Esoteric Ebb - Disco-like using 5e ruleset where you are cleric uncovering political conspiracy with goblin sidekick

[plem]

the idea seems decent but did the interface really have to be exactly like Disco Elysium's?

and 5E is such a bad system for a dialogue game. its skill system is so barebones and its focus is obviously in combat, so why use that for a talky narrative game? it'd be a much better idea to use something like the World of Darkness games where the system itself is built for social interaction.

 

[Spectacle]

the idea seems decent but did the interface really have to be exactly like Disco Elysium's?

and 5E is such a bad system for a dialogue game. its skill system is so barebones and its focus is obviously in combat, so why use that for a talky narrative game? it'd be a much better idea to use something like the World of Darkness games where the system itself is built for social interaction.

How does social interaction work in the WoD games?

 

[plem]

the idea seems decent but did the interface really have to be exactly like Disco Elysium's?

and 5E is such a bad system for a dialogue game. its skill system is so barebones and its focus is obviously in combat, so why use that for a talky narrative game? it'd be a much better idea to use something like the World of Darkness games where the system itself is built for social interaction.

How does social interaction work in the WoD games?

I'm mostly familiar with Vampire. at its core it's still mostly skill checks, but social skills are more varied and checks are a combination of any atribute and a skill. so depending on the approach you could need a very different set of skills to deceive someone or persuade them. also, almost all Disciplines have uses in dialogue, the obvious ones are Dominate and Presence but Auspex can be used to tell if someone is lying, Dementation can be used to mess with someone's head, Protean can freak people out, etc. I think the same principle applies to Mage spell spheres and Werewolf abilities.

 

[Salvo]

Could be a clever idea but the DE inspiration ruins it

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Not an RPG.

5e or this game?

if I make a game that says it's 5e and all you do is walk around then it ends, would it be an RPG?

This is a visual novel, they advertise it as an RPG because it gets more sales. It's not an RPG.

 

[Cryomancer]

• Cleric only
• 5e
• Disco communism based

Next...

 

[cyborgboy95]

 

[Alex]

Why not just make a CYOA novel instead, it (snip...)

Isn't that what "Disco Clone" means?

 

[Harthwain]

Isn't that what "Disco Clone" means?

Not really. That's a very shallow reasoning, but I am not surprised to see it from people who simply don't get what made Disco "click". If you want to recreate the success of Disco Elysium merely by aping its UI and the writing walls of boring text (because "Disco Elysium has the walls of text!!!111101") then be prepared for a disappointment.

Look at cRPGs at large. You ought to notice that what people try to criticize Disco for (the dialogues/text, the C&C, dice rolls, etc.) are pretty much a staple of the genre. Only Disco does it in way better style and with more creativity so it is interesting to read through, while utilizing the keystone tabletop RPG rules (dice rolls, the actual character's perception, etc.) in the process. This is why it does feel like a proper RPG, even though it has no combat.

Combat - the much-vaunted and missing element, according to Disco's detractors - is not as defining aspect of an RPG as some would make you believe. It is simply another tool for players to use. It can be fun and good addition to the system when handled well, but it does not an RPG make (otherwise we'd have to broaden the definition of an RPG by a whole lot). And because Disco has a lot of choices to pick from (even though they are ultimately cosmetic, due to narrative aspect of the game, which is - by the way - a criticism that can be applied to Codex darlings such as Planescape: Torment, for example) the "loss" of combat is not felt by 94% of people.

Oh, and about the claim that people who read a lot of text do so, because they can't be bothered to pick a "proper" book - that's bullshit. If you can't be bothered to read, then you can't be bothered to read. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about book or a video game with a lot of text in it. The reason people like reading in Disco is because its text is interesting to read (and a lot of thought went into making it so). As would be the case with ANY well-written book. In addition, unlike books, Disco offers choices/interactivity that give players the illusion of agency. Something any true RPG should be striving for. Or at least a narrative RPG.

If Esoteric Ebb can do that, then it should be received pretty well.

 

[vota DC]

Why not just make a CYOA novel instead, it seems like it leads towards that better than an RPG. The satirical writing looks cringe inducing. Is this what Disco Elysium dialogue was like?

