Energy weapons in Fallout 1?

[Pope Amole II]

Yeah, 180. With burst weapons in fallout, each successive shot in the burst is resolved at -5% skill, and that penalty is cumulative, meaning that second shot in the burst is -5%, third is -10%, tenth is -45%, etc. Meaning that if you wish to hit with all of those shots, you really need to have a high weapon skill.

 

[Sduibek]

Yeah, 180. With burst weapons in fallout, each successive shot in the burst is resolved at -5% skill, and that penalty is cumulative, meaning that second shot in the burst is -5%, third is -10%, tenth is -45%, etc. Meaning that if you wish to hit with all of those shots, you really need to have a high weapon skill.

Can you show proof of this? I haven't heard it described this way before.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Can you show proof of this? I haven't heard it described this way before.

Hmm, couldn't google the source instantly so maybe I'm talking bullshit here. Read it somewhere on the fallout online forums, a long time ago, when their aim was to port f2's mechanics as precisely as possible.

 

[aweigh]

they did alright in F:NV with spreading out the weapon tiers. a little bit redundant actually. they did reserve the traditionally "big guns" weapons for Explosives, though, which is cool. (esther, fat man, rocket launcher, red glare, grenade launcher, grenade rifle, grenade machinegun) (yes, the grenade machinegun is exactly as broken as it sounds).

it was my girlfriend who used the energy weapons in F:NV though as i always use guns/melee and that was how i got to see that they're much superior to guns or melee because it's the most effective weapon path that requires the least amount of perks to give big returns to the player. without taking any perks at all you can craft energy weapon ammo that bypasses 10 DT, and since there are only 3 ammo types you can rest assured knowing it's used in a bunch of stuff. that is very unlike guns or melee or unarmed.

finally, in F:NV the all-around best weapon (yes, even better than a light shining in darkness or the survivalist's rifle) is the unique version of the plasma caster, the smitty special, because it has the fastest projectile fire rite out of any of the plasma weapons in the game and is also fully-automatic, has a large clip size and a decent spread and uses MFC which do normal damage and bypass 10 DT per projectile. you just hold down the button and deliver twice the amount of damage to the enemy with the smitty special than with any of the other weapons.

the only asterisk in F:NV is the dark horse that is the Unarmed tier. ever used it? insane stuff. check out the ballistic fist, two-step goodbye or the fist of rawr. combine it with the high-skill requirement unarmed perks and it's a good time. hell it's funny just to give veronica the two-step goodbye and watch her explode enemies.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Hmm, couldn't google the source instantly so maybe I'm talking bullshit here. Read it somewhere on the fallout online forums, a long time ago, when their aim was to port f2's mechanics as precisely as possible.

Oh .

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Gotta agree with DS. If a game gives you the option of playing with several different types of weapons, it should make each weapon type be at least viable for the vast majority of the game. That is, you should be able to at least FIND a type of each weapon in the early game and each type should be at least powerful enough to scrape by the enemies.

The types don't have to be balanced or anything, but they should be viable. I actually think Arcanum is a pretty decent example of this, as crappy as the combat is - it is totally possible to win the game as a warrior, a gunfighter and a mage. Sure, a mage with Harm will win the game ten times easier than the other two types, but each type can fight and win from the beginning of the game to the last boss.

All FO games but NV and Tactics have so far failed on this account, IMO, as small guns really are the best, being far easier to find and feed with ammo than EWs and lighter and less ammo-consuming than BGs, who also tend to lack the variety in weapon types and damage penetration to make them viable against a lot of enemies such as the Enclave in FO2 and 3.

FoT was a special case in that EWs were pretty weak for most of the game but became KING once you began running into robot enemies, and big guns definitely had their place too.

I agree, it makes them mostly useless. In FO2 it was least bad, through, because the game's bigger extent meant you got mileage out of energy weapons if you decided to shift halfway by putting some points and using the Tag perk. You could get laser pistol in New Reno, Plasma Pistol in the Toxic Caves (I always go there after Reno) and then the Plasma Rifle in the SAD, which can be easily upgraded to Turbo Plasma Rifle. I do think it was a SERIOUS mistake to place a freaking Plasma Rifle in the SAD. It would've been better if the Plasma Rifle was replaced by a Laser Rifle - Its a cool weapon that barely appears in the game, and would've made it progress more logically, as Plasma Rifles can be found in Military Base. Then you can buy Gatling Lasers in San Fran, and get Pulse Rifle once you got Vertibird plans.

