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Incline Fallout 2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod Discussion

Sevenfm

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Nov 25, 2013
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Jim, balancing firearms and ammo types is really needed in fallout. I always was disappointed with Assault rifle and FN-Fal in Fallout2 being weak and useless and .223 and 2mm pistol being uber-powered. Your thoughts on this subject seem reasonable, though i don't have much experience with firearms except from Fallout and Jagged Alliance series :)
 

DraQ

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Whoa. I have lots to catch up with.
Old Min Str Values:

Laser Rifle: 6
Shotgun: 4
H&K G11: 5
Assault Rifle: 5
10MM SMG: 5
10MM Pistol: 3
Sledgehammer: 6
Spear: 4
Minigun: 7
Flamer: 6
Sniper Rifle: 5
Turbo Plasma Rifle: 6
Crowbar: 5
223 pistol: 5

New Min Str Values (Two-handed, One-handed):

Laser Rifle: 5, 17
Shotgun: 2, 8
H&K G11: 4, 10
Assault Rifle: 4, 13
10MM SMG: 2, 6
10MM Pistol: 1, 3
Sledgehammer: 5, 16
Spear: 3, 6
Minigun: 10, 34
Flamer: 7, 25
Sniper Rifle: 4, 13
Turbo Plasma Rifle: 6, 19
Crowbar: 2, 6
223 Pistol: 3, 7
First thing first, I think lasers should have rather pitiful STR requirements. They have no recoil, so the only limiting factor is if you can actually lift and aim the gun.

Sledge isn't terribly practical weapon for a normal person because melee weapon needs to not just be swung, but swung fast enough to not be easily countered or avoided, so I'm thinking min 7.

Miniguns should indeed be obscene because of the recoil.

I think I'll replace the duplicate caliber with the .50 cal from FOT, simply because that should be the round for the Bozar when it becomes a sniper rifle like it's supposed to be (think it was supposed to represent the Barrett).
Cool, but then no burst mode.

Just single fire for massive damage and DR/DT mods, at extreme range and for increased AP cost.
Think sniper rifle for shooting PA people and sniping deathclaws.

It would be awesome if there was a way to add shooting through walls and cover in FO - .50 BMG would definitely call for it.

Short bursts could be used with AR and similar weapons instead. Hand weapons in general are better suited for short bursts, while support weapons like all sorts of machineguns and miniguns can be reasonably fired in full auto.

Another problem I ran into was the 10mm, which I'm pretty sure based on the description is supposed to represent the .40 S&W.
Either that or 10mm auto.

The problem is that FO2 also added the .45 Cal, which is really similar to the .40 in the metrics used so far (recoil and power, though the .40 is a bit more powerful); where there is a difference is in that the .45 is slower and heavier, which translates in better stopping power. So what I want to do is incorporate stopping power in some way: high stopping power translates in a higher knockdown/knockout chance. Light and fast rounds (5.56, the caseless rounds, 2mm EC) have almost no stopping power, while shotguns, magnums and 14mm rounds knock you over more often (think JHP will also produce a bigger chance). Feature creep ahoy!
Yay, though stopping power should probably mostly translate to damage and damage range (high stopping power - high damage with narrow range).


Anyway, back to recoil. The problem with incorporating this in Min ST, is that it requires two different mechanics. After all, if you're physically capable of properly stabilizing a firearm, you can fire off an accurate round regardless of the subsequent recoil (as far as I can tell the only effect recoil has on single shot accuracy is psychological: you anticipate the recoil and jerk the trigger, which shouldn't be a part of the game mechanics); also, weight has opposite effects: heavier guns reduce recoil, while they're harder to keep stable. So there's two types of min ST now: a min ST for stabilizing, which affects THC, and a min ST for recoil, which causes an extra AP for shooting (to stabilize after the recoil) if exceeded. Recoil also affects the progressive drop off in burst accuracy I mentioned previously. So the result will be that the FNFAL becomes significantly more powerful than the Assault Rifle, but that it will be hard to keep on target in full auto (the exact reason why the US military went from 7.62 to 5.56 in the first place); similarly, the M60 will be more powerful than the Minigun, but the minigun will be able to keep more rounds on target (in fact, because it's so heavy and its rounds are so light, the Minigun has the lowest recoil in the game).
I'd make minigun fire truly massive bursts (for obscene summed recoil).

