Incline Fallout 2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod Discussion

[DraQ]

Whether you choose to braaaap 200 rounds or 20 with your minigun takes about the same time, especially when you have such a hefty abstraction as 1-10 AP.

That's true for short bursts, but the longer your burst is, the more time actual shooting takes.
With big enough ammo supply you should be capable of spending entire turn just grinding through it (and how long is FO turn anyway?).

It's for this reason that I don't really like the current AG=AP system

Another reason why good TB ranged combat system should have aiming as separate action from shooting.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Whether you choose to braaaap 200 rounds or 20 with your minigun takes about the same time, especially when you have such a hefty abstraction as 1-10 AP.

That's true for short bursts, but the longer your burst is, the more time actual shooting takes.
With big enough ammo supply you should be capable of spending entire turn just grinding through it (and how long is FO turn anyway?).

You're probably right. Turn is 5 AP + AG/2, but I'm thinking of a way to double everything up.

 

[DraQ]

Whether you choose to braaaap 200 rounds or 20 with your minigun takes about the same time, especially when you have such a hefty abstraction as 1-10 AP.

That's true for short bursts, but the longer your burst is, the more time actual shooting takes.
With big enough ammo supply you should be capable of spending entire turn just grinding through it (and how long is FO turn anyway?).

You're probably right. Turn is 5 AP + AG/2, but I'm thinking of a way to double everything up.

But how long is it in seconds?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Whether you choose to braaaap 200 rounds or 20 with your minigun takes about the same time, especially when you have such a hefty abstraction as 1-10 AP.

That's true for short bursts, but the longer your burst is, the more time actual shooting takes.
With big enough ammo supply you should be capable of spending entire turn just grinding through it (and how long is FO turn anyway?).

You're probably right. Turn is 5 AP + AG/2, but I'm thinking of a way to double everything up.

But how long is it in seconds?

I guess 10 secs? Let's say a minigun fires 50 rounds a second, so 50 rounds per AP, if you have max agility, if you have min agility, then it'd have to be 25 rounds per AP... goddamn AP=AG and its wacky time-fluctuating magic.

Never really thought about it, but you would actually be better off treating AP as time, make it static, and just adapt the AP costs instead based on AG. That way you can easily allow for differentiating between things that don't cost less time based on your agility (e.g. minigun ROF) and things that do... shame AP in FO only goes up potentially to 99, cause 0.1 sec per AP would've been nice. But let's say 0.2 secs per AP, then 1 AP per 10 rounds + (40 - (AG * 1.5)) AP for rudimentary aiming, then at mediocre (4) AG, you can fire 16*10=160 rounds in a full turn.

edit: don't think btw that you can make a gun fire more than a 100 rounds in a burst, but it's an amusing example anyway.

 

[dunno lah]

Would you consider making arbitrary changes to the Miniguns? Turn the bursts into 50/100 rounds at maybe 7-8AP, give 200 round magazines to the miniguns(maybe give 300 for Vindicator ) and allow for one full turn to expend entire magazine?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Like I said, I don't think the engine allows for more than a 100 burst rounds, but any more'd probably just be a total waste anyway regardless of your strength.

One more thing DraQ: I haven't even thought about separating aiming and firing since starting this mod when I assumed it was impossible, but I only now realized that it shouldn't even be that hard to implement. All I need to do is implement my own UI element that refreshes everytime you add another AP to your aiming time and that's it. Anyway, first have to figure out exactly what the plan is with AP-costs and then I can get to that. Thanks for mentioning it again.

 

[DraQ]

Never really thought about it, but you would actually be better off treating AP as time, make it static, and just adapt the AP costs instead based on AG. That way you can easily allow for differentiating between things that don't cost less time based on your agility (e.g. minigun ROF) and things that do...

It would be more mess in tabletop (constant recalculations of action costs), but see no reason not to on a computer and it's a more elegant, unified mechanics.

shame AP in FO only goes up potentially to 99, cause 0.1 sec per AP would've been nice.

The difference between 0.1 and 10/99s is negligible. Having 0.(10)s per AP would work just as fine.
I think the most problematic part would be displaying those 99APs to the player - FO LEDs are quite iconic, but they have limited capabilities.