I think its kind of a setting problem. In Fallout you begin in a Vault, it would actually make sense for them to have a energy weapon or two, but then you would run into the problem of having Shady Sands and Junktown have recharges for you, which would seriously clash with the towns. In FO2, its even worse: You begin in a tribe, first city is hicktown, second city is a slavertown full of junkies, not exactly part of the hi-tech trade circuit. In NV it actually makes a lot of sense for energy weapons to be viable in early game - Its a small area with much trading, and its also a warzone between NCR troopers, Legionnaries, Fiends and other factions duking it out. I do find it ridiculous to see Fiends toting so many energy weaponry but NCR soldiers barely pack any.

Yes, in FOT EW were pretty weak until robots. Interestingly enough, even the Gauss Rifle was shit against robots (in FO2 it is King), only small gun worth a damn against the robots was the Pancor Jackhammer loaded with EMP shells.

 

[groke]

How nostalgic, a Dicksmoker thread.

 

[Absalom]

180?? o_O

In all my playthroughs (two only), I've never raised any skill above 160 lol.

I've never raised them above 110,% and that's with some punching bags increasing unarmed above 100.% I don't think it's worth it with the diminishing returns

I got lucky and stumbled on the crashed UFO special encounter.

That Alien Blaster carried me to the end-game.

I have never seen that encounter. Nuffle giveth and Nuffle taketh

 

[agentorange]

180?? o_O

In all my playthroughs (two only), I've never raised any skill above 160 lol.

I've never raised them above 110,% and that's with some punching bags increasing unarmed above 100.% I don't think it's worth it with the diminishing returns

I got lucky and stumbled on the crashed UFO special encounter.

That Alien Blaster carried me to the end-game.

I have never seen that encounter. Nuffle giveth and Nuffle taketh

Just take 10 luck (or 9 and get the implant) and wander around the wastes, you'll eventually run into every random encounter. I also seem to get more random encounters when I take jinxed, but that could just be coincidence.

Also if you want every energy weapon early on just get around 60 speech (can be done by tagging it and leveling up once with decent int), then go straight to the super mutant camp. The speech will let you bluff your way past all the mutants, and you can go straight down to the room with all the cathedral cultists who are incredibly easy to kill and all have laser pistols. With some luck and a lot of corner abuse you can take down one of the mutants who has a rocket launcher, and once you have a rocket launcher its incredibly easy to take out every other mutant in the base and get their laser and plasma rifles.

 

[dunno lah]

180?? o_O

In all my playthroughs (two only), I've never raised any skill above 160 lol.

I've never raised them above 110,% and that's with some punching bags increasing unarmed above 100.% I don't think it's worth it with the diminishing returns

I got lucky and stumbled on the crashed UFO special encounter.

That Alien Blaster carried me to the end-game.

I have never seen that encounter. Nuffle giveth and Nuffle taketh

I think once you've reached the point where raising a weapon skill takes 3 points. The skill needn't be raised anymore (Unless you're into overkill).

Just take 10 luck (or 9 and get the implant) and wander around the wastes, you'll eventually run into every random encounter. I also seem to get more random encounters when I take jinxed, but that could just be coincidence.

Also if you want every energy weapon early on just get around 60 speech (can be done by tagging it and leveling up once with decent int), then go straight to the super mutant camp. The speech will let you bluff your way past all the mutants, and you can go straight down to the room with all the cathedral cultists who are incredibly easy to kill and all have laser pistols. With some luck and a lot of corner abuse you can take down one of the mutants who has a rocket launcher, and once you have a rocket launcher its incredibly easy to take out every other mutant in the base and get their laser and plasma rifles.

How the fuck can you do this without savescumming like crazy???

 

[agentorange]

180?? o_O

In all my playthroughs (two only), I've never raised any skill above 160 lol.

I've never raised them above 110,% and that's with some punching bags increasing unarmed above 100.% I don't think it's worth it with the diminishing returns

I got lucky and stumbled on the crashed UFO special encounter.

That Alien Blaster carried me to the end-game.

I have never seen that encounter. Nuffle giveth and Nuffle taketh

I think once you've reached the point where raising a weapon skill takes 3 points. The skill needn't be raised anymore (Unless you're into overkill).

Just take 10 luck (or 9 and get the implant) and wander around the wastes, you'll eventually run into every random encounter. I also seem to get more random encounters when I take jinxed, but that could just be coincidence.

