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Fallout 2 - It's meant to be good?

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Yes, the only way to deal with the situation is to kill Horrigan, either directly or haviong someone do it for you. I don't really mind, not everyone can be reasoned with (giant ant diplomacy) and during the story you witness at least two situations that show he just isn't interested in negotiations (slaughtering the scientist's family and the intelligent deathclaws), so no pulling a President Eden and having him kill himself just so we get that warm, fuzzy "just like Fallout <3" feeling. Yeah, you can convince the troopers to help you and have the defense systems on your side, but the big guy himself can't be reasoned with. Deal w/it, nrd

VD said:
The main villain is a stereotypical "I kill everyone for the lulz" villain who looks like a giant robot. (the 13 year olds strike again!)

He's basically a supermutant that wears armor. Why is that people wearing power armor and supermutants aren't childish, but the armored supermutant is?
 

RK47

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Vault City is a high-tech settlement in West Nevada, established by the inhabitants of Vault 8 after the Great War. The Vault opened in 2091 after receiving the all-clear signal (origin of which remains unknown, but it's likely that it was the Enclave). The city was built around the Vault, using its fusion generator as a power source and knowledge contained in the GECK to establish the first structures.
The city's population is very strictly regulated, with all pregnancies scheduled and insemination performed by the Vault's autodoc. Interestingly, there seem to be no accidental pregnancies occurring from direct intercourse, the reason behind which is not disclosed.

Source: Fallout Wikia

I fear I am about to make some mistakes in revising Vault City. But do feel free to correct me if I make some mistakes with names and possible faction motivations.
For Junior, this is the first time he steps into a huge, established, community. Klamath, Modoc and the Den even, are very tiny compared to Vault City. Fenced perimeter, auto turrets at every corner, and even automated steel doors. There is a sense that this is a place of great influence.

Vault City Stage 01 – Arrival & Cassidy

If Vic is with Junior, he will inform that he was an ex-Citizen of Vault City and explain how things work. However, he refuses to divulge why he left in the first place.
The outside perimeter area had a few meaningless ‘are you a good guy or a bad guy’ quest in the original F2. I personally disliked those. It lacked substance and meant nothing more than a power-gaming effort to splash cash for EXP. I wish to revise it.
• Get plow for Mr. Smith – Removed. Too straightforward dumb. Buy a plow, get EXP and Desert Eagle – whoa, really?
• Rescue Amanda’s husband – Doesn't really hurt to leave it alone.
• Find Mr. Nixon – Removed – Hey, I found a doll. Let me tear it up in front of a kid or do a good deed and be rewarded. This isn’t My Little Ponies, no faggot shit in my FO2.
• Cassidy’s Bar – Revised

o Instead of just minding his own business and whining like Skyway of how life is shit in VC, Cassidy will be in a jam. Basically, his wife is pregnant and she is sick with radiation poisoning. Here’s what Junior can do:
 Junior must somehow find two packets of Rad-Aways to save his wife and child within a month before she dies.
 If Junior only managed to get her ONE, their child will not make it in the ending narration. Cass in New Vegas is dead, kind of.
 One packet of Rad-Away is sufficient if Junior has successfully roll against a Doctor/Science check

o Successfully saving Cassidy’s wife (ONE or TWO packets didn’t matter) will gain Cassidy’s gratitude, but he will still be in a jam since he’s too financially poor to support his wife. Junior can do the following:
 Pay Cassidy 1,000 caps up front to get him to join up. And top up another 500 caps per month afterwards.
 A successful barter check will reduce it to 500 caps upfront plus EXP.
 Or, he can permanently get Cassidy to follow him forever till his quest is completed by paying 3,000 caps up front and passing a Speech check.
 Not doing any of those will make Cassidy join the Vault City militia and Junior loses the opportunity to recruit him and Cassidy will die protecting Vault City, his memory carried on by his surviving wife and daughter.

o Once Cassidy joins the party, he will want to visit his wife every TWO months for some quality time.
 He will inform Junior every contract renewal that he misses his wife and wants to return on his own. The player can find him back at Vault City and recruit him again, but a Speech check of 50 can delay his visit by another month.
 Upon the third visit to his wife, Cassidy will even be more determined to return alive and promised his wife to quit smoking ‘for their child’. This gives him the perk ‘A Loving Father,’ boosting his physical stats by 1 each. He doesn't need to revisit his wife anymore.