Also, is there any meaningful C&C or is it all an illusion like most games?

But cyoa Is the new RPG: Anton Rayne said that!

 

[Alex]

I see, so "disco elysium" clone is a subgenre of cyoa games that are made by commies. A "choose your own gulag" if you will...








It is such a pity they gave up on the game being about beating up furries.

 

[Infinitron]

Reposting from the Pentiment thread:

My problem with saying Disco Elysium isn't an RPG is that it seems that Planescape: Torment's Sigil minus trash mobs would play in a very similar way. I think there are other aspects of Disco Elysium's design besides character progression and skill checks that make it RPG-like. The way characters and quests are laid out isn't the same as in a typical adventure game, where characters basically only exist in the world to participate in one-off puzzles and story events. The game's characters work like typical roleplaying game town NPCs, persistent in the world with extensive dialogue trees that you can revisit at any time.

I assume that the contrast I drew with the adventure genre also holds for "CYOA games".

 

[bionicman]

the topic of whether disco elysium is an RPG or not is the most autistic thing to discuss, touch some grass guys...

 

[NJClaw]

Is there going to be combat

 

[Harthwain]

Is there going to be combat

Literally from the OP:

Set-piece combat sequences. Clerics in Norvik are taught to use violence as a last resort only, although not everyone follows the mantra so strictly. When need does arise, a roll of the dice determines life or death.

 

[smaug]

Isn't that what "Disco Clone" means?

Oh, and about the claim that people who read a lot of text do so, because they can't be bothered to pick a "proper" book - that's bullshit. If you can't be bothered to read, then you can't be bothered to read. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about book or a video game with a lot of text in it. The reason people like reading in Disco is because its text is interesting to read (and a lot of thought went into making it so). As would be the case with ANY well-written book. In addition, unlike books, .Disco offers choices/interactivity that give players the illusion of agency. Something any true RPG should be striving for. Or at least a narrative RPG.

If Esoteric Ebb can do that, then it should be received pretty well.

Oh, so you don't care about actually agency. Just the illusion of agency, which also applies to C&C. I thought the codex hated fake choices that all ultimately led to the same outcomes was considered the hallmarks of shit RPGS.

 

[Alex]

the topic of whether disco elysium is an RPG or not is the most autistic thing to discuss, touch some grass guys...

Yeah. The topic of whether CYOAs in general are or at least can be an RPG on the other hand...

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Why not just make a CYOA novel instead, it (snip...)

Isn't that what "Disco Clone" means?

yes except they market it as an rpg for increased sales

if people think this is about anything but rpgs selling far better than cyoa novels/visual novels/etc., you're insane.

and to anyone making an adventure game like say beautiful desolation, I suggest marketing it as an RPG. Especially when they decide to lump you into RPG bundles already.

 

[NJClaw]

Is there going to be combat

Literally from the OP:

Set-piece combat sequences. Clerics in Norvik are taught to use violence as a last resort only, although not everyone follows the mantra so strictly. When need does arise, a roll of the dice determines life or death.

"Set-piece combat sequences" is a $15 word salad that doesn't really tell me anything. Disco Elysium has "set-piece combat sequences", but according to most people here it doesn't have combat.

 

[MuffinBun]

Combat - the much-vaunted and missing element, according to Disco's detractors - is not as defining aspect of an RPG as some would make you believe. It is simply another tool for players to use. It can be fun and good addition to the system when handled well, but it does not an RPG make (otherwise we'd have to broaden the definition of an RPG by a whole lot).

If combat was to be considered one of the sine qua non elements of an rpg, 99% of self professed rpgs would be fine. Its only oddballs like Disco that would be left out. The reason combat is unique in that respect, and not just 'another tool to use', is that it is the mechanic when it comes to this type of games. It goes further in detail and complexity than anything that would be meant to supplant it, like persuasion systems, environmental interactions etc. I think it is then fair to say that the game retains its rpg character in case of lack of a combat system, only if it provides something of similar practical or technical depth as a solution to solve problems in the game world.