Also if you want every energy weapon early on just get around 60 speech (can be done by tagging it and leveling up once with decent int), then go straight to the super mutant camp. The speech will let you bluff your way past all the mutants, and you can go straight down to the room with all the cathedral cultists who are incredibly easy to kill and all have laser pistols. With some luck and a lot of corner abuse you can take down one of the mutants who has a rocket launcher, and once you have a rocket launcher its incredibly easy to take out every other mutant in the base and get their laser and plasma rifles.

How the fuck can you do this without savescumming like crazy???

You'll have to savescumm at first, but once you get used to using corners to maximum effectiveness and knowing to aim for eyes/legs/arms you'll be able to do it with minimal saving/reloading.

You could also just go to the necropolis and find a plasma pistol in the sewers (just have to take out some giant mole rats which aren't that difficult); could even go for the super mutants there as well, since only two of them have ranged weapons, a laser rifle and a flamethrower, and they can all be taken down with some strategy. High agility + melee or unarmed and grenades are your friends.

 

[Daemongar]

Gotta agree with DS. If a game gives you the option of playing with several different types of weapons, it should make each weapon type be at least viable for the vast majority of the game. That is, you should be able to at least FIND a type of each weapon in the early game and each type should be at least powerful enough to scrape by the enemies.

I disagree. The manual states "The use of energy weapons is not a very common skill in the Vault. Energy weapons had just started to come into actual use in warfare, when the world blew up. " They could have worded it strongly, but at least they had some message about it. I am totally against all weapons being equally viable. As much as taking or tagging a skill may sound good because the skill sounds fun, why should every build be equal? What's the difference *what* weapon skill you take if all are balanced and do equivalent levels of damage? If big guns is the same as small guns is the same as Energy Weapons, why have 3 ranged weapons? Since they'd all have to scale to all phases of the game, all variation is cosmetic.

First third of game: weapon that attacks 3x per round at 6 points per attack (small weapon), or weapon that attacks 2x per round at 9 points damage per attack (energy) or weapon that attacks once per round at 12 points per attack (big guns).
Second third of game: weapon that attacks 3x per round for 18 points per attack (small weapon) or weapons that attacks 2x per round at 27 dmg per attack, or 56 dmg in one attack.
Last third, repeat.

You are arguing ->for the above<-. All weapons being equally viable may prevent imbalance, but at the minimum, Fallout asked the player to think it through. It may be unfair that you don't find Energy Weapons, but at least their scarcity was mentioned and you could still use other weapons (though not as effectively.)

 

[Mastermind]

Can you show proof of this? I haven't heard it described this way before.

Hmm, couldn't google the source instantly so maybe I'm talking bullshit here. Read it somewhere on the fallout online forums, a long time ago, when their aim was to port f2's mechanics as precisely as possible.

I think you're getting it mixed up with D&D.

 

[Roguey]

I disagree. The manual states "The use of energy weapons is not a very common skill in the Vault. Energy weapons had just started to come into actual use in warfare, when the world blew up. " They could have worded it strongly, but at least they had some message about it.

If it's so uncommon, why is it something you can even tag at the beginning? Fallout is dumb, dumber than Wasteland.

 

[agentorange]

I disagree. The manual states "The use of energy weapons is not a very common skill in the Vault. Energy weapons had just started to come into actual use in warfare, when the world blew up. " They could have worded it strongly, but at least they had some message about it.

If it's so uncommon, why is it something you can even tag at the beginning? Fallout is dumb, dumber than Wasteland.

As the person who would be chosen to head into outside world as the savior of the vault, it's not unlikely that you would have been trained with the few energy weapons the vault might have had. That or it's simply innate talent, you just happen to adapt very well to the use of energy weapons without having ever used one.


The real reason is because it is a video game you dumb fuck.

 

[Roguey]

As the person who would be chosen to head into outside world as the savior of the vault, it's not unlikely that you would have been trained with the few energy weapons the vault might have had. That or it's simply innate talent, you just happen to adapt very well to the use of energy weapons without having ever used one.


The real reason is because it is a video game you dumb fuck.

So why didn't they give you any? Why aren't there any at all in the Vault's weapon supply closet?

I'm all for ~gamey~ character systems but this is one case where the ability to tag and put points into a skill way before you can even see an energy weapon just make it needlessly worse.

 

[DragoFireheart]

If it's so uncommon, why is it something you can even tag at the beginning? Fallout is dumb, dumber than Wasteland.

Because fiction is fun you fuckhead.

