Fallout Fallout 1 is the best RPG of all time that stood the test of time

[DragoFireheart]

So you know what is a mission and its objectives and how it translates to the search for the water chip.

Doesn't mean it should be literally implemented.

People have to shit in real life but I don't see a toilet perk or endurance increasing my resistance to peeing my pants.

EDIT:

Ultimately game design choices like time limits are a preference. You enjoyed it and like it, I dislike it. I feel that cRPGs shouldn't have time limits but the time limits in Fallout 1 are not short/tight enough to detract from it in a significant way. It's still easily one of the best cRPGs.

 

[Mark Richard]

I hate time limits. I hate them so much, that I usually avoid games that have them.

Very much this, I think Pathologic gave me PTSD.

The timer backs up the premise. Battling a plague of unknown origin should be scary, and for that the plague needs to progress independent of your actions rather than being tied to location or character triggers.

 

[Lhynn]

No time limits in rpgs is literally the only thing that allows the player to eventually succeed. Just a thought.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I hate time limits. I hate them so much, that I usually avoid games that have them.

Very much this, I think Pathologic gave me PTSD.

The timer backs up the premise. Battling a plague of unknown origin should be scary, and for that the plague needs to progress independent of your actions rather than being tied to location or character triggers.

See there's a bit of a problem there from the perspective of both gameplay and narrative.

For a time limit to work, it needs to be immediate and it needs to be active. This is why time limits work for, say, clear this platformer stage in X seconds, finish this one-on-one fight in a fighting game in X seconds. Or the clear objective "find the Water Chip in 30 days". These are relevant, immediate, and tangible time limits that contribute to the moment because set the goal to reach and the sense of accomplishment from reaching it. The water chip is easy to find well before the time limit is even close, but it adds to the sense of triumph in the first act of the game.

A time limit that's a distant and abstract concept (like for instance the second time limit in Fallout) is NOT such a time limit. It doesn't feel like it impacts your game directly. What it feels like is an external force taking the game away from you and saying you can't play anymore. IIRC the second time limit and possible alterations to it (the water merchants from Hub) aren't actually even mentioned in Fallout, which also reduces the value of the limit in every respect because it does not set a visible goal which is the only reason to have a time limit. But even if it did, it's far far too long to possess any relevant value for the moment because it is so far away and vague (again, contrast to the 30 days where the day or two of traveling after the rat cave is just right for giving it a sense of immediacy and urgency). This also doesn't quite contribute in any meaningful way to the threat of the super mutants because the super mutants as a threat are very low-key, you barely meet them during the game and barely hear about them. You never for instance see a place that super mutants have conquered and dragged off everyone from. All of these are only post-mortems end scrolls for the game. So you have a threat that is obscure and never seen directly, with a time limit that is too long to give any sense of hurry.

This leaves the second time limit in Fallout an abstract and arbitrary thing that serves no purpose and has no value. The only saving grace it has is that Fallout is a much shorter game than the second time limit.

 

[Mark Richard]

See there's a bit of a problem there from the perspective of both gameplay and narrative.

For a time limit to work, it needs to be immediate and it needs to be active. This is why time limits work for, say, clear this platformer stage in X seconds, finish this one-on-one fight in a fighting game in X seconds. Or the clear objective "find the Water Chip in 30 days". These are relevant, immediate, and tangible time limits that contribute to the moment because set the goal to reach and the sense of accomplishment from reaching it. The water chip is easy to find well before the time limit is even close, but it adds to the sense of triumph in the first act of the game.

A time limit that's a distant and abstract concept (like for instance the second time limit in Fallout) is NOT such a time limit. It doesn't feel like it impacts your game directly. What it feels like is an external force taking the game away from you and saying you can't play anymore. IIRC the second time limit and possible alterations to it (the water merchants from Hub) aren't actually even mentioned in Fallout, which also reduces the value of the limit in every respect because it does not set a visible goal which is the only reason to have a time limit. But even if it did, it's far far too long to possess any relevant value for the moment because it is so far away and vague (again, contrast to the 30 days where the day or two of traveling after the rat cave is just right for giving it a sense of immediacy and urgency). This also doesn't quite contribute in any meaningful way to the threat of the super mutants because the super mutants as a threat are very low-key, you barely meet them during the game and barely hear about them. You never for instance see a place that super mutants have conquered and dragged off everyone from. All of these are only post-mortems end scrolls for the game. So you have a threat that is obscure and never seen directly, with a time limit that is too long to give any sense of hurry.