Like I said, I don't think the engine allows for more than a 100 burst rounds, but any more'd probably just be a total waste anyway regardless of your strength.

True, though a lot of stuff depends on weapon's weight, construction and ROF.

Heavier weapons are less affected by recoil, some weapons have all sorts of recoil-damping mechanisms that delay recoil and even it out over time, finally, if firing really fast, certain number of rounds will leave the barrel before it's actually affected by recoil.
Miniguns, for example are heavy and fire ridiculously fast.

One more thing DraQ: I haven't even thought about separating aiming and firing since starting this mod when I assumed it was impossible, but I only now realized that it shouldn't even be that hard to implement. All I need to do is implement my own UI element that refreshes everytime you add another AP to your aiming time and that's it. Anyway, first have to figure out exactly what the plan is with AP-costs and then I can get to that. Thanks for mentioning it again.

Ideally you'd have separate aim action, with AG and weapon dependent cost (possibly penalty for low ST), and fire action(s). Penalties for sub sequent rounds fired would pile up until another aim action or until turn is ended with left-over (or idle action is used if such is planned).
Ideally it should also be possible to aim at empty hexes and have the aim stick to anything hostile passing through.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Would it be possible to give a secondary "attack" to heavy auto weapons that would let you deploy a bipod or tripod for added stability?
The benefit would be cancelled by any movement.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Would it be possible to give a secondary "attack" to heavy auto weapons that would let you deploy a bipod or tripod for added stability?
The benefit would be cancelled by any movement.

Hmm, on the one hand I like it, because it's a way for low-medium strength characters to use heavy weapons at an AP penalty, on the other hand I'm not sure if there's enough of a disadvantage there. What's to stop someone from just installing a tripod before combat, then spending all of combat in that same place? It's not like movement is even remotely important for a ranged character.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Good point. Some encounters could become too easy this way.

On the other hand mobility is already OP as hell in this game - 2x Bonus Move, 2x Action Boy, a decent weapon & skill and you are safe 90% of the time. An effective way to deal with tough melee enemies is the popular "shoot once & run and they will spend their AP just chasing you" tactics. Mowing them down instead could be a more dangerous, but manly alternative.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Good point. Some encounters could become too easy this way.

On the other hand mobility is already OP as hell in this game - 2x Bonus Move, 2x Action Boy, a decent weapon & skill and you are safe 90% of the time. An effective way to deal with tough melee enemies is the popular "shoot once & run and they will spend their AP just chasing you" tactics. Mowing them down instead could be a more dangerous, but manly alternative.

Also a good point, but if I go with the new AP system, I'll also have a lot more flexibility when it comes to movement costs, so doing shoot and runs with heavy guns would be out of the question anyway.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Well, you can keep this as an option if you find auto weapons in the need of a boost. The new AP=time system sounds good.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Kaucukovnik, I may have thought of a way to fix both the peek around the corner exploit and the shoot and outrun melee enemies exploit you mentioned (and I hadn't thought about yet, so thanks). I didn't like really like how movement would pan out in the new AP system (same thing as with AP reductions in the old one: going from 4 to 3 movecost would be a vastly greater bonus than, say, going from 10 to 9 and would probably introduce a whole new line of exploits), so it got me thinking about introducing acceleration: how about everybody has the same initial speed, but AG decides your top speed only?

What I've been looking at is 12 AP (so at a max AP/time of 50) for the initial hex, and then top speeds ranging from 2 AP at max AG to 11 at min. You'd accelerate at 2 AP per hex, so at max AG that'd be 12 for the first hex, then 10, 8, 6, 4, 2, 2, 2, etc. At 9 AG, it'd be 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 3, 3, and so on.

In other words, the only use you'd have for being faster than your opponent, is if you're actually going at full speed, rather than doing exploitative things like shooting and then moving one or two hexes, or whatever.

edit: though on the other hand this might make chasing down enemies even more of a hassle than it already is... though I guess you could simply subtract the movement cost from the next action cost (this'd make sense: you're already either preparing or performing the attack during your movement), only at a to hit penalty.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I think that's fine, you don't necessarily have to be able to chase everyone down, just like it is possible for you to outrun them.
This could also partially provide the mechanic suggested in the VB subforum, to lower rewards for suboptimal combat. If the situation is dire enough that you are happy with making one of your enemies retreat, you may not get anything for that one in the end. Or you shoot him down, but risk prolonged fire from his buddies.