o If Junior doesn’t care at all about Cassidy’s wife, she will die one month after his first visit.
 Cassidy will then have nothing holding him back in Vault City and offers himself up for 2,000 caps upfront and 500 caps per month afterwards.
 A successful Barter check will lower the prince to 1,000 caps up front plus EXP.
 Upon witnessing 100 deaths, he will dedicate a prayer to his wife and gains the Perk, ‘Forever Alone’, increasing his critical chance by 5% and reducing his Charisma to zero. This will also raise his monthly pay by 1,000 caps a month. A barter check will reduce this to 750 caps.

Should Cassidy die in the middle of traveling with Junior, the player will find a blood-stained letter in his pockets, addressed to his wife, Sharon, telling her to name their baby after the most beautiful yet thorniest flower of them all, Rose.
 

DragoFireheart

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sea said:
I played Fallout 2 fairly recently. Unless it's something added by the Restoration Project, the only way to win the game is to fight Frank. Whether you hide in a corner as allies and the turrets do the work for you is a different story, but chances are they'll all bite it and you'll be forced to mop up anyway (at least that was the case for me). There is no outright avoiding the battle at all.

And why is this a bad thing? Do you think it's realistic to avoid any fighting within the context of this game?
 

RK47

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DragoFireheart said:
sea said:
I played Fallout 2 fairly recently. Unless it's something added by the Restoration Project, the only way to win the game is to fight Frank. Whether you hide in a corner as allies and the turrets do the work for you is a different story, but chances are they'll all bite it and you'll be forced to mop up anyway (at least that was the case for me). There is no outright avoiding the battle at all.

And why is this a bad thing? Do you think it's realistic to avoid any fighting within the context of this game?

Hack the door open, rush past him.

Problem?
 

DragoFireheart

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RK47 said:
Hack the door open, rush past him.

Problem?

He fucking blocks the door? He chases you down and snaps you in half? You came here on a ship and he wouldn't have any issues chasing you down. It would be one thing if you got to the Oil Rig ala Vertibird and could do an epic escape which would make evading Frank more believable, but that isn't the case.
 

Menckenstein

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Vault Dweller said:
Menckenstein said:
Vault Dweller said:
Menckenstein said:
Protip from 1998: you don't have to fight Frank Horrigan :smug:
It's been a long time since I've played it, but if I recall correctly, in the best traditions of Doom, you can't escape the rig until Frank is dead. So, no sneaking or talking your way out options, even though you can have a chat with him first. Or even forced to have a chat?

Also, if I recall correctly, there are 3 parties there: Frank, the turrets, and some troops. You can use the president's card to turn the turrets on Frank and you can talk the troops into siding with you, which amounts to increasing the odds. Since you have to be there, I don't think it counts as a non-combat solution.

The turrets shred him before he can touch you.
And your point is? Somehow entering combat and letting your ally (even if temporary) kill someone is not combat?

He still dies without you having to fight him so... yes and no?

I'm not arguing that it could've been done better but it's hardly DXHR in terms of forced boss battle.
 

Vault Dweller

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DragoFireheart said:
sea said:
I played Fallout 2 fairly recently. Unless it's something added by the Restoration Project, the only way to win the game is to fight Frank. Whether you hide in a corner as allies and the turrets do the work for you is a different story, but chances are they'll all bite it and you'll be forced to mop up anyway (at least that was the case for me). There is no outright avoiding the battle at all.

And why is this a bad thing? Do you think it's realistic to avoid any fighting within the context of this game?
Considering that you infiltrate the rig without fighting your way in, that you are able to walk around freely and talk to everyone without being questioned (if I recall correctly), that you can convince the scientist to release the gas into the ventilation system and kill most people, I don't see any reason at all why you have to find the end boss before you escape.
 

RK47

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DragoFireheart said:
RK47 said:
Hack the door open, rush past him.

Problem?

He fucking blocks the door? He chases you down and snaps you in half? You came here on a ship and he wouldn't have any issues chasing you down. It would be one thing if you got to the Oil Rig ala Vertibird and could do an epic escape which would make evading Frank more believable, but that isn't the case.