This leaves the second time limit in Fallout an abstract and arbitrary thing that serves no purpose and has no value. The only saving grace it has is that Fallout is a much shorter game than the second time limit.

I'm not defending Fallout's hidden secondary timer because it's the worst implementation of it in living memory, and inevitably the example that always gets put forward when time limits are on trial. When the mutant incursion triggered I initially assumed my copy of the game was bugged. If I had played Fallout on release before I had access to the Internet, I might've lived with that misconception for years.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well, I probably just misjudged because the plague analogy distinctly reminded me of Fallout's mutant shenanigans.

Still, I don't see having a longterm time limit being useful in many cases, you really need to break it down to much smaller chunks for it to work and be able to present it in a manner where its presence is clear to it accomplishes it's real goal which is to add tension to gameplay. In case of the plague example, I figure it's best to simply narratively establish the urgency of whatever the player is doing rather than trying to use a timer. Or you might end up with some really corny gamist situation. Still, it's a tough topic and it doesn't have a catch-all answer besides "not like Fallout 1's second time limit."

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

This also doesn't quite contribute in any meaningful way to the threat of the super mutants because the super mutants as a threat are very low-key, you barely meet them during the game and barely hear about them. You never for instance see a place that super mutants have conquered and dragged off everyone from. All of these are only post-mortems end scrolls for the game. So you have a threat that is obscure and never seen directly, with a time limit that is too long to give any sense of hurry.

This leaves the second time limit in Fallout an abstract and arbitrary thing that serves no purpose and has no value. The only saving grace it has is that Fallout is a much shorter game than the second time limit.

This is incorrect. After 110 days the Super Mutants will occupy Necropolis and there’s blood all over the place.

The water chip time limit is about building tension and does an excellent job. But the whole point of the second time limit is to punish the player for fucking around instead of finishing the game. I think this makes perfect sense.

If you want a sandbox, time limits are a terrible idea. If you want a role playing game, they do a terrific job of building a sense of immersion. Otherwise it’s too hard to make the player give a fuck about the main quest. The cognitive dissonance of “I need to save the world, but I also should take the time to fetch these herbs to gain some XP” is not a good thing in most RPGs. Fallout’s time limits were an excellent solution to that problem. I also like what Kingdom Come: Deliverance does with time limits for side quests—someone else will do the job if you take too long—even as it’s debatable whether that game is a true RPG.

In the end, this whole genre is about resource management and time is the most precious resource of them all. Any game with a rest mechanic that restores your health should also find a way to punish you for abusing that mechanic. There has to be a cost.

 

[Background Character]

Fallout 1 is the best RPG of all time

I know

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

BEST OF ALL TIME THAT STOOD THE TEST OF TIME
TIMES UP THIS TIME, GAMING INDUSTRY, WE WANT TO PLAY A GAME LIKE THIS AND YOU'RE OUT OF TIME BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO WASTE TIME ANOTHER TIME ON THE DUMBED DOWN GAMES OF MODERN TIMES WHEN WE CAN PLAY TIMELESS CLASSICS FROM TIME GONE BY ANY TIME
I HOPE YOU ENJOYED MY TIMELY POST

 

[Davaris]

Yup. Time limits are counter intuitive to cRPGs. There's a whole world to explore, learn, and fight stuff. Time limits forces you to skip all of that.

Thankfully you can remove the time limit after getting the water chip.

The time limit made me play the game aggressively, instead of wandering around aimlessly trying random things to see what happens.

It's a shame Fallout 2 is often described as "a bigger, better Fallout", when reality says otherwise.

FO1 is like Citizen Cane while FO2 is more Star Wars.

Big boobs look nice.

Its the perkiness not the size that matters. Which is also an analogy for FO1/2.

I honestly think FO2 would have been improved by cutting New Reno altogether.

When something is advertised as better because Its 50% Bigger, I assume marketing people have been interfering in the development process.