RL minigun fires about 100 rounds per second so I'm thinking of making it a situational "can I afford to waste most of my ammo in one turn to make everything in my entire firing cone Swiss cheese?" gun and ultimate numerical advantage remover (lure out entire bunch of lightly armoured scum, hide behind something to rumage through your luggage, take out minigun, and brrrrapp them all in one turn, mourn the ammo spent).

Another thing:
Wikipedia said:
Frag-12 shotgun rounds are a series of special purpose shotgun grenades, including high explosive blast, fragmentation, and HEAP grenades intended to be fired from any 12-ga shotgun. They are distinguished from regular shotgun rounds by a green hull. It has been proposed as an armament for modern UAVs and is currently being tested for military deployment.[18]

Grenade rounds use exploding projectiles to increase long range lethality. These are currently experimental, but the British FRAG-12, which comes in both armor penetrating and fragmentary forms, is under consideration by military forces[19]
I'd love to see those.
In general shotguns should be distinguished by being sort of short to mid range, rugged JOAT weapons - falling short of pretty much everything else in terms of situational use, but being economical and firing stunning variety of ammo.

Finally, I did bring it up some time in the past, but it would be interesting to increase inventory access cost to full turn worth of AP, making firing relatively cheap (from 1 to, say, 4AP depending on weapon for single fire), but reloading lengthy and AP consuming.

I think it would both be more realistic and improve combat dynamics by making you think more about when to shoot.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
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Messages
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Minigun with obscene rate of fire or finally apropriate FN-FAL sound great.

People can overcome the ammo consumption by dropping most of their ammo on the ground or giving to a companion, but that's at the cost of flexibility.

IMO shotgun should be THE weapon to knock people down or send them flying. Not as much as vanilla super-sledge though. :D
 
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Messages
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Miniguns should indeed be obscene because of the recoil.

If I understand the system for calculating Recoil Energy, then Miniguns should have minimal recoil due to their weight: most of the min ST reqs should come from how cumbersome they are.

Cool, but then no burst mode.

Of course, though I'm considering adding the M2 Browning from FOT, which would need even more insane ST reqs... might be a bit silly to add a gun you can only use slightly effectively with massively superhuman ST (14; which'd probably still be stretching it).

Another problem I ran into was the 10mm, which I'm pretty sure based on the description is supposed to represent the .40 S&W.
Either that or 10mm auto.

Don't think so; description talks about all the federal agencies using it, which jibes with .40.

The problem is that FO2 also added the .45 Cal, which is really similar to the .40 in the metrics used so far (recoil and power, though the .40 is a bit more powerful); where there is a difference is in that the .45 is slower and heavier, which translates in better stopping power. So what I want to do is incorporate stopping power in some way: high stopping power translates in a higher knockdown/knockout chance. Light and fast rounds (5.56, the caseless rounds, 2mm EC) have almost no stopping power, while shotguns, magnums and 14mm rounds knock you over more often (think JHP will also produce a bigger chance). Feature creep ahoy!
Yay, though stopping power should probably mostly translate to damage and damage range (high stopping power - high damage with narrow range).

Still not sure about that. Problem I have is that the method most people use for calculating stopping power is the TKO method, which favors bigger, slower rounds; this has weird effects like the 5.56 having a TKO of 6, and the much weaker 9mm round having one of 7. On the other hand, the method I like better, namely Muzzle Energy favor lighter rounds too much (e.g. the 5.56 gets 1330 vs. the .44 magnum's 970). I might just combine them arbitrarily to reach the damage output (with ammo type doing the rest).

edit: or else I'll just arbitrarily rank the calibers.