I think that, for example, a complex magic system, as a way of interacting with the game world, could replace combat and hold similar weight.
Beyond that, there's also another reason why combat is special and uniquely game-y that I could mention, but I dont want to be accused of Jesse, WTF am I reading etc farming that would imminently follow. From none other than the likes of you, Harthwain!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I think it is then fair to say that the game retains its rpg character in case of lack of a combat system, only if it provides something of similar practical or technical depth as a solution to solve problems in the game world.

I think that, for example, a complex magic system, as a way of interacting with the game world, could replace combat and hold similar weight.

We already have examples of this in e.g., Harvest Moon. Well, at least as far as JRPGs go anyways I guess.

Dialogue can not and will not in the foreseeable future replace combat because it's simply too difficult to simulate meaningful dialogue with a persistent narrative and player agency. It would have to be abstracted to something that ends up resembling combat, except a lot dumber, and end up not resembling actual dialogue at all. This is undoubtedly an area where tabletop RPGs reign supreme and video game designers who insist upon throwing away the strengths of cRPGs to try to grasp a tiny portion of what tabletop RPGs are capable of are fools.
Dialogue trees have quickly become my most hated cRPG feature because designers have realized how easy it is to shove anything into a dialogue tree and pretend it's a full-fledged feature. We have a perfect example right here:

Is there going to be combat

Literally from the OP:

Set-piece combat sequences. Clerics in Norvik are taught to use violence as a last resort only, although not everyone follows the mantra so strictly. When need does arise, a roll of the dice determines life or death.

"Set-piece combat sequences" is a $15 word salad that doesn't really tell me anything. Disco Elysium has "set-piece combat sequences", but according to most people here it doesn't have combat.

Of course there's no proper combat beyond "click the dialogue choice and pick a random number", but they pretend this is a real combat system and some people actually go along with the horseshit.

Then again, there's a large fanbase of clapping seals who think it's actually good design to interact with the world solely through color-coded, skill-labeled dialogue choices.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

But cyoa Is the new RPG: Anton Rayne said that!

Spoiler

For those who haven't played it: Suzerain, a political simulator CYOA by Torpor Games, where the PC is President Anton Rayne

I assume that the contrast I drew with the adventure genre also holds for "CYOA games".

Adventure games are based around puzzles, which are lacking in Disco Elysium. CYOA, however, is fully contained within Disco Elysium; the distinction is that Disco Elysium contains additional elements drawn from the RPG genre that are not found in pure CYOA. In paper format, such CYOAs with RPG elements have existed since the early 1980s and were referred to as gamebooks. It seems reasonable to include Disco Elysium in the genre of digital gamebooks, along with Warlock of Firetop Mountain (2016) and so forth.

the topic of whether disco elysium is an RPG or not is the most autistic thing to discuss, touch some grass guys...

Welcome to RPG Codex!

 

[Harthwain]

If combat was to be considered one of the sine qua non elements of an rpg, 99% of self professed rpgs would be fine. Its only oddballs like Disco that would be left out.

Precisely. People who talk about the lack of combat are simply missing the point entirely.

The reason combat is unique in that respect, and not just 'another tool to use', is that it is the mechanic when it comes to this type of games. It goes further in detail and complexity than anything that would be meant to supplant it, like persuasion systems, environmental interactions etc. I think it is then fair to say that the game retains its rpg character in case of lack of a combat system, only if it provides something of similar practical or technical depth as a solution to solve problems in the game world.

Very good. The only caveat in your argument is that combat "goes further in detail and complexity and anything that would be meant to supplant it, like persuasion systems, environmental interactions etc.". This is so due to tabletop roots of the RPGs. However, there are already tabletop RPGs that put more weight on things that are outside of combat. Arguably Disco Elysium is one such example, as a homebrew RPG that got turned into a cRPG. They even planned for it to have its own combat layer early in the development at some point, if this concept art is to believed. Additionally, the non-combat aspects are easier to govern (success or failure), therefore they don't require as complex - and impartial - management system as combat does. At least this was the case in the past.

 

[cyborgboy95]

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

No gameplay in sight other than clicking around like in an adventure game. Therefore not an rpg.