In the last interview with Tim, Leon and Fergus, Fergus said the teams were not communicating on F2, whereas on F1 everyone worked together. So F2 couldn't have been improved by cutting one or two areas, what it needed was to be done with the entire group working on one area at a time.

He also said the other mistake they made was listening to players who yelled for more. Always leave your audience wanting more, is an old show biz meme that seems to be entirely forgotten.

BEST OF ALL TIME THAT STOOD THE TEST OF TIME
TIMES UP THIS TIME, GAMING INDUSTRY, WE WANT TO PLAY A GAME LIKE THIS AND YOU'RE OUT OF TIME BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO WASTE TIME ANOTHER TIME ON THE DUMBED DOWN GAMES OF MODERN TIMES WHEN WE CAN PLAY TIMELESS CLASSICS FROM TIME GONE BY ANY TIME
I HOPE YOU ENJOYED MY TIMELY POST

We want to play games like this, but they don't want to make games like it.

Games Industry Mentality: Blow your budget trying to out do the other guys on graphics, then complain the other guys have more to spend than you. lol

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

In the last interview with Tim, Leon and Fergus, Fergus said the teams were not communicating on F2, whereas on F1 everyone worked together. So F2 couldn't have been improved by cutting one or two areas, what it needed was to be done with the entire group working on one area at a time.

So it's no coincidence FO2 feels less "together" than the original. Right hand didn't know what left hand was doing most of the time.

I'm thinking back to all the cut content that the Killap Restoration Patch put back into FO2 and wondering who the fuck was behind some of that, now.

 

[Dzupakazul]

IIRC the second time limit and possible alterations to it (the water merchants from Hub) aren't actually even mentioned in Fallout, which also reduces the value of the limit in every respect because it does not set a visible goal which is the only reason to have a time limit.

Wait, I distinctively remember the Water Merchants mentioning the possibility that if anyone were to track the water shipments, they'd be able to find V13 faster, and that it's a risk you have to take before you employ them. Or is it not an example of what you mean?

 

[laclongquan]

F1 punish player for doing the job right.

What should be done (afterward of that quest) instead is probabbly a quest where water merchant report that someone is tryin to track their caravan and you got the job to clean up the tail and hide the trails.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

F1 punish player for doing the job right.

What should be done (afterward of that quest) instead is probabbly a quest where water merchant report that someone is tryin to track their caravan and you got the job to clean up the tail and hide the trails.

If you go back to them after revealing the location, I’m pretty sure they say something about their caravans being followed.

 

[Pizzashoes]

I can't find the chip these vault dwelling gooks want me to find. 6/10 game to be honest

 

[Commissar Draco]

Fallout 1 was the gem but you really do miss UI/Companions improvements of the second part; not to mention all those play styles you can do thanks to optional five men, mutants + robo dog army you can lead. I only found out you can really stop dead NCR imperialism the second time I played the game for example and there was also wombyn and dumb martial artist playthroughs too. FO1 was tight compact military like mission which did not leave you much choice in execution: You needed to join BoS to get Power Armor + Plasma riffle ASAP cause otherwise you ended up recked by Supermutants and their damn mini-guns. Still I enjoyed both of them but second part has much bigger C&C and replay value in Commissar honest opinion. Never had problem with time limit to be honest or needed to use water merchants.

 

[crakkie]

LIFO > FIFO

But I love them both. I wish I didn't have them both memorized so I could bother playing through one again.

 

[Makabb]

Fallout 1 vs Fallout 2 thread #28,164,732

Without fallout 1 there would be no fallout 2 .... so fallout 1

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I hate time limits. I hate them so much, that I usually avoid games that have them.

Very much this, I think Pathologic gave me PTSD.

The timer backs up the premise. Battling a plague of unknown origin should be scary, and for that the plague needs to progress independent of your actions rather than being tied to location or character triggers.

I completely agree. I also fucking hate timers in games.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I hate time limits. I hate them so much, that I usually avoid games that have them.

Very much this, I think Pathologic gave me PTSD.

The timer backs up the premise. Battling a plague of unknown origin should be scary, and for that the plague needs to progress independent of your actions rather than being tied to location or character triggers.

