Energy weapons in Fallout 1?

[Sduibek]

*Oh, forgot to specify it wouldn't come with ammo (in the gun or otherwise). If that makes a difference.

 

[baturinsky]

Isn't whole idea of having separate skills for guns stupid? I'd just roll it on into "Guns" and add an extra Science requirement for using energy weapons. And for heavy weapons - kick up Str requirement a bit, with extra penalties for being below.

 

[agentorange]

Yeah, because the idea of being able to handle a rocket launcher because you can shoot a pistol pretty well isn't stupid. They did that in New Vegas anyway.

Sduibek , it could be interesting to be given a taste of a very powerful weapon at the start of the game, but be extremely limited in how much use you can get out of it.

 

[Pope Amole II]

I won't say it's either a decent or shitty idea, it's workable idea. If you give player the laser pistol from the get-go, it's not the end of the world - game will be far from broken, because he won't find reliable sources of batteries for a relatively long time and because laser pistol is far from being broken. It's not that different from your run of the mill shotgun, if not actually worse.

With the big ones - you can give the player a rocket launcher and, like, one or two spare missiles to it. Yeah, it'll be awesome. Each of the whole three shots.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I wouldn't bother with that personally, giving them something from the get-go.
Against unarmored opponents in FO2 the laser pistol was incredibly powerful. I hate thirty enemies split in half at one point after getting one in New Reno at like level 6 I think.

 

[baturinsky]

Yeah, because the idea of being able to handle a rocket launcher because you can shoot a pistol pretty well isn't stupid. They did that in New Vegas anyway.

Difference between handling pistol and assault rifle or sniper rifle, or rocket launcher and minigun is hardly smaller. And basic idea is the same - line up barrel with enemy and press a button. You just need enough strength to be able to do that with heavy guns.

 

[Pope Amole II]

That's, like, an illusion. Laser pistol deals 10-22 damage per shot, shotgun deals 12-22. If they're unarmored, resistances are equal, obviously. In leather jacket, resistances are equal. In leather armour, physical damage is slightly weaker - 2/25 versus 0/20. However, laser is horrible versus metal armour, as we all know. That's all of the early game armours. I'm kinda lazy to look at the critter stats, but it's not like you'll have enough batteries to shoot at the scorpions & shit like that freely. There shouldn't be any sort of significant difference.

 

[Sduibek]

Yeah, it'll be awesome. Each of the whole three shots.

Hahaha, this had me laughing really hard.

In light of your other statements, I think the only unbalancing aspect, even if given with ammo, is cost -- those weapons can be traded away for a decent amount of cash.

However, that could even be avoided as well -- a copy of the .PRO files for the weapon could be made, wherein all stats are identical except the caps value, which would be set to like 50 or some shit. Games such as Diablo 1 did this and I think it's a smart way to balance starting items from ruining beginning economy.

Thanks bros, this has been helpful.

 

[Gurkog]

When I made a ruthless badass heavy weapons expert in FO2 I went straight toward New Reno after hearing about it in the Den and stumbled across a random encounter with cliamjumpers using light machine guns... poor Sulik died in a hail of 7.62mm but I got the lowest version of big gun out of it. A shame that 7.62 ammo was fucking rare so I almost never used it anyway.

I remember my energy weapons character in FO1 didn't find any useable weapons until a plasma pistol under necropolis. Went thought almost the whole game without an energy weapon... was pretty boring.

 

[Sduibek]

When I made a ruthless badass heavy weapons expert in FO2 I went straight toward New Reno after hearing about it in the Den and stumbled across a random encounter with cliamjumpers using light machine guns... poor Sulik died in a hail of 7.62mm but I got the lowest version of big gun out of it. A shame that 7.62 ammo was fucking rare so I almost never used it anyway.

I remember my energy weapons character in FO1 didn't find any useable weapons until a plasma pistol under necropolis. Went thought almost the whole game without an energy weapon... was pretty boring.

Yeah, same experience here. I lost count how many times I've played the game and usually in character creation when I get the itch to tag EW i'm like "ehhhh...." because I know it's an "end game skill", like people who would pick skills on a new Diablo II character based solely on surviving in Hell difficulty. Which is like 50 levels away. That's no fuckin way to build characters or play a game.

There was a thread over on NMA about the laser pistol being awkward because by the time you get it, you have access to way more powerful weapons. I'll fiddle with giving a Laser Pistol to EW-taggers, that might actually be a good idea. :shrug: We'll see with testing.

 

[Arkadin]

Isn't whole idea of having separate skills for guns stupid? I'd just roll it on into "Guns" and add an extra Science requirement for using energy weapons. And for heavy weapons - kick up Str requirement a bit, with extra penalties for being below.

