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Expeditions: Rome - the final Expeditions game from Logic Artists

Rieser

Scholar
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
322
This introduction is very railroady, more so than the predecessors' dito, which makes it a bit hard to judge. Combat seems mostly fine even if it has been simplified. There's only one legion battle right at the end and it's a tutorial one, so it's not too easy to judge that either. Could be good? I do like the UI and general visual design compared to previous games (though that one can be somewhat divisive).

My main issue is the PC. When creating him you get to pick one of three ways he'll use to get what he wants in dialogue (charm, logic and authority, basically) and are from then on locked in on that, so in every dialogue where it comes up you see three different options with two greyed out and are then forced to pick your "alignment". It's a system that so far seems entirely like hot garbage. Hot garbage as in one of the worst systems I've ever seen for dialogues in RPG's. It's like fucking Mass Effect except that you choose Paragon or Renegade right at the start of the game and then have to "choose" that pick every single time, while being teased with what the other option would've let you do.
 

jackofshadows

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
5,088
My main issue is the PC. When creating him you get to pick one of three ways he'll use to get what he wants in dialogue (charm, logic and authority, basically) and are from then on locked in on that, so in every dialogue where it comes up you see three different options with two greyed out and are then forced to pick your "alignment". It's a system that so far seems entirely like hot garbage. Hot garbage as in one of the worst systems I've ever seen for dialogues in RPG's. It's like fucking Mass Effect except that you choose Paragon or Renegade right at the start of the game and then have to "choose" that pick every single time, while being teased with what the other option would've let you do.
The idea as I see it is to tease you enough before you get to choose the second "alignment". Which doesn't make it less stupid however.

Played some more and liked it a bit more even if the combat on insane feels rather like a series of tactical puzzles than more or less the usual RPG experience. UI is kinda nice. VO is alright although I don't care for the full one. Customization sucks, attributes are gone, lol.

But either way they can fuck right off with this price tag. It plays like streamlined/simplified/consolzied Expedition game just with slightly prettier graphics and full VO no one asked for.
 
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Self-Ejected

NIGERundayoHater

Self-Ejected
Joined
Dec 19, 2021
Messages
16
It plays like streamlined/simplified/consolzied Expedition game just with slightly prettier graphics and full VO no one asked for.

They're 100% betting on casual-normie mainstream market. Whatever hopes and dreams you had as a supporter of the franchise was dashed with Vikings, and now Rome is here to deliver the final nail in the coffin. At least with Vikings you could cope by saying "they're experimenting, it's okay mistakes are gonna be learned, trust the plan etc", with Rome it's so obvious it hurts.

Sometimes it feels like non-casual playerbase is just a stepping stone for indies to achieve enough motion in order to break into the mainstream.
 

HoboForEternity

LIBERAL PROPAGANDIST
Patron
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
9,420
Location
liberal utopia in progress
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This introduction is very railroady, more so than the predecessors' dito, which makes it a bit hard to judge. Combat seems mostly fine even if it has been simplified. There's only one legion battle right at the end and it's a tutorial one, so it's not too easy to judge that either. Could be good? I do like the UI and general visual design compared to previous games (though that one can be somewhat divisive).

My main issue is the PC. When creating him you get to pick one of three ways he'll use to get what he wants in dialogue (charm, logic and authority, basically) and are from then on locked in on that, so in every dialogue where it comes up you see three different options with two greyed out and are then forced to pick your "alignment". It's a system that so far seems entirely like hot garbage. Hot garbage as in one of the worst systems I've ever seen for dialogues in RPG's. It's like fucking Mass Effect except that you choose Paragon or Renegade right at the start of the game and then have to "choose" that pick every single time, while being teased with what the other option would've let you do.
I dunno, i dont see nothing wrong with dialogue system as it dont have much different picking different speech skill such as persuasion and intimidation. It's all depend on how they will handle quests and dialogue in the full game.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth


https://thqnordic.com/article/expeditions-rome-learn-how-fight-republic-new-combat-trailer

Vindobona, Noricum / Hafnia, Daniae, Decembris XX, MMXXI: "Si vis pacem, para bellum!" If you want peace, prepare for war! The Roman Empire was built on military power. Their disciplined, well-organized, and well-equipped legions conquered almost all of Europe, North Africa, and parts of western Asia. In the upcoming cRPG Expeditions: Rome you are taking command of Legio Victrix, in order to fight against the enemies of the Republic of Rome. In the latest trailer, Centurio Caeso Aquilinius gives the new recruits a proper drill and explains, how exactly the turn-based combat In Expeditions: Rome works. So prepare to learn about the use of the Gladius, a Scutum, and the famous Roman Pilum.