I guess the AP perks will need a total overhaul if APs are to be treated so different.


Edit: Why did you change the prosper quote? The old one was better, did it get redacted or something?

 

[DraQ]

Hmm, on the one hand I like it, because it's a way for low-medium strength characters to use heavy weapons at an AP penalty, on the other hand I'm not sure if there's enough of a disadvantage there. What's to stop someone from just installing a tripod before combat, then spending all of combat in that same place? It's not like movement is even remotely important for a ranged character.

The way I see it if the game had separate aiming step, it would reward combat movement.
Instead of current combination of blind luck, attrition and cheesy tactics due to lack of capability to anticipate and prevent damage, the balance would shift to reacting to enemies drawing bead on you. It would also allow to ramp-up lethality because of improved control.
Shortening turns (to the point where you wouldn't be able to execute complex movement-aiming-shooting maneuvers in a single turn) would help as well, by letting the combatants react more quickly.

As for aiming at terrain, the best way I can imagine would be potential target entering watched hex/group of hexes triggering interrupt, but I don't know how it should be managed in the context of existing turn division (spending your turn early, perhaps?) and there is always the problem of having the AI handle the new mechanics.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I think that's fine, you don't necessarily have to be able to chase everyone down, just like it is possible for you to outrun them.
This could also partially provide the mechanic suggested in the VB subforum, to lower rewards for suboptimal combat. If the situation is dire enough that you are happy with making one of your enemies retreat, you may not get anything for that one in the end. Or you shoot him down, but risk prolonged fire from his buddies.

Yeah, but it's really, really silly how it's basically impossible to ever overtake someone as a melee character unless you're about twice as fast because the existing system forces you to stop dead in your tracks the moment you reach your target, aim, then attack. The result is some serious Achilles and the tortoise type crap. But like DraQ rightly says, separating aiming from attacking (which by itself would cost very little AP) might solve the problem by itself without the need for a new system: ranged characters with low perception would be at an advantage to move in closer and attack, off-setting the lack of aiming by having less distance, and melee characters could quickly pounce on a slow or ill-defended character despite the aiming penalty... will have to see how it works out in practice tho.

I guess the AP perks will need a total overhaul if APs are to be treated so different.

That's part of the reason why I'm changing it around: I want to give perks out every level, so that requires some serious nerfing of the AP-perks, which can only be done by making them more granulated.

Edit: Why did you change the prosper quote? The old one was better, did it get redacted or something?

I really love the one I have now; I complimented him on something and he said "yay men". It's always good to see prosper happy.

 

[DraQ]

Yeah, but it's really, really silly how it's basically impossible to ever overtake someone as a melee character unless you're about twice as fast because the existing system forces you to stop dead in your tracks the moment you reach your target, aim, then attack. The result is some serious Achilles and the tortoise type crap. But like DraQ rightly says, separating aiming from attacking (which by itself would cost very little AP) might solve the problem by itself without the need for a new system: ranged characters with low perception would be at an advantage to move in closer and attack, off-setting the lack of aiming by having less distance, and melee characters could quickly pounce on a slow or ill-defended character despite the aiming penalty... will have to see how it works out in practice tho.

Well, melee attacks shouldn't have separate aiming phase. That should make them desirable in melee, especially given possibility of having disarming melee criticals.
Ranged attacks, OTOH should have obligatory aiming phase, you shouldn't be able to shoot anything without having to point your gun in that direction, but once you do you should be able to send rounds into stationary or even moving target with ease (1AP for single fire weapons with low recoil per round or short bursts, more for weapons with heavier kick), either continuously, or taking breaks (ending turn with leftover APs, or specific idle action) to offset accuracy penalties from recoil.

The way I see it fast shoot perk should cut down on all aiming costs, at the expense of being restricted to only aiming for body and some to-hit penalty. Not really a trait for a sniper, but perfect for room-to-room combat when targets will constantly move in and out of your line of sight forcing you to re-aim constantly and shoot fast, but at relatively easy targets.

Also, what is it about the lack of sprite gore? I'll be severely butthurt if that's the case.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Also, what is it about the lack of sprite gore? I'll be severely butthurt if that's the case.