 

[Roguey]

If it's so uncommon, why is it something you can even tag at the beginning? Fallout is dumb, dumber than Wasteland.

Because fiction is fun you fuckhead.

Noob traps are pointless and not-fun unless your idea of a good time is fooling yourself into believing you're so much better than those who fall into the trap.

 

[agentorange]

As the person who would be chosen to head into outside world as the savior of the vault, it's not unlikely that you would have been trained with the few energy weapons the vault might have had. That or it's simply innate talent, you just happen to adapt very well to the use of energy weapons without having ever used one.


The real reason is because it is a video game you dumb fuck.

So why didn't they give you any? Why aren't there any at all in the Vault's weapon supply closet?

I'm all for ~gamey~ character systems but this is one case where the ability to tag and put points into a skill way before you can even see an energy weapon just make it needlessly worse.

No, it doesn't, actually. Being able to tag any skill you want at the beginning just opens up more possibilities and makes the game funner. You're talking about theory, I'm talking about playing the game in actuality - I have had fun tagging energy weapons at the start and rushing for energy weapons early on, I've also had fun in the playthroughs where I don't tag energy weapons, it's never hampered my enjoyment that I could tag the skill at the start of the game. As for why you aren't given an energy weapon at the start; use your imagination: maybe they gave the only one they had to the last guy they sent out of the vault, maybe they ran out of my energy cells for it, maybe they deconstructed the thing in an attempt to use the parts to fix the water-chip.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Not that I fully agree with Roguey (about being barred from tagging Energy Weapons being a good thing - it isn't), but that's just making borderline-larping excuses. You aren't given an energy weapon because fuck you, should have tagged something else.

 

[agentorange]

Yes, fuck you, couldn't have said it better myself.

Edit: You know, seriously, you know what you do in that situation, if not being able to use energy weapons instantly even though you tagged it bothers you so much: START THE FUCKING GAME OVER YOU DUMB FUCK AND MAKE A NEW CHARACTER. What kind of pussy ass bitch rpg players are you faggots? Fuck off and stop playing Fallout.

Edit 2: No, it's not larping, it's fine that you can tag energy weapons at the start because it is a video game and the options makes it more fun. Wanting some realistic reason for why you are or are not able to tag energy weapons at the start of the game is larping.

 

[Pope Amole II]

"All weapons are equal, but slightly different" is total bullshit for fallout-like gameplay. We're not talking about tactical popamole here, we're talking about a game that's mostly based on exploration & management, and weapon choices should reward & punish those. So you tag energy weapons or big guns from the start, so you don't have them, so what? It's not like you absolutely must fight anything and are absolutely stuck without them - you don't have them, go find them! And when you find them, it's creates an absolutely "FUCK YEAH!!!" moment. I'm not talking out of my ass here - I've just had this very precise moment in fallout 2, getting a sudden laser rifle from a relatively early encounter. God, that was awesome.

Not to mention that we're supposed to talk about fucking post-apocalyptic world with the supposed scarcity of everything (not that fallout series were ever good at that), so it's not like there should be an abundance of batteries for energy weapons or, help God, ammo for the big guns.

 

[agentorange]

 

[Sduibek]

@Amole & agentorange, As far as realism/balance/RPing, do you think it would be a decent idea or shitty idea to give a 'big gun' or energy weapon at the beginning of the game to a player that tagged Big Guns or Energy Weapons (respectively)?

Of course it would be the weakest of each class, definitely Laster Pistol for EW. For big guns... hm. Big Guns is a little sillier because starting with a Flamer or Minigun just wouldn't make sense. I can see a laser pistol though because maybe it was in the Overseer's stash or blah blah whatever.

I dunno. Personally I always thought every single tag skill should change your starting inventory. But it's not the case, only about half of them do.

 

[agentorange]

Eh, as pope amole said, finding an energy weapon or a big gun was always a real turning point for your character; there's also the fact that a lot of the early game stuff isn't going to stand a chance against laser weapons or a chaingun - and if you were to just run off to the higher levels areas with them, then you probably have the skills and meta-knowkedge to get energy and big weapons in those areas anyway so the fact that you get them at the start is rendered somewhat meaningless. I don't think it would make a big difference, but we certainly wouldn't be having discussions about strategies for getting energy weapons as quickly as possible if you were just given one at the start.

As far as every tag skill changing your loadout at the beginning, yeah that would be neat: the player could always just be given some ammo for the respective weapons for they eventually scavenge a means to use them.