Want to try the combat for yourself? Download the Expeditions: Rome demo on Steam: https://thqn.net/rome-steam

Watch the new trailer: https://youtu.be/UEtQsZIsocs

Expeditions: Rome will launch on January 20th, 2022 on PC at an SRP of $ 44.99 | € 44.99 | £ 36.99.
You can pre-order now on Steam to get a 20% discount: https://thqn.net/rome-steam
 
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zapotec

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
1,501
Interesting that black guy is called BESTIA (the anima being sents to the circus fights)
 

Sensuki

Arcane
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Messages
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Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Recorded a couple of battles for feedback on the difficulty, thought I might post them here.




It was my third time through on them (reloading a save)
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://community.expeditionsseries...ary-13-building-a-great-combat-encounter-r20/

DevDiary 13 - Building a Great Combat Encounter

Ave, and welcome to our lucky 13th DevDiary. It’s been a very big week for us since diary 12 just last week – you’ll notice the schedule has sped up now that we’re getting closer to release. The Christmas break will put the brakes on that for a few weeks, but we wanted to be sure to get one more DevDiary out before the holidays seeing as how we just released our public demo of Expeditions: Rome.

That’s right! If you haven’t already, you should immediately proceed over to Steam to download our demo and give the game a spin. It’s a frankly huge demo, letting you play the first 4-6 hours of the game – just enough to get you out of the tutorial and through 6-7 combat encounters, meet the main cast, get a glimpse at the outpost upgrades and customisation, and even try a legion battle. If you like it all, there is a handy Buy Now button for pre-ordering the game right there in the main menu.




This isn’t an ad break though, so let’s get to today’s topic: level design. Or as we call it: world-building. Why the distinction? To us, the physical space that you get to visit in our games must feel like a real place where people live. It’s important to us that every level/instance/map/area/location feels hand-crafted and lovingly filled with personality and story. This can sometimes be at odds with the need to make our levels facilitate tactically interesting combat, but in Expeditions: Rome we hope we’ve mastered that challenge.

In Expeditions, every new level begins with a narrative context. Even a random encounter level or a purely combat-focused so-called “pacification quest” level will have some snippet of story associated with it that helps guide the creativity of the world builder. This isn’t just about placing the level geographically so the environment artists will know what kind of nature or architecture to sculpt. At the earliest stage it’s just as much about creating a feeling in the player. A bustling overpopulated metropolis on the banks of the Nile will need a very different layout than a small quiet fishing village on the coast of the Sea of Marmara.



This nebulous yet crucial idea of “feel” will also inform the combat design in important ways. Overwhelming the player with the size and freedom of choice of a wide-open battlefield, or making them feel claustrophobic and limited in a smaller room, are important ways to sell the fantasy of a particular scene. A mix of open spaces with narrow corridors and chokepoints creates variation between encounters and gives the player a choice of fighting somewhere that fits their tactical play style.

No design choice is purely about gameplay in a game as story-driven as Rome, but the gameplay is generally the most important aspect of level design. Pathing choices is one of the driving factors when setting up an encounter area: by placing small islands of obstacles in an open space, we create smaller paths that lead to the same area. When faced with multiple paths, the player begins to think about why they should go left or right. That choice can be based on enemy positioning, what cover is provided along either path, or if one path is slightly longer than the other. Conversely, an open space gives the player more freedom to manoeuvre around enemies, but also makes it more difficult to control enemy movement and positioning.



Height differences have also been a huge focus for us this time around. Encounters in Expeditions: Viking usually took place on flat planes, and several mechanics in the game were designed around that relatively 2-dimensional landscape. In Rome, we wanted to use elevation better, which involved redesigning ranged attacks to use a real line-of-sight check and giving archers a bonus to their range from high ground. The most important piece of that puzzle was to make sure the levels themselves offered high ground and permitted vertical movement.

