosen the most and hence polished the most, pre-existing designer biases and developmental constraints. And of course, human error.

Mighty Mouse said:
STOP CRITICISING FALLOUT GO BACK AND PLAY YOUR COUNTERSTRIKE!!!

is counterstrike 2 going to come out or something, does that mod not want to have a sequel or what
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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May 29, 2010
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Jesse Heinig explained the reasoning for energy weapons being the way they are in this thread:
When Fallout was converted over to the SPECIAL system, Chris Taylor and a lot of the other team principals had to rebuild the weapon systems from scratch. Chris worked up the systems for damage thresholds, AP, and so on, and many people on the team contributed their ideas on the use of various weapons.

The initial design goal -- as I recall it; Chris T. might have something different to say about it -- was that each weapon skill group had its own rewards. If you tagged Small Guns, you had an edge right out the Vault at the outset, because you could certainly kill those Giant Rats and Mole Rats much more quickly. If you tagged Big Guns or Energy Weapons, you were taking the trade-off of a slow start in exchange for a long-term payoff. Remember, this was '96-'97, so there was still some debate about whether all builds should be equally viable or whether some builds had specific payoffs that might give you other hurdles (for instance, if you tagged Lockpicking, Gambling, and Outdoorsman, you were probably setting yourself up for a very difficult game with a few shining moments of payoff).

As we approached the end of the dev cycle, it became apparent that some weapon classes were just not keeping up. My stock testing character was an Unarmed/Speech/Science build, and obviously I just couldn't keep up with the endgame encounters while totally unarmed. This sort of testing triggered the creation of "unarmed weapons" such as the brass knuckles, spiked knuckles, and eventually the power fist. This was intended to let the character have an advancement track that would keep up with the enemy power curve. Its success is debatable; clearly when you're fighting centaurs and nightkin, even using the power fist is often a very tough row to hoe, and you rely on a lot of critical hits. Of course, unless you take the right perks, your crits are not guaranteed to do a lot of extra damage, so you may find yourself saving and reloading a lot!

Small Guns had several weapons that were certainly more viable for your endgame play (sniper rifle, .223 pistol) but obviously it wouldn't match up to a lot of energy weapons (turbo plasma rifle) or big guns (gatling gun, rocket launcher if you're feeling saucy). You were getting an immediate payoff for tagging Small Guns but this trade-off would haunt you later unless you slugged away a lot of skill points into skills that you weren't going to be using right off the bat.

I'll admit, the first time I played Fallout 3 and a mercenary dropped a laser pistol right outside of Vault 101, I was pretty surprised. I wasn't expecting all weapon classes to have representatives that ranged from the low end to the high end, thereby giving each weapon category a full scope of playability. It's an interesting design decision, and given the size and scope of games today, probably a better one -- the player doesn't become handicapped by a skill choice, but rather has the option to use his/her chosen skills and sometimes will discover that those skill choices provide extra special bonuses (if you happen to have a weapon that's very good against a particular enemy, for instance). This is harder to do if the player tags no combat skills, but hey, in that case the player ostensibly knows what he or she is getting into . . .

Anyway, that's all that I meant. The weapon skills in Fallout 1 were not designed to force you to spend a bunch of points on Small Guns, then have it become obsolete and force you to spend points on Energy Weapons. Rather, the choice was whether you wanted an immediate payoff or a later payoff. (Whether this actually succeeded in its design is a matter of interpretation by the player. I know that using Unarmed Combat in the endgame got pretty tedious for me.) In modern game design I'd say it's better if whatever your skill choices, you get SOME kind of payoff at each stage of the game, so that you have a more uniformly positive gameplay experience.
So whether good or bad, it was intentional.
 

Rogue

Educated
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
676
I definitely remember at least one plasma pistol in the sewers of Necropolis. If you wait until the mutants show up the talking one also has a laser rifle.

Apparently there are faster ways to get energy weapons. I started playing a few days ago, my character has 9 luck (for 24% critical chance at level 6). I completed Shady Sands phase 1, Vault 15 and Junktown and was on my way to The Hub to sell my awesome collection of weapons. I also bought lots of books and increased my outdoorsman skill to about 70. Then I went back to kill the Raiders and complete Shady Sands phase 2. After returning to The Hub for the 2nd time - to sell all the loot and finally do the quests - I came across a special encounter and found the Alien Blaster, an energy weapon which is totally awesome in so many ways. I was only level 5 at the time.
 

Eyeball

Arcane
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
Dicksmoker said:
That's a weak strawman and you know it.
Gotta agree with DS. If a game gives you the option of playing with several different types of weapons, it should make each weapon type be at least viable for the vast majority of the game. That is, you should be able to at least FIND a type of each weapon in the early game and each type should be at least powerful enough to scrape by the enemies.

The types don't have to be balanced or anything, but they should be viable. I actually think Arcanum is a pretty decent example of this, as crappy as the combat is - it is totally possible to win the game as a warrior, a gunfighter and a mage. Sure, a mage with Harm will win the game ten times easier than the other two types, but each type can fight and win from the beginning of the game to the last boss.