Wikipedia said:
Frag-12 shotgun rounds are a series of special purpose shotgun grenades, including high explosive blast, fragmentation, and HEAP grenades intended to be fired from any 12-ga shotgun. They are distinguished from regular shotgun rounds by a green hull. It has been proposed as an armament for modern UAVs and is currently being tested for military deployment.[18]

Grenade rounds use exploding projectiles to increase long range lethality. These are currently experimental, but the British FRAG-12, which comes in both armor penetrating and fragmentary forms, is under consideration by military forces[19]
I'd love to see those.

I might be able to do something like that, but I'd have to do the calcs for ricochets off walls myself because they're in the black box still and only work for grenades.

Finally, I did bring it up some time in the past, but it would be interesting to increase inventory access cost to full turn worth of AP, making firing relatively cheap (from 1 to, say, 4AP depending on weapon for single fire), but reloading lengthy and AP consuming.

I think it would both be more realistic and improve combat dynamics by making you think more about when to shoot.

Can't change the inventory AP cost unfortunately. What you mention would be one of the things I'd like to experiment with.[/quote]
 
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DraQ

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If I understand the system for calculating Recoil Energy, then Miniguns should have minimal recoil due to their weight: most of the min ST reqs should come from how cumbersome they are.
Yeah, but put a 100 round burst there.
Minigun is something Arnie couldn't fire standing - firing blanks.

I might be able to do something like that, but I'd have to do the calcs for ricochets off walls myself because they're in the black box still and only work for grenades.
Maybe make them impact fused? Sort of weak, invisible rockets with shit AP.
 
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If I understand the system for calculating Recoil Energy, then Miniguns should have minimal recoil due to their weight: most of the min ST reqs should come from how cumbersome they are.
Yeah, but put a 100 round burst there.
Minigun is something Arnie couldn't fire standing - firing blanks.

Right, yeah.

Could you by the way explain more fully what you were thinking about stopping power? You were saying something about narrow range, what's this based on? Why would light, fast ammo like 5.56 have a wider damage range?
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
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Messages
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I think it meant that heavier ammo would have maybe even less max damage, but much higher minimum.

Edit: Because stopping power isn't necessarily "stopping the movement of the target", but neutralizing it more reliably.
 
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I think it meant that heavier ammo would have maybe even less max damage, but much higher minimum.

Edit: Because stopping power isn't necessarily "stopping the movement of the target", but neutralizing it more reliably.

Okay, so if I'm getting the point, it's that a large, heavy bullet does a consistent amount of damage simply by virtue of the target being hit with a relatively sizeable metal object at some speed.

A fast, light projectile, on the other hand, either does a lot of damage because it hits bone and fragments, or pierces a vital organ, or does close to nothing because it doesn't deform and simply passes through the body.

edit: that'd actually make for an interesting formula for damage ranges: TKO as min damage plus muzzle energy/100 as max damage...
 

Kaucukovnik

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This would also make crit builds better with lighter ammo types, while fast shooters would rather choose heavy bullets.

Edit: Well, how are crits calculated anyway? They do max the potential damage, right?
 
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This would also make crit builds better with lighter ammo types, while fast shooters would rather choose heavy bullets.

Edit: Well, how are crits calculated anyway? They do max the potential damage, right?

Well, in vanilla crit damage was just a multiplier, and I hadn't really thought of an alternative (other than determining things like knockouts separately), but max potential damage sounds better.

In fact, what I'm now thinking is making it more flexible, and simply have the luck-based crit chance roll determine the likelihood of hitting which part of the damage range. So, you'd have a bell curve with the middle of the range being most likely at an avarage crit chance, the upper range most likely at high crit chance, etc.
 
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Okay, I've been trying out this formula: lower range=(TKO*0.75); upper range= (TKO*0.75)+(muzzle velocity/200). I decided against going with muzzle energy for the upper range because bullet weight is already pretty much overrepresented in the TKO formula.