Dude, mixing up two threads, said that in the van Buren mod thread, which'll be using the 3d models of van Buren for some reason I can't really fathom.

 

[DraQ]

Ah. Ok, butthurt averted.

Come to think of it, firing full auto could also be done 1AP at a time.

Personally I'd go for 10AP per turn (to use LEDs without additional problems), with 1s per AP or less, depending on turn length (I think 5s turns yielding 0.5s AP would be pretty optimal, maybe make it 2.5s turns, so that aiming could take significant portion of turn - even FPS like Quake 2 could get away with 0.1s engine ticks without it being noticeable and FO, with it's tiles and indirect control is far more coarsely grained).
The key idea behind separate aim phase is allowing opponent to react before getting shot, so subdividing lengthy turns into smaller and smaller APs doesn't really help.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Personally I'd go for 10AP per turn (to use LEDs without additional problems), with 1s per AP or less, depending on turn length (I think 5s turns yielding 0.5s AP would be pretty optimal, maybe make it 2.5s turns, so that aiming could take significant portion of turn - even FPS like Quake 2 could get away with 0.1s engine ticks without it being noticeable and FO, with it's tiles and indirect control is far more coarsely grained).
The key idea behind separate aim phase is allowing opponent to react before getting shot, so subdividing lengthy turns into smaller and smaller APs doesn't really help.

I think 10 AP may be too coarse, unless you want everybody to have the same amount of actions: you have to calculate movement on a per hex basis, so you can either give someone 1 AP per hex (10 per turn), or 2 AP per hex (5 per turn)... though I suppose you could make AG govern acceleration: 1st hex=AG (or AG/2), rest is 1 AP... might work.

Bigger problem tho would be attacks: suppose a melee attack is 3 AP, how do regulate that based on AG without making huge jumps? Though I suppose you could cut AG out of attack costs altogether... you'd just need to think of another way to keep it important.

edit: biggest problem for me though is that I like being able to influence AP costs through perks, and that's practically impossible with 10 AP without throwing it totally off balance.

edit2: though I have to say I'm also starting to lean towards 10 AP...

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

DraQ, okay, here's what I'm thinking. 10 AP all round. Movement is first hex costs AG/2, rest is 1 AP. Attack AP costs don't change except through traits (where I can attach hefty penalties). Aimed and regular attacks cost the same AP (regular attacks are the exact same as aimed attacks only defaulted to the torso for convenience).

For ranged, you can spend additional AP's to aim. For melee you can spend additional AP's to add force to your attack and do more damage. The effects of both of these bottom out eventually (a horrible shot can't suddenly become a master marksman just by spending a lot of time aiming; every consecutive point spent will give less of a bonus than the last and the same goes for additional damage in melee).

For weapon base costs, I'm thinking 3 for knives/pistols/punches, 4 for spears/smg's/clubs/kicks, 5 for rifles/sledges and 6 for big guns. Shooting additional rounds will probably cost more AP on a decreasing scale to account for the fact that the use of firing more rounds decreases quite quickly even with high strength (I'm thinking 2-5 rounds = +1 AP, 6-20 rounds = +2 AP 21-max rounds = +3 AP).

Agility will thus only affect movement and defence (I'll have it have an effect on blocking and counter-attacking as well); in addition to a lot of skills. I'll also have to nerf INT a bit by reducing its effect on skill points, or just reduce skill points in general and increase the effect of atts on skills even further.

edit: just summarizing for myself what would be the systemic uses of each stat:

STR: Melee damage, carry weight, weapon handling, preventing knockdowns/disarms.
PER: ranged distance mods, sequence.
END: Hitpoints, Poison/Rad resistance, preventing knockouts/missed turns/crippling hits.
CHA: Number of party members.
INT: Number of skill points.
AGI: Move costs, defense against melee (based on unused AP), defense against ranged (based on hexes moved).
LUC: Crit chance.