I completely agree. I also fucking hate timers in games.

Heresy. Timers are one of the few ways to add a layer of strategic depth to a genre that’s mostly about tactics and logistics. Timers are the ultimate choice and consequence mechanic because they make you take opportunity cost into consideration.

Fallout’s timers are extreme, but that’s why they’re so long. I’d love it if every RPG had shorter timers for non-essential quests.

 

[norolim]

I'm pretty sure the nuCodex wouldn't really like Fallout at the time of its release. It had a lot of bugs. The combat was rather easy and boring once you got the hang of it and acquired the right equipment. And the AI was horrible. You could take a bow, I mean, a sniper rifle and pick the enemies off form a safe distance and the retarded AI would just stand there and die. Worst of all, though, you couldn't pick up apples. It didn't even have apples! Fucking popamole shit.

 

[ilitarist]

See, this time limit controversy shows that you need some unpleasant, unpopular, bad things to create an intricate complex composition. People hate time limit but it adds so much more to the game. I never even saw time limit coming to a close but it defined my playthroughs and had given me a special experience.

I'm pretty sure that modern remakes that would implement things that people actually want and things that make games better would have diminished Fallout or other RPGs. Like Fallout writing is not that good. And Fallout 1 doesn't have that much in terms of lore. Remaster or remake would probably not just remove/ease the time limit, but would polish dialogue, turn all those faceless cartoonish characters into something more defined, added walls of texts on holodisks and so on. Also maybe it would balance the game so that you don't have broken builds - but it would probably turn combat not fun as happened with numerous game series killed by gameplay actually becoming more refined.

Also what norolim said, even if he's joking. Fallout is the best RPG as in the most influential, the most promising RPG. It had given birth to numerous new series even if few copy it directly.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Heresy. Timers are one of the few ways to add a layer of strategic depth to a genre that’s mostly about tactics and logistics. Timers are the ultimate choice and consequence mechanic because they make you take opportunity cost into consideration.

Fallout’s timers are extreme, but that’s why they’re so long. I’d love it if every RPG had shorter timers for non-essential quests.

Again I agree, and FO isn't actually an "offender" since you can still sit back and think how you are going to spend the resource. The pathologic kind gives me a sensation, adding something sure, that I can get plenty of outside video games. Running around sideways because I ?think? it ?looks? like I ?might? be moving a couple pixels per second faster and worrying about "being on time" while going fasterfasterpleasejusthurrythefuckupohwowlookatthatovertherenevermindfasterfastergottagofaster just doesn't add anything "enjoyable", to me. I did like the game, just not the fucking strict timer.

I guess I don't really hate timers, just real-time-timers™

 

[DragoFireheart]

I hate time limits. I hate them so much, that I usually avoid games that have them.

Very much this, I think Pathologic gave me PTSD.

The timer backs up the premise. Battling a plague of unknown origin should be scary, and for that the plague needs to progress independent of your actions rather than being tied to location or character triggers.

I completely agree. I also fucking hate timers in games.

Heresy. Timers are one of the few ways to add a layer of strategic depth to a genre that’s mostly about tactics and logistics. Timers are the ultimate choice and consequence mechanic because they make you take opportunity cost into consideration.

Fallout’s timers are extreme, but that’s why they’re so long. I’d love it if every RPG had shorter timers for non-essential quests.

My compromise is:

Have short timers to get the player to not fuck around with the main quest: if you take too long, Game Over and the big bad rapes your asshole. If you want it to be a longer timer, make it something that doesn't result in a Game Over if you take too long but have it instead result in towns being destroyed, critical characters dying, etc, that leads to a shit ending.

This allows people who want to explore can explore but have to deal with the ass ending while people who comitt to the main quest get the best ending.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

My compromise is:

Have short timers to get the player to not fuck around with the main quest: if you take too long, Game Over and the big bad rapes your asshole. If you want it to be a longer timer, make it something that doesn't result in a Game Over if you take too long but have it instead result in towns being destroyed, critical characters dying, etc, that leads to a shit ending.

This allows people who want to explore can explore but have to deal with the ass ending while people who comitt to the main quest get the best ending.

You should give Pathologic a try if you haven't already, pretty much follows that formula to a tee.