.44 magnum: (20*0.75)+(1350/20) = 15-22
5.56: (6*0.75)+(3300/20) = 5-23
7.62: (20*0.75)+(2580/20) = 15-28
9mm: (7*0.75)+(1250/20) = 5-11
.45 cal: (12*0.75)+(830/20) = 9-13
.40 S&W: (10*0.75)+(1080/20) = 8-13
.50 BMG: (147*0.75)+(3050/20) = 110-125

I'm liking these results (except the .50 cal round of course, but that one's optional anyway and could be replaced with something else). Of course these are only avaraged out data, so the different muzzle velocities of the different guns will change the damage ranges.

As to the new crit system, I'd have to figure out what to do with the different body parts. I could either go with higher min, max or entire damage ranges decided per bodypart, or I could essentially do the same thing as is done now, and simply have different bodyparts give higher "crit chances" and thus higher chances of getting high range damages.
 
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Kaucukovnik

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The .50 came out really huge. On the other hand, the rifles aren't called anti-material for no reason. :)
If there was a reliable way to limit available ammo (without resorting to finite amount), even such monstrosity would be pretty cool. Especially if it could be made impractical over shorter distances.
Would it be possible to force the shooter to be stationary the entire turn before the shot? Or something similar to limit rate of fire in extreme ways.
 
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The .50 came out really huge. On the other hand, the rifles aren't called anti-material for no reason. :)
If there was a reliable way to limit available ammo (without resorting to finite amount), even such monstrosity would be pretty cool. Especially if it could be made impractical over shorter distances.
Would it be possible to force the shooter to be stationary the entire turn before the shot? Or something similar to limit rate of fire in extreme ways.

Yeah, I considered that too, but even if that would work (not sure how the AI would handle it), the problem is that movement with ranged weapons is practically irrelevant in FO; you'd just position yourself somewhere and pick off your enemies without ever minding not being able to move (only exception would be that you couldn't use the peek around the corner exploit). I might just go with an intermediary round between 7.62 and .50 cal like the .338 Lapua Magnum (that'd be 27-42).

One problem I should have seen coming with the new damage ranges is that they don't play very nice with armor; a 5-23 range with 5.56 makes sense with unarmored, but why would 5 DT reduce the lower range to 0? The reason it was 5 in the first place was because it simply passed through a non-vital part of the body and probably exited on the other side; if anything some resistance should cause such a round to do more damage not less.

One thing I could do would be having DT reduce just the upper limit of damage (so with 5 DT the range would be 5-18), which makes some sense I guess: all the excess damage would come from the force of the impact causing the round to fracture and deform, the more the armor absorbs, the less chance of break away damages. The problem is that you would (a) make wide range ammo more armor piercing than narrow range ones, (b) make high DT values flatten out all ranges uniformily. So that wouldn't be a good idea

Another approach would be something I talked about a long time ago, namely to separate DT from damage entirely: if the DT is lower than the upper range of a firearm (lets say divided by 3), then it gets ignored. So 5.56 would have an upper range/3 of 8, which'd mean that (ignoring weapon type and chance of bypassing) any DT over 7 stops the round. Any lower DT gets ignored (so it's a real threshold now) and only DR affects damage. I've always liked this idea because like plenty of people have pointed out the DT+DR combo is pretty damn brutal and could use some nerfing.

What do you guys think? DraQ?
 
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Some more results with the formula:

Light-ish (40gr) 2mm EC round at 4* the velocity of 5.56mm: 4-64
Heavy (80gr) 2mm EC round at 3* the velocity of 5.56mm: 7-57
Very heavy (120gr; bit more than 9mm round) 2mm EC round at 2.5* the velocity of 5.56mm: 8-48

"14"mm (actually .480 Ruger): (30*0.75)+(1350/20)=22-29
4.92mm caseless=(4*0.75)+(3453/200)=3-23

man, those light rounds do get really wide ranges... might need to tweek it a bit further.

edit: I'll just calculate a version of TKO myself that has less radically divergent values.
 