All FO games but NV and Tactics have so far failed on this account, IMO, as small guns really are the best, being far easier to find and feed with ammo than EWs and lighter and less ammo-consuming than BGs, who also tend to lack the variety in weapon types and damage penetration to make them viable against a lot of enemies such as the Enclave in FO2 and 3.

FoT was a special case in that EWs were pretty weak for most of the game but became KING once you began running into robot enemies, and big guns definitely had their place too.
 

Antihero

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
859
Eyeball said:
Dicksmoker said:
That's a weak strawman and you know it.
Gotta agree with DS. If a game gives you the option of playing with several different types of weapons, it should make each weapon type be at least viable for the vast majority of the game. That is, you should be able to at least FIND a type of each weapon in the early game and each type should be at least powerful enough to scrape by the enemies.

The types don't have to be balanced or anything, but they should be viable.

Speaking generally, in addition to Roguey's link, there's still fun in the challenge of waiting until a skill takes off later in the game where it might become more effective than the standard choice, but meanwhile you have to survive any other way you can. The other problem, sometimes, is in making that wait actually worthwhile. In System Shock 2, as an example of another game, I'm not sure how spending cyber-modules towards any of the exotic or heavy weapons besides the grenade launcher are better than just investing in standard weapons. They come too late, require otherwise fairly useless-seeming upgrades (higher research, except maybe for worm stuff), and just aren't that much better.

One type of ranged weapon skill shouldn't necessarily be a better choice for the entire game, otherwise you're just LARPing if you know you're taking the suboptimal choice. Make them close enough in effectiveness throughout - viable that you don't get killed or eat up too many stimpaks - and why again even bother having the difference (or head into FPS territory by just making them ammo and not skill constrained)?
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
Energy weapons and Big Guns are basically secondary ranged skills dependent on exotic/military grade weapons. Small guns is the main ranged skill as small guns are most prevalent among population.
It would be silly if energy weapons and big guns would be equally viable as small guns.
 

Dr.Faust

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Eyeball said:

I disagree. Part of the appeal in RPGs for me is the struggle to make do with the build of my choosing. I might make a wandering doctor with an interest in energy weapons and try to survive with that. It's not about minmaxing the best possible combat build. That kind of mindset is more suited to pure action games. The whole business of having to balance character builds just reeks of MMOfication.

I'll use mage and warrior archtypes in fantasy as an example. If any idiot with a gym and some free time can get as powerful as a person who can bend the laws of reality then why the hell do mages even bother? Magic should be overpowered when compared to a guy a with a big sword and some armor. Just keep it interesting by making the road to becoming a good spellcaster a long and arduous one, preferably with a twist that causes a high lethality rate.

I'd also like to remind that envisioning your character and giving him some sort of a personality and then choosing actions based on that has nothing to do with larping. Larping is doing actions in game that have absolutely no effect on the gameplay and is generally fucking silly. For example eating regularly in morrowind or taking a shit every ingame day.

But yeah, well, that's just like my opinion, man.
 

Antihero

Liturgist
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
859
Dr.Faust said:
I'd also like to remind that envisioning your character and giving him some sort of a personality and then choosing actions based on that has nothing to do with larping. Larping is doing actions in game that have absolutely no effect on the gameplay and is generally fucking silly. For example eating regularly in morrowind or taking a shit every ingame day.
Nothing wrong with having a type of character in mind - if none of that mattered, we'd all be happy playing some generic spreadsheet simulator. LARPing just seems to get used more freely around here and in a looser sense.

But yeah, well, that's just like my opinion, man.
I'm afraid that's not going to save your rug.
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
Edgy
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Cognitive Elite HQ
Seeing as how you can complete the game without fighting anything
naughtysquig.jpg
 

Sduibek

Creator of Fallout Fixt
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Codex 2013
First access to energy weapon should be at Necropolis, unless you're playing the game all weird. (Plasma Pistol in the sewers)
 

dunno lah

Arcane
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Apr 8, 2013
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Such a shame that laser weapons are largely useless in FO. Coz I like mah laz0rs...
Fucking 80% laser DR on power armor is fucking bullshit. They should've increased DT and decreased DR for the armors.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Lazors are low tech weapons good for fighting stick armed savages; the beam can easily deflected and unfocused. You want good energy weapons use Plasma or this weapons based on Alien Technology. Of course nothin will beat That Pistol or sniper riffle HMG like Bozaar. I made entire playthrough in FNV using only This Machine and The Light shone through Darkness. Fifties rules. :thumbsup:
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
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Such a shame that laser weapons are largely useless in FO. Coz I like mah laz0rs...

Actually, gatling laser is serviceable enough with sniper & better criticals combo - you simply ignore those high resistances and 200-400 damage per burst (and that's even without counting in the chance to get damage multiplier of up to 3.0) is enough to kill pretty much anyone. Just get that weapon skill to somewhere about 180 so your full burst hits, not just half of it.
 

dunno lah

Arcane
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180?? o_O

In all my playthroughs (two only), I've never raised any skill above 160 lol.
 

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