Designing levels with plenty of vertical elements such as cliffs or scaffolds creates a height difference that separates hexes from each other by their edges instead of needing to place an empty hex between them. This is another, different form of pathing choice. A landscape with a lot of verticality will block the player’s vision and occasionally force the player to rotate the camera to see the encounter area from a different angle, which gives the player new ideas for how they could approach a problem they’re trying to solve.

We also added new ways to traverse those new obstacles, in the form of ladders and jump points. Using a ladder as a shortcut while another character flanks around makes you feel smart, as does spotting a jump point to get quickly from an elevated platform to a lower position. Not only does jumping off a cliff look and feel cool, it connects the different paths of an encounter area in interesting ways since you can typically only jump in one direction (thanks gravity).



Traversal isn’t the only way to interact with the environment, however. We’ve also implemented a host of new combat objects to use during an encounter. Many combat objects allow you to pick up tactical items just until the end of combat, such as torches from a bonfire, water from a well, or bandages from a medicine box. Other objects can change the battlefield if damaged, such as oil jars which can make someone’s day a lot worse if targeted with a fire arrow.

As described in previous DevDiaries, we’re extremely proud of our combat system, our character classes, our weapon skills, and all the other mechanics and features that underpin the tactical puzzle of combat in Expeditions: Rome. But all that work would have been all but wasted without the carefully hand-crafted combat encounters and the incredible attention to detail in our level design in general. To finish this diary, let’s look at how all these considerations come into play in a particular encounter: the Lion Hunters of Memphis.




The context of this fight is simple: the temple of the cat-headed goddess Ubaste has asked you to free a small pride of lions that have been captured and brought into Memphis for use in the arena. The lions are held in cages in a compound used by the hunters that caught them. The compound is a group of buildings surrounding a courtyard that forms the combat area, though it also spills out into the surrounding streets. The intention here is to create a sense that you’re breaching a guarded compound like some kind of SWAT team of antiquity.

To this end, the compound has three entrances, and your preparation area at the beginning of the fight will depend on which door you enter through. Because hunters and bows are tightly connected, the lion hunters have four archers, which are posted on the rooftops of four different buildings to give them height advantage. Because they can see almost every part of the encounter area from up there, the player will want to remove them from the fight as early as possible, but may be forced to split up their praetorians to achieve this, which could put them at great risk.





The enemies that start in the courtyard are mostly militia, but with two Light Infantry characters thrown in – these are fragile but mobile high-damage dealers. Prioritising whether to lock down the archers or neutralise those light infantrymen first is an interesting tactical choice, and the difficulty of either option varies hugely based on the class composition of your own party as well as which entry point you chose.

What makes this fight particularly exciting is how it evolves over time. Two more light infantrymen are positioned around the back of the large building, at such a distance to the courtyard that they will tend to arrive 2-3 turns into the fight, which may force the player to reposition. Even more threatening, two pairs of Egyptian soldiers are standing down the street on either side of the compound. When the fight breaks out, nearby civilians will run to alert them. These are much more formidable foes, two of them wielding shields, and they will join the fight a few turns after those two light infantrymen.




As a final wrinkle, several interactive combat objects are placed in the encounter area: a well in the middle of the courtyard offers water jugs, a barrel of javelins await on a rooftop, and a crate of oil jars sits beside a box of bandages around the back of the building. The enemies can make use of these items just as well as you can, so controlling access to them can be vital on higher difficulties.

Hopefully you can see how the layout and enemy placement and behaviour in this fight create a sense that you are raiding a guarded compound in the middle of a well populated city with close rooftops, innocent civilians, and dutiful soldiers on standby to join the fray. It’s a complex and dangerous situation.

Contrast this with a different encounter from later in the game, where you attack the command position of the Helvetii chieftain Orgetorix during a battle. Here, your team is starting at the bottom of a wooded hill and forced to fight your way up through Orgetorix’s warriors to engage your target. The elevation serves a very different purpose here, and though you don’t start surrounded and the enemy gets no reinforcements, you are still at a disadvantage – most often in Expeditions: Rome, as in life, the tactical advantage must be won, it is not given freely. This too is a complex and sprawling battlefield with many interesting options and even a choice of how to achieve victory, and thanks to clever level design that has kept the narrative context in mind right from the start, it feels very different to play.