I liked the early investment / lack of reward for energy weapons in Fallouts because it makes that skill "feel" different. Same with the big guns, it gives these progressions a delayed sense, and back when I was even worse at games I liked the necessity of having to plan my skillpoints a little more carefully to be use these skills later once I found the weapons. Of course, they aren't really all that worth the investment at times, but that's a separate issue.

But I actually prefer what you've suggested in terms of nesting the requirements for using weapons or at least using them well, as you say "guns" and "science" for energy weapons. Gives a little more flexibility for character building. I still think energy weapons should be "special" and not how they're presented in New Vegas, where you can bloody start with them.

 

[dunno lah]

I think the laser pistol for an EW tagged character would be great. The way the vanilla game played out(if you were playing for the 1st time) kinda made laser pistol irrelevant. The laser pistol also isn't exactly game-breaking in power, only being slightly more powerful than deagle and absolutely useless against metal armor and above. So, maybe you could have a laser pistol with perhaps 6 shots instead of 12? For balance's sake. As for Big Guns, you'll have to be more creative about that. Maybe a Flamer in Junktown or something?

 

[AstroZombie]

I bought a few Rad-X and ran to The Glow.

When I made a ruthless badass heavy weapons expert in FO2 I went straight toward New Reno after hearing about it in the Den and stumbled across a random encounter with cliamjumpers using light machine guns... poor Sulik died in a hail of 7.62mm but I got the lowest version of big gun out of it. A shame that 7.62 ammo was fucking rare so I almost never used it anyway.

I remember my energy weapons character in FO1 didn't find any useable weapons until a plasma pistol under necropolis. Went thought almost the whole game without an energy weapon... was pretty boring.

I just got some rad-x, ran towards the glow and got the plasma pistol.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yes, fuck you, couldn't have said it better myself.

Edit: You know, seriously, you know what you do in that situation, if not being able to use energy weapons instantly even though you tagged it bothers you so much: START THE FUCKING GAME OVER YOU DUMB FUCK AND MAKE A NEW CHARACTER. What kind of pussy ass bitch rpg players are you faggots? Fuck off and stop playing Fallout.

Edit 2: No, it's not larping, it's fine that you can tag energy weapons at the start because it is a video game and the options makes it more fun. Wanting some realistic reason for why you are or are not able to tag energy weapons at the start of the game is larping.

DONUT CRITACIZE MAI GAEM U HATER

The game is good, no need to resort to "b-b-b-but it's a feature!" bullshit for every little problem it has.

Being able to talk your way through a quest that looked like it would end in a bloodbath is fun. Getting cool little messages during combat is fun. Being free to investigate the gameworld instead of being railroaded is fun. Investing in a skill and not finding use for it is the opposite of fun.

See, I can easily mention more good things about the game than bad ones, doesn't mean I'll turn a blind eye to the latter. Save the LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT hissy fit for someone else.

As far as every tag skill changing your loadout at the beginning, yeah that would be neat: the player could always just be given some ammo for the respective weapons for they eventually scavenge a means to use them.

See, this is a way to make the options actually fun. "So you're handy with lockpicking, medicine and energy weapons? Take some lockpicks, a doctor's bag and this Laser pistol from the armory, it's kind of shit but you'll be able to make some use of it. Btw, we really, really need that water chip."

 

[Sduibek]

Save the LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT hissy fit for someone else.

Like people at forums that scale to your level.

EDIT: Maybe that joke was funnier in my head. Oh well

 

[Roguey]

No, it doesn't, actually. Being able to tag any skill you want at the beginning just opens up more possibilities and makes the game funner.

It's opening up zero possibilities compared to not being able to tag it since the gameplay is functionally identical.

You're talking about theory, I'm talking about playing the game in actuality - I have had fun tagging energy weapons at the start and rushing for energy weapons early on,

Metaknowledge should not be required to have fun with a starting build.

 

[CappenVarra]

Who in their right mind tags Energy Weapons when you have Throwing just below and infinitely superior?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

DONUT CRITACIZE MAI GAEM U HATER

The game is good, no need to resort to "b-b-b-but it's a feature!" bullshit for every little problem it has.

Being able to talk your way through a quest that looked like it would end in a bloodbath is fun. Getting cool little messages during combat is fun. Being free to investigate the gameworld instead of being railroaded is fun. Investing in a skill and not finding use for it is the opposite of fun.