Seems more or less balanced on the face of it... though I still think movement needs more of a boost; like I was saying, AP costs might be subtracted from the movecost... anyway, not sure yet.

edit 2: problem with agility right now is that it's the only one that doesn't have consistent "base" benefit. It's a benefit if you move or save up unspent AP's, but if you don't, it's useless. Even PER has sequence going for it if you choose against ranged weapons... just dislike the idea of a base dodge bonus (gets me into dodging bullets mode).

edit 3: maybe I'll just restore AGI's skill point governing supremacy, that way it's a solid choice for getting good base skill counts.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Scratch what I just said, I think I have a way to keep Agility in the AP-cost reducing business without it being too obtrusive: it handles the time required to reach the full benefit of the additional AP's you spend in aiming or applying additional force (it thus basically denotes the time needed to "steady your hands" for whatever purpose).

Let's say you can add a maximum of 100% to your existing THC/melee damage; at maximum AG, this adding process takes the least amount of time (let's say 1 AP), at minimum AG, the most (let's say 5 AP). So if you have 25% THC with a pistol, spending just 1 AP at max AG brings it up to 50% (with no benefits for spending more: your hands are already as steady as they'll ever be), while spending the same at min AG only brings it up to 30%. Same would apply for hth attacks and melee damage.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Presenting my gorgious guide to the interface I stole from some Russian modders who won't get back to me and which has icons which generally don't make sense yet. Looks pretty good though.

I've decided to make the additional AP investments count towards THC for both ranged and melee weapons (know you don't like that DraQ, but hey ).

Here's how it works: each AP invested adds AG*5 percent of your combat skill to your combat skill. So, if you have a combat skill of 100, and invest one AP in aiming with an AG of 4, your effective combat skill becomes (100+(1.0*(4*5)))=120. The maximum you can add is 100%, so someone with 10 AG can only invest 2 AP's per attack (10*5=50% per AP).

I'm also thinking of adding extra movecosts for heavy weapons for the first hex moved: rifles/sledges +1 and big guns +2 (so basically the peek around the corner exploit still exists, but probably only for characters with (1) 10 AG and (2) pistols or smg's).

So, to properly summarize what each stat does:

STR: Melee damage, carry weight, weapon handling (controlling recoil and heavy weapons), DR added against melee enemies when blocking, preventing knockdowns/disarms.
PER: ranged distance mods, sequence, defense bonus based on unused AP (applies against both ranged and melee enemies you're facing and that aren't more than 2 hexes away).
END: Hitpoints, Poison/Rad resistance, preventing knockouts/missed turns/crippling hits.
CHA: Number of party members.
INT: Number of skill points.
AGI: First hex moved cost, THC bonus per AP spent aiming, defense bonus against melee enemies when dodging.
LUC: Crit chance.

Finally, you won't have to manually switch from burst to full-auto like I previously mentioned: just put the burst rounds below 4 and it automatically happens.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Progressing steadily etc.

I've been thinking about min ST again, as I'm want to do, and have decided against two different min ST mechanics for weapons. That'd just end up way too confusing.

Right now, I have just the recoil mechanic left (and a generic one for melee): have ST below this value and attacks cost extra AP's, and for burst weapons they stack per round, and drop off the THC once it goes over your ST (e.g. miniguns have a min ST of 0.5, as they're very heavy which is nice for recoil, so the first 20 rounds you shoot as normal if you have 10 ST, after that it progressively becomes less accurate).

The problem with this is obviously that it's counter-intuitive (and simply wrong) for a heavy weapon to require less strength to operate (this'll especially be a problem with extremely low recoil heavy weapons like gatling lasers). The solution I have without going with a separate min ST is to change the way max carry weight works. I never really liked the way that worked as it just came down to weak characters having to spend more time fiddling with their mules (and making trade extremely annoying). So what I was thinking is very high (or even infinite) carry weights, but limitations on how much you can have in your active hand + can wear without getting AP cost/movement/THC penalties. So a total weakling character would be able to carry a rifle, but not in combination with moderately heavy armor, etc.

I think this is actually more interesting than simply telling the player that he can't use a certain weapon (at least not without a prohibitive penalty): you can use any weapon, but you'll have to sacrifice the number of burst rounds or the power of your armor to do so.

 

[desocupado]

Does this mod makes combat more tactical, gives you control of allies and stuffies?

I've always wanted to replay the fallouts, but the too simplistic combat is a letdown nowadays.

Sorry for this sort of question in the middle of the discussion, but I'm not reading 18 pages of thread.