Let me be honest with you : I have never, EVER finished FO2. The closest I got to the game was that fight with Horrigan and I could not beat him. And I gave up completely. It wasn't worth the trouble. And the whole running around wastelands thing just kinda bored me at that point that I didn't care anymore to start it up and give it another try.

Any argument about that boss fight being 'not a bad thing' is bound to just flick the 'FUCK NO' switch in me, so I might be biased. But that's what Fallout 2 is about: I couldn't care any less about that boss fight. I loaded a youtube clip of the ending slides and just get on with my life.

The fight was neither fun nor interesting. Much like the boxing shit in New Reno, the street fighter parody in San Fran, but guess what? It was optional. This? This piece of HP sponge that blocks any attempt to escape? Fuck no. I endured so much crap with a Super Sledgehammer build but after dying the 6th time, no thanks, Horrigan. I'm done. Out the CD goes and it never goes back in.
 

Vault Dweller

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Menckenstein said:
I'm not arguing that it could've been done better but it's hardly DXHR in terms of forced boss battle.
Just because it's not as bad as DXHR boss battles doesn't mean it's good design.
 
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RK47 said:
:x
F_horrigan.gif

:lol:

Really, you could've just reloaded two or three times until one of the turrets or troopers got a lucky shot. Did you just HHEUHEUHEUHEUHEUHUEHUEHUHEUHE six times at him with the sledgehammer?
 

RK47

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Clockwork Knight said:
RK47 said:

:lol:

Really, you could've just reloaded two or three times until one of the turrets or troopers got a lucky shot.

No. I didn't have enough Speech / Science skill to do that as well. I was young back then, and even finding the correct shit to do in that base was awfully tedious. I recall the electric trap maze room of some sort that frustrates me a bit. All in all, the oil rig is a terrible level to play through and I don't relish a revisit ever. He basically crits and kills me in one hit in about 10 attacks. Leaving me kinda stumped and just gave up totally since my save game outside the rig is wayyyy far back.
 

DragoFireheart

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Vault Dweller said:
Considering that you infiltrate the rig without fighting your way in, that you are able to walk around freely and talk to everyone without being questioned (if I recall correctly), that you can convince the scientist to release the gas into the ventilation system and kill most people, I don't see any reason at all why you have to find the end boss before you escape.

- IIRC, releasing the gas sets off some alarm system. Either that or disabling the reactor sets off an alarm system.


RK47 said:
Let me be honest with you : I have never, EVER finished FO2. The closest I got to the game was that fight with Horrigan and I could not beat him. And I gave up completely. It wasn't worth the trouble. And the whole running around wastelands thing just kinda bored me at that point that I didn't care anymore to start it up and give it another try.

Any argument about that boss fight being 'not a bad thing' is bound to just flick the 'FUCK NO' switch in me, so I might be biased. But that's what Fallout 2 is about: I couldn't care any less about that boss fight. I loaded a youtube clip of the ending slides and just get on with my life.

The fight was neither fun nor interesting. Much like the boxing shit in New Reno, the street fighter parody in San Fran, but guess what? It was optional. This? This piece of HP sponge that blocks any attempt to escape? Fuck no. I endured so much crap with a Super Sledgehammer build but after dying the 6th time, no thanks, Horrigan. I'm done. Out the CD goes and it never goes back in.

- Oh, well yes the design of the forced fight is pretty bad. He's a bit too strong and the alternatives are a bit tricky to figure out the first time. I can understand that (common) complaint about how Frank was implemented.
 

Wyrmlord

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RK47 said:
Clockwork Knight said:
RK47 said:

:lol:

Really, you could've just reloaded two or three times until one of the turrets or troopers got a lucky shot.

No. I didn't have enough Speech / Science skill to do that as well. I was young back then, and even finding the correct shit to do in that base was awfully tedious. I recall the electric trap maze room of some sort that frustrates me a bit. All in all, the oil rig is a terrible level to play through and I don't relish a revisit ever. He basically crits and kills me in one hit in about 10 attacks. Leaving me kinda stumped and just gave up totally since my save game outside the rig is wayyyy far back.
But plenty of old RPGs have boss fights during which you have 100% chance of losing without a good build. I never finished my first playthrough of Betrayal at Krondor for this reason, and I did the game all over again to set Malaka right with the most powerful spells discovered from the most obscure places with the greatest difficulty.
 