Except that you find use for it later in the game. Tagging Big Guns/Energy Weapons is trading having to develop two weapon skills (SA and BG/EW) for ability to use super-weapons like rocket launcher and plasma rifle later in game.
Also, why would anyone even choose BG/EW for basic weapon skill? Starting BG/EW is 11-20% and starting SG is 36-45%. With Tag, it's 31-40% vs 56-65%. Why would anyone pick a main weapon skill that guarantees lots of misses and would be slower to develop?

 

[Gurkog]

I preferred NV's way of handling energy weapons. There is only like 1-3 EW for early on with the better one being hard to maintain due to rairty, and ammo is rather scarce. Guns have tons of options from the start and ammo is rather plentiful. Guns are still more appealing to me early on, but energy weapons aren't a complete waste either... as opposed to FO1.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I preferred NV's way of handling energy weapons. There is only like 1-3 EW for early on with the better one being hard to maintain due to rairty, and ammo is rather scarce. Guns have tons of options from the start and ammo is rather plentiful. Guns are still more appealing to me early on, but energy weapons aren't a complete waste either... as opposed to FO1.

Energy weapons would still be at disadvantage at the start in Fo1 even if you'd start with laser pistol because you'd be 1 level behind in terms of skill. So, if you take energy weapons at the start, you're knowingly gimping your build. Which is a good hint of why not tag it as a sole weapon skill. List of equipment in the manual not including any, is another hint that you won't see any any time soon after starting the game.

Simply, lack of energy weapons and big guns at the start fulfils two functions:
1. Thematic - the newest achievements of technology are unavailable to most of civilians. They are possessed almost solely by military. Laser pistols are supposed to be for civilian use, but civilians in post-apocalyptic world don't have power cells.
Therefore most of factions use traditional guns with refilled bullets from Adytum.
(By the way, LA is absolutely horrible in this aspect - Gun Runners manufacturing energy weapons and ammo for them from scrap metal, some random scientist improving powered armour, random smith improving plasma rifle - WTF?)
2. Balance - you get super-powerful weapons but not for free - you need to first get good skill with small arms for the first part of the game and then you either have to have energy weapons/big guns tagged from the start (sacrificing one tag) or you have to tag them with a perk (sacrificing a perk) or you have to chose dump more skill points into them due to lack of tag coupled with low starting skill.
Then you have to earn one of them:
For example you get plasma pistol for investigating bodies in Necropolis or going to lower levels of The Glow. You get Laser Rifle for defeating the mutants in Necropolis. You get Plasma Rifle and Minigun for descending to the bottom of the Glow, etc.

 

[Sduibek]

It's funny to me when I see people saying energy weapons are a waste in Fallout 1. Clearly they've never played Fallout 1.

EDIT: Let me explain. Turbo Plasma Rifle + Fast Shot + Bonus Rate of Fire = 5 shots per combat round.

Just because a person personally dislikes energy weapons has no bearing on whether they're good or not.

On the other hand, CappenVarra has a decent point -- plasma grenades are far under-rated in Fallout 1. I can kill whole groups of enemies in one "shot", whole groups of higher-level enemies in two or three "shots". Few other weapons can do that. And with the Fast Shot stuff talked about above... damn son. Multiple AoE per round? Set me up.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's funny to me when I see people saying energy weapons are a waste in Fallout 1. Clearly they've never played Fallout 1.

EDIT: Let me explain. Turbo Plasma Rifle + Fast Shot + Bonus Rate of Fire = 5 shots per combat round.

Yeah, but by that point you're like halfway through the game and can take most of what's thrown your way unless you really suck at combat - which is why Gurkog said tagging energy is a waste; getting a jumpstart in it doesn't matter if you'll only be able to make use of the skill after you've gained enough experience to level it normally to a satisfactory %. Reminds me of someone who said that in FO2 melee was just as awesome as small guns once you get Slayer...which comes at level 18.

 

[Sduibek]

True true, fair enough.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Reminds me of someone who said that in FO2 melee was just as awesome as small guns once you get Slayer...which comes at level 18.

24. Which is much worse, obviously. Silent Death comes at 18, but it's not as useful.

Melee/unarmed characters do have their advantages, though - they get an adequate number of free skill boosts (best taken once your skill is past 120, obviously), they can save some stat points on luck & perception, melee characters can rush a louisville slugger pretty early and early-to-mid game is a breeze with that, unarmed characters have this excellent "hth evasion+jinxed/pariah dog" combo (though it works best at medium combat difficulty - on hard enemies don't miss that often). You can have a pleasant experience with them if you know what you're doing.

 

[Gurkog]

High luck + jinxed + pariah dog.... results in interesting critical failures for the enemy. The boss of v15 blew himself up when he tried to shoot me with his flamer... took out the guys around him too. Granted sulik chopped off his own leg and vic shot his own eye out, but that was no less hilarious.