But don’t take our word for it. Head on over to Steam and download the Expeditions: Rome public demo. The 7 combat encounters included there should easily be enough to showcase the variety of our gameplay. When you’ve completed the demo, you’ll be well equipped to come and ask us incisive questions or just hang out in our final DevStream of this year, this Wednesday December 22nd on http://twitch.tv/thqnordic at 1:00 PM Eastern / 6:00 PM GMT. Senior Producer Brad Logston and Creative Director Jonas Wæver and Combat Designer Hans Emil Hoppe Rauer will discuss the intricacies of level design and hand-crafting turn-based combat encounters.

Until then, Valete!
 

EvilWolf

Learned
Joined
Jul 20, 2021
Messages
265
The biggest gripe I have about the combat is the fact archers are always 100% to hit if they're within a maximum range with a damage malus as you near the extremes of said range. This leads to the enemy having guaranteed damage on your non-shielded party members every turn, which results in them always being incapacitated in two to three turns because focusing the archers opens you up to being flanked by melee in most engagements.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
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Oct 26, 2012
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New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I am a fan of deterministic combat systems. Expeditions has always been mostly deterministic as far as damage goes excluding ranged attacks. I like the changes to ranged combat in this one so far, you get more consistent attack results and it's less overpowered than in Viking. I don't feel it plays any different to Viking in regards to how I make decisions. If there's archers around, I will always send a melee character into cover at the end of a round if I've got the extra MP and there's cover nearby unless I don't want to cop the AoO from an adjacent melee character, or I'd prefer to spend those points moving closer. The only difference from Viking is that rather than it be a chance to hit, you will get hit. Works both ways as you have that assurance when attacking as well.
 

Togukawa

Savant
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Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
317
When creating him you get to pick one of three ways he'll use to get what he wants in dialogue (charm, logic and authority, basically) and are from then on locked in on that, so in every dialogue where it comes up you see three different options with two greyed out and are then forced to pick your "alignment".

Wow. That just killed all of my interest. Thx for the warning.
 

HoboForEternity

LIBERAL PROPAGANDIST
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
the pathos, logos, ethos doesn't feels like alignment, it just feels like a different speech skill ffs. so far in the demo, for example, a character asks you to take back his stolen journal. there are some "speech" checks to get it for free, I forgot the specifics but for example, if it's charm, and you pick logic, you can't get it for free and you must buy it from him or punch him in the face.

it's too early too say for sure, but it doesn't really affect "morality" in the way mass effect is. it's just one of the options to get a conflict free option. plus you will get another point in there if you're so FOMO.

not every encounter will have the 3 options. i think the goal is to represent basic types of persuasion depending on their personality: like there are some people who are more easily swayed by emotions, or authority, or maybe you can sway them with facts and logic. person A is a logical person, which will be easier if you try to persuade them with logical arguments. the other 2 methods won't work, because that's simply how the person is.

which if course, ideally it should be like deus ex/alpha protocol where figuring out what kind of persuasion works on which people is part of the gameplay, but RPGs has been doing this for decades basically, which admittedly rome streamline it to some degree some RPG veteran are uncomfortable
 

Sensuki

Arcane
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Messages
9,832
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I just asked a question about it on the discord, here is the response

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Bonus:

Jonas discussing removal of character attributes

yKSXox3.png
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
:hmmm:
In old D&D: because you rolled your stats and what you got was what you got.
In nu-D&D: You'd make a fighter with high intelligence because you want to be an eldritch knight.

I remember one of my characters being a fighter that aspired to be a ranger but simply wasn't good enough(rolls were too low.)
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yet more trailer:



As a Roman Legatus, your campaign will lead you through many different regions. Among them, Gaul and Africa. How will you shape their future?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth


Witness the creation of an epic soundtrack with this special look behind the scenes of Expeditions: Rome. Experience the music of Rome, composed by Thomas Farnon on January 20, 2022.
 

jackofshadows

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
5,088
It's awkward how they're trying to smile and pretend that what they're doing is something more than a regular gig. These pr-vids, dude.
 
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