Jaesun

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DragoFireheart said:
- Oh, well yes the design of the forced fight is pretty bad. He's a bit too strong and the alternatives are a bit tricky to figure out the first time. I can understand that (common) complaint about how Frank was implemented. It should have had a quest compass, and held my hand, and a detailed journal entry telling me exactly what to do! Even if I don't read any of the holo-logs or computers there FFS!

This is why we have shit games nowadays. Just FYI.
 

Menckenstein

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Vault Dweller said:
Menckenstein said:
I'm not arguing that it could've been done better but it's hardly DXHR in terms of forced boss battle.
Just because it's not as bad as DXHR boss battles doesn't mean it's good design.

Oops I meant to say "could not have been done better", so I agree with you. It's a poor design choice but it wasn't as bad as the whole of San Fransisco.
 

DragoFireheart

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Jaesun said:
DragoFireheart said:
- Oh, well yes the design of the forced fight is pretty bad. He's a bit too strong and the alternatives are a bit tricky to figure out the first time. I can understand that (common) complaint about how Frank was implemented. It should have had a quest compass, and held my hand, and a detailed journal entry telling me exactly what to do! Even if I don't read any of the holo-logs or computers there FFS!

This is why we have shit games nowadays. Just FYI.

The game gives you little warning that you will need the turrets at all to fight Frank or that you'll need to be very powerful to fight him. A tough surprise fight can be good but I simply didn't care for how they implemented Frank in this case. FFS, you don't even see him anywhere in the base or any indication that he's on the Oil Rig. Why wouldn't you see him near the president guarding him? How about seeing him leave the Oil Rig to go do a mission? Yes, the game alluded to him throughout your quest but that is a bit of a stretch that just because you saw him in other parts of the game that you'll not even see him once before blowing up the Oil Rig UNTIL the very last moment. It was too much of a stretch and ruined my suspension of disbelief to a small degree.
 

sea

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Wyrmlord said:
But plenty of old RPGs have boss fights during which you have 100% chance of losing without a good build. I never finished my first playthrough of Betrayal at Krondor for this reason, and I did the game all over again to set Malaka right with the most powerful spells discovered from the most obscure places with the greatest difficulty.
You make that sound like a good thing. It's not. While I think players should have to live with the consequences of their bad build choices, if the rest of the game doesn't adequately prepare you for the final boss, either by misleading you as far as what tactics are applicable or simply making that final boss exceptionally difficult, that's bad design through and through. There should always be options, alternatives, and ways for players who don't have a 100% ideal build to still get through the game, whether that's in combat or outside of it.
 

Skittles

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Wait, the GECK had some thematic justification. It was just a plot device, no pun intended, but the theme of the game was the construction of society. That was the real consistency between the crazy, often extraneous towns and locales. They were showcasing the diversity of communities that arose in the wasteland and the problems plaguing them. Sure, the GECK itself was an awkward way of setting the theme, but, with respect to the propositions here, an opening that had you seeking revenge for your village/seeking to free your villagers would have turned the story, such as it is, into a simple revenge quest with the wasteland as nothing but another generic backdrop.

That's what made FO3 half-baked, too. They got the reconstruction theme when they planned the macguffin/major plot arc, but they completely abandoned it when constructing the world. A revision of the opening of FO2 along the lines proposed would be the inverse--a shitty, generic plot arc with inexplicably interesting (or childish, according the the tastes of the player) locations.

As it is, I care about all the little towns and people in Fallout because I desperately want a game that allows you to influence the development of communities and people in a way slightly more organic than a city builder or god game. RPGs make the most sense for accomplishing that. And Fallout 2 did one of the best jobs providing that illusion for me of any game I've played.




Besides, whiners, we'd be complaining that it was on rails and grimdark if it were all steely desperation and we could only visit the hubs that the designers deemed important for the plot arc that they wanted the players to experience.
 

Stinger

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I agree to an extent with Skittles though Fallout 2's cities were still too out there and inconsistent to really convey that theme well. Fallout New Vegas did a much better job with that by making the towns and factions interesting and really well thought out. Plus places like Vault 11 were pretty damn good at conveying how messed up PreWar America was, gave me a similar feeling to those moments in the Glow even though Vault 11 wasn't anywhere near as dangerous.