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Okay, after some retooling (kept TKO as it was, only nerfed it by a degree of 1 every 10th) I have come up with a list that looks pretty good:

.44 magnum: (14.95)+(1350/200) = 15-22
5.56: (5.78)+(3300/200) = 6-22
7.62: (14.8)+(2580/200) = 15-28
9mm: (7.3)+(1250/200) = 7-14
.45 cal: (11.15)+(830/200) = 11-15
.40 S&W: (10.2)+(1080/200) = 10-16
.50 BMG: (50)+(3050/200) = 50-65
.480 Ruger: (19.9)+(1350/200)=20-27
.338 Lapua Magnum: (21.8)+(2950/200)=22-37
3mm EC, 10000fps, 60 grains: (10.14)+(10000/200)=10-60
4.92mm caseless=(4.99)+(3453/200)=5-22
.500 S&W=(24.3)+(1200/200)=24-30
12 ga., 2000fps, 300 grains, 0.570 cal=(26.3)+(2000/200)=26-36

.480 and .500 are the possible candidates for the "14mm", .338 and .50 BMG for the Bozar round. I've made the gauss round a 3mm to bring up the TKO without making the round ridiculously heavy.

One "problem" is the 12 ga.: it probably makes sense that it's this high, but it's hard to tell exactly how high it should be: I can't figure out whether calibers vary or I'm just an idiot and gauge can easily be translated to a caliber. Also, the speed I'm using is muzzle velocity, while slugs decrease in speed more rapidly than any other round.
 

Kaucukovnik

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I suggest using TKO as a rule of thumb, not a law. Don't take Fallout's weaponry too scientifically.

And gauss guns could be largely incomparable to gunpowder ones.
 
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I suggest using TKO as a rule of thumb, not a law. Don't take Fallout's weaponry too scientifically.

I'm not trying to take it scientifically, just systematically (it's impossible to accurately quantify something like projectile wounding anyway, let alone with a huge abstraction like hit points). TKO is nice because it's the formula that most privileges heavy rounds, so it gives me the most extreme variation in lower damage ranges, which I like from a gameplay standpoint for the reason you mentioned: wide ranges will be interesting for critting builds, narrow ranges for brute force characters. It's just that these variations become too extreme as the values rise, so I had to nerf them a bit as they go up.

It's mainly better than having someone who has no clue about firearms (me, the FO2 devs) arbitrarily assigning damage values.

And gauss guns could be largely incomparable to gunpowder ones.

Not sure about that. From what I understand, the basic principle of ballistics are still the same, except that switching the propulsion from gunpowder to electromagneticthingamadjigs allows for far larger speeds, only with lighter (and smaller) rounds to allow for such speeds. So the basic issue facing the 5.56 should apply in even greater measure: hit someone in an extremety and it just leaves a relatively harmless pinhole as it travels straight through, expending the vast majority of its massive energy on what lies behind the opponent; on the other hand the potential for damage is much higher as well if it expends much of its massive energy on the opponent's squishy bits. But you or DraQ could correct me.

edit: I've made a 14mm round I'm happy with; it's based on this beauty, only 14mm instead of 12.7mm, a bit heavier and a bit slower.

14mm=(19)+(1000/200)=19-24

edit2: as for the extra damage potential bodyparts (head, eyes and groin), I think I'll have them raise the upper damage range of weapons (most for the eyes), so that they're most attractive for a crit build (arms and legs too of course, but mainly because crit builds have bigger chances of disarming and knocking down).

edit3: found a nice 4mm gauss round in the traveller rpg, made it considerably heavier and slower (still more than twice as fast as any normal round), and came up with this:

4mm EC=(14.14)+(8000/200)=14-54

Also, unlike what I just said, knockdowns and disarms will mostly result from TKO, so the lower damage range, while crit builds will go for the arms and legs to cripple.

edit4: fuck it, I'll just switch .40 S&W for 10mm auto; that way there's a nice increase in pistol round strength from 9mm to .45 cal to 10mm to .44 mag.

10mm Auto=(11.6)+(1400/200)=12-19

edit5: Like The Brazilian Slaughter pointed out to me, the .50 cal is still pretty damn overpowered, so I think I'm gonna go with the .338 Lapua Magnum for the Bozar after all; this makes it 22-37, which also allows me to put it into the .223 pistol (.338 pistol) and thereby keep it stronger than the 14mm pistol.
 
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I just made a summary of the new changes for NMA and I might as well post it here too:

1: Crit damage multipliers are out; instead, what damage you do is now governed by a bell curve which shifts based on your crit chance. What this means is that, suppose a weapon does 0-60 damage, you're very likely to do around 30 damage and very unlikely to do close to 0 or 60 damage (see here for a graph of the example). If you have a high crit chance, then this curve moves to the right, so you'd get, e.g. around 35 damage the most on avarage. I like this system because it makes crit builds more interesting: you become on the lookout for weapons with wide damage ranges (like knives and rifles with light ammo, but more on that in a bit). It also makes balancing easier because you always know the weapon's max damage and don't get the insanely divergent outcomes you'd have with a *6 crit.

2: To make this new crit system interesting, I had to have a non-arbitrary way of determining width of damage range. For melee weapons, this is easy to imagine: a sledge is all about brute impact, so an attack with a certain amount of force will generally do the same amount of damage. Knives do their damage based on what they puncture precisely, so vary more widely. With firearms more or less the same principle applies: heavy, big rounds create big wounds based on their force (and, especially when JPH, their expansion), while light, small rounds either go through the target relatively harmlessly or hit bone and fragment, pierce a vital organ, or "yaw" into place inside the body. Based on this I've made a formula for the damage range I've become pretty happy with: the lower range is determined by the Taylor KO Factor which determines a round's "stopping power" and thus privileges heavy, big rounds. The upper range then gets stretched up based on a round's velocity (so the Gauss round, which is by far the fastest and smallest round - even as I made it twice as big into a 4mm round - has the widest range, ideal for crit builds). Here's the resulting changes to the calibers; because different weapons fire rounds at different speeds, this will also effect the resulting damage, but not by much):

.44 magnum: (14.95)+(1350/200) = 15-22
9mm: (7.3)+(1250/200) = 7-14
.45 cal: (11.15)+(830/200) = 11-15
4.7mm caseless=(4.08)+(3030/200)= 4-19
12 ga., 1500fps, 300 grains, 0.570 cal=(22.1)+(1500/200) = 22-28
12 ga. (alternative), 800fps, 400 grains, 0.65 cal=(19.9)+(800/200) = 20-24
4mm EC=(14.14)+(8000/200) = 14-54
10mm Auto=(11.6)+(1400/200) = 12-19
5.56: (5.78)+(3300/200) = 6-22 (all original 5mm weapons use this + the LSW)
7.62: (14.8)+(2580/200) = 15-28 (all original 7.62mm weapons use this + the Hunting Rifle and the Sniper Rifle)
14mm=(19)+(1000/200) = 19-24 (I've based this round on this beaty only upped from 12.7mm to 14mm and a bit heavier and slower)
.338 Lapua Magnum: (21.8)+(2950/200) = 22-37 (this round is used by the Bozar, which is now a big gun sniper rifle like it was supposed to be, and the .223 Pistol, which is now the .338 Pistol)

3: I've decided to decouple DT from damage. I already discussed this with Glovz a while ago, and decided to do it because (a) the DT+DR combo is just too brutal and (b) I want a weapon's damage range to represent wounding potential, not simply kinetic force or whatever (if a bullet can do 4 damage because it's tiny and passes through the opponent without expending much of its energy, then it makes no sense for 4 DT to reduce it to 0: it should still wound the opponent more or less the same way). So now DT is really just a threshold: if an armor's DT is lower than a value based on a weapon's upper damage range, then it gets ignored; else, it reduces damage (and any possible effects) to 0. So if your weapon's damage is higher than the threshold, it just gets reduced based on the DR (so, e.g. where a 20 damage round against 4 DT and 40% DR armor would originally do (20-4-4=)12 damage, now it does (20-5=)15 damage).