As for Horrigan, I found the turrets did a good job ripping him to pieces, he took down maybe two of them before he died. A diplomacy thing would've been nice. Not necessarily to Horrigan but maybe speaking to that scientist and convincing him to release the toxins or whatever (as long as you had done some other quests to understand the Enclave's motives and figured out the flaws in their reasoning- a simple speech check would be a bit imba) and had those toxins kill Horrigan as well, would've been a better way to reward the diplomats without messing with Horrigan's character.
 

Sceptic

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Vault Dweller said:
Menckenstein said:
The turrets shred him before he can touch you.
And your point is? Somehow entering combat and letting your ally (even if temporary) kill someone is not combat?
This line of thought disturbingly reminds me of a certain Andhaira thread.
 

Wyrmlord

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sea said:
Wyrmlord said:
But plenty of old RPGs have boss fights during which you have 100% chance of losing without a good build. I never finished my first playthrough of Betrayal at Krondor for this reason, and I did the game all over again to set Malaka right with the most powerful spells discovered from the most obscure places with the greatest difficulty.
You make that sound like a good thing. It's not. While I think players should have to live with the consequences of their bad build choices, if the rest of the game doesn't adequately prepare you for the final boss, either by misleading you as far as what tactics are applicable or simply making that final boss exceptionally difficult, that's bad design through and through. There should always be options, alternatives, and ways for players who don't have a 100% ideal build to still get through the game, whether that's in combat or outside of it.
Actually, there were notes and hints dropped here and there about the final boss' power in BaK, including an explanation that the accompanying creatures with him can only be killed through special spells, I think.

Anyway, anybody who did enough exploring in Fallout 2 knows that -

a) Frank Horrigan killed a Deathclaw with a single punch
b) Frank Horrigan fully absorbed the Brotherhood's Matt firing a gauss rifle shot at him and killed him with a single punch

So there was already a suggestion that early - be ready for Frank Horrigan. Still, he was a very awful villain, because he did not feature prominently in the game at all, and was more of a humourous side character at best.
 

Roguey

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I thought the biggest problem with Horrigan is that he's not even on the oil rig until you trip over the script that spawns him in that location. You should be able to incapacitate him in a nonviolent (or violent) manner before you set off the timer. They sacrificed freedom of choice for their big epic conclusion and that's not Fallout (eg you could blow up the Cathedral without seeing or talking to the Master at all; likewise the military base and the Lieutenant).
 
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Tbh I'm not really sure about the "that's not Fallout" argument when at the time you just had one previous game in the series. Characters focused on talking and smarts could still put their talents to use by getting a lot of help against Horrigan, which I consider an adequate implementation of, er, "Falloutism", since even though a fight has to happen, you're not really forced to fight him on on one (with a little luck, you don't have to fight at all - a critical hit from a turret could nab half his health, according to Per's guide). To "un-epicly" blow up the cathedral you needed these skills too, it wasn't something a random joe unskilled character is able to do.
 

Diablo

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Hello!

I have to say that so far Fallout 2 really pisses me off to no end.

First i used the explosives to kill some bugs... GAME OVER. That was soooo lame.

Then i got to Cameron with 10hp left... GAME OVER again.

And now i finally finish the stupid temple but for some reason i keep dying. I stand there at the exit and i just drop dead.

I have exactly 1 health point but i am NOT poisoned. I was poisoned in the temple but i drank the potion and got cured. So why do i keep dying? I reeeeally hope this is not a bug... I have the unofficial patch which is supposed to be 100% bug free.

Now i guess its not a problem to reload and do some stuff again but damnit this is bullshit. Especially since i came to F2 from Arcanum(havent finished it yet just taking a break) ARCANUM where no matter how stuck and how dire the situation was i always had a way out that never involved reaching for the Load button. Unless i got killed. But i always accepted the consequences of my deeds and marched on.

And now in F2 the consequence of using the explosives was game over and the consequence of having low health was game over and the consequenece of finishing the temple of trials is fuck you GAME OVER.

I know it gets better later but i have to say that as far as game beginnings go this is really shit.
 

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