4: Various other changes to accomodate this new system are that (1) like I said, the upper damage range determines penetration along with ammo type (small, fast and heavy is best for penetration), (2) the lower range, being stopping power, determines chance of knockdowns and knockouts along with crit chance, (3) crit damage increasing bodyparts (head, eyes and groin) now simply stretch up the upper range as they increase potential damage - so, again, good for crit builds.
 
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dunno lah

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So if your weapon's damage is higher than the threshold, it just gets reduced based on the DR (so, e.g. where a 20 damage round against 4 DT and 40% DR armor would originally do (20-4-4=)12 damage, now it does (20-5=)15 damage).

:?
 

Kaucukovnik

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Gauss weapons - the same way you can't simulate Titanic sinking in a bathtub, bullets at extreme speeds could act different than just regular firearm stats multiplied. Probably not, but I would deem this enough of reasoning to ignore the TKO formula for them and set arbitrary numbers that work best within the game.

If I understand the new armor behavior right, it means that a leather jacket would affect how a .38 hits you, but not so much with an assault rifle. Which sounds right.
 
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So if your weapon's damage is higher than the threshold, it just gets reduced based on the DR (so, e.g. where a 20 damage round against 4 DT and 40% DR armor would originally do (20-4-4=)12 damage, now it does (20-5=)15 damage).

:?

What's your problem with that; the principle or the outcome? If it's the outcome then keep in mind that (a) armor DR values can always be raised , and (b) damage will be a bit more avaraged out in practice in my system (so instead of going from 5-78 for firearms, excluding rockets, it'd be 7-54).

Gauss weapons - the same way you can't simulate Titanic sinking in a bathtub, bullets at extreme speeds could act different than just regular firearm stats multiplied. Probably not, but I would deem this enough of reasoning to ignore the TKO formula for them and set arbitrary numbers that work best within the game.

Fair enough.

If I understand the new armor behavior right, it means that a leather jacket would affect how a .38 hits you, but not so much with an assault rifle. Which sounds right.

Not really; it'd affect both in the same way, at least in their current incarnation (LJ's have 0 DT, and 20% DR so both rounds would have 20% of their damage reduced). I admit that this feels off (a leather jacket shouldn't reduce significantly more force from a .50 cal round than a bb pellet), which was a problem that already existed in the original system. One way to address it would be to give each weapon inherent DR reduction based on its upper range (i.e. its penetrating power): very roughly, this'd mean that a regular 9mm round would reduce the LJ's DR by 11% to 18, and a "regular" (in practice it'd be more because gauss rounds count as extra armor piercing) gauss round by 54% to 11.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
I'd leave it as it is then. Needlessly big changes that may bite you later with some other feature.
Maybe something better comes up along the way.
 
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
3,144
I'd leave it as it is then. Needlessly big changes that may bite you later with some other feature.
Maybe something better comes up along the way.

You do know that that means everything in the summary I just posted goes out the window and that the basic problem still exists, right? Because varying damage ranges collapse unless you separate armor piercing from (absolute) damage reduction some way, and I really like that concept when it comes to making crit builds more interesting.
 

dunno lah

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
1,388
Location
Boleh!land
Call me a dumbfuck if I'm wrong, but if your DT acts merely as a threshold and doesn't negate flat damage, then shouldn't the first damage calculation shown in your post be the correct/new value?
 

Applypoison

Numantian Games
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
120
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Huh nice work. I played Fallout 2 to death, thought I was done for all eternity until I came across the Restoration project. It was satisfying to play but after that, I was truly and really done.

Can't believe people are still tweaking mechanics and modding after all those years, and somehow find ways to keep things fresh. I'm gonna have to tryout your stuff, hopefully it works with Restoration and might just rekindle the flame one last time.
 

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