Preview Fallout 3 'addicting as Jet sprinkled on an Iguana-stick'

[Ogg]

Combat in Fallout 1-2 is more simplistic than any shooter out there.

Not that you're completely wrong indeed. But FO3's simply going to be even worse. Just look at the gameplay videos we've had since E3. Are you blind?

 

[FeelTheRads]

since it might atleast require some player skill

Which is what RPGs are about, really.

 

[MetalCraze]

Combat in Red Alert is more simplistic than in Mortal Kombat

 

[Armacalypse]

Combat in Fallout 1-2 is more simplistic than any shooter out there.

Not that you're completely wrong indeed. But FO3's simply going to be even worse. Just look at the gameplay videos we've had since E3. Are you blind?

No, it looks stupid as fuck. It obviously fails at requiring thought, and it looks like it might completely fail at requiring something other than keeping your mouse button hold down on an enemy too.

But there's still a chance that the game could provide somewhat of a challange on the highest difficulty, and that you could for example pick a sniper rifle and do head shot after head shot in true Unreal Tournament style if you are good enough.

But yeah, they'll probably fuck the game as a shooter too.

 

[MetalCraze]

Armacalypse, please tell me you are just trolling. Please. Because otherwise you are just stupid.

 

[Armacalypse]

since it might atleast require some player skill

Which is what RPGs are about, really.

If you can't read everything I write, don't answer to it.
I already wrote that it might be a good thing for you tr00 RPGers to have a combat system that requires no skill.

But do you really think Fallout 3 will be anything like an RPG anyway?

Armacalypse, please tell me you are just trolling. Please. Because otherwise you are just stupid.

Explain.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If you can't read everything I write, don't answer to it.

Oh, I can. What you don't understand, though, is that Fallout 3 is supposed to be an RPG. That's what they say it is, and as such I will judge from an RPG point of view. If they would have the decency to stop lying and call it a FPS then things would be different.

 

[MetalCraze]

@Armacalypse:

Well first of all you compared the combat of a turn-based RPG with rules based on tabletop GURPS system to shooters. It has a RPG system goddamnit.
But if you want it your way - Fallout provides infinitely more tactical possibilities in a combat than any average shooter. Read in the previous posts why.

And the second thing - can you honestly tell me that you never had even a bit of problems while completing Fallout on the hard combat difficulty? Especially in your first playthrough (as you've said - it required no skill and no intelligence)

 

[Armacalypse]

@Armacalypse:

Well first of all you compared the combat of a turn-based RPG with rules based on tabletop GURPS system to shooters. It has a RPG system goddamnit.
But if you want it your way - Fallout provides infinitely more tactical possibilities in a combat than any average shooter. Read in the previous posts why.

Yes, you can target limbs. But you can't duck, and you can't use cover. The rest is as deep as a shooter, if you don't count the strategic aspects that are character customization and equipment.

And the second thing - can you honestly tell me that you never had even a bit of problems while completing Fallout on the hard combat difficulty? Especially in your first playthrough (as you've said - it required no skill and no intelligence)

I don't think I've had significant problems due to me being to bad at the game. But I have certanly had problems because of my character being unskilled and poorly equipped. That's obviously a good thing, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the combat system.

But I have a question to you. Why is it that you are allowed to mix strategy games with RPGs, and not action games with RPGs? I mean aren't RPGs supposed to be about player skill in any form, wether it's about intelligence or reflexes? Aren't these things supposed to be decided by the character's Agility and Intelligence stats?

 

[pkt-zer0]

Ideally, an RPG should reward role-playing, i.e. proper in-character decision making. Things being decided by your character's intelligence score doesn't mean removing the player completely from the equation.

 

[MetalCraze]

Yes, you can target limbs. But you can't duck, and you can't use cover. The rest is as deep as a shooter, if you don't count the strategic aspects that are character costumization and equipment.

Targeting limbs also has its effects. That help you. Also did you know f.e. that if you will take down the enemy just in one turn (it's quite possible) - others won't notice it? Stealth++.
Now try playing stealthy diplomat with very poor combat skills and see how much intelligence and skill it takes to win a single fight sometimes.

But I have certanly had problems because of my character being unskilled and poorly equipped. That's obviously a good thing, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the combat system.

But it does. Some weapons require smaller distances in combat, some deal less damage. Those things are connected to the combat. Knowing the combat system is a key to getting the most even out of the weakest (in combat) character.

Why is it that you are allowed to mix strategy games with RPGs, and not action games with RPGs?

Oh but go and mix them. Just don't make them dumb like FO3. And also it will be a different genre you can't compare to others.

I mean aren't RPGs supposed to be about player skill in any form, wether it's about intelligence or reflexes?

In a ARPG with "a player skill in any form" you can't have a character you want. You can't make it balanced. And you will always have the same character. You won't make it more intelligent but weaker. You won't make it more stronger but less intelligent. No matter in what shell you will put it - it will always be the same character. Because your skill will be always constant for that character. Unless you will presume at times that your character is f.e. weaker than it is - and that will be a retarded LARPing.
And your character will always have the same combat experience. The same twitchy combat. And that bores me to tears.
Now RPG systems let you create a character you WANT not a character you CAN. See the difference?
And player skill will always be there. FO has many choices - and it really takes some intelligence to understand that you should not tell that guy with a big shotgun to kiss your ass. It also takes some intelligence to think about how to get out of the town where you just killed its mayor.

 

[J1M]

retard alert

Yeah, its you.

I should have realized that posting that in a forum filled with rabid Fallout fanboys was a bad idea. Admittedly I'm pretty rabid myself but at least I'm not so blind that I can't see the flaws. Anyone who thinks Fallout has even halfway decent combat needs to play more games. It's simple to the point of boredom and the lack of difficulty makes it even worse. There's barely any options apart from moving and attacking, with the occasional called shot thrown in. It just not fun. The best it could hope for is sort of functional.

lol the combat in Crysis looks way better than the pile of shit that was is XCOM lol.

I think you're trying to be clever although it's pretty hard to tell, particularly since I've probably played X-Com even more times than you've tried to be funny and failed. But thanks for bringing up X-Com which is the best example of turn-based done right. If some of these Fallout fanboys played it (ie. almost everyone here) they might realize how dumb they sound defending Fallout's combat.

You'll need to do better than that.

So will you.

Generally plants try to be less obvious.

 

[Shannow]

yadayada

Generally plants try to be less obvious.

But seriously, have you pre-ordered FO3 yet? I've pre-ordered 2 of those awesome survival kits. One I will open and one I will give my children as a reminder of better times. They might be slightly over-priced, but for resurrecting my favourite game series and removing the anachronisms and streamlining it they deserve it. At last I can have fast paced action combat with an awesome story and gallons of blood and gore. That is what FO is all about anyway.
I just hope they come up with some strong DRM. I wouldn't want pirates to ruin this game like they did other great games (e.g. Crysis and Titan Quest).

This is going to be so epic. I'm all giddy already. FO3 will have the extreme, next-gen qualities that made Oblivion the best RPG ever and combine it with the typical FO gore, maturity and oldschool charm that every gamer loves.

 

[Rohit_N]

But isn't that what you want anyway? A purposely bad combat system making combat all about the skill of the character, and leaving player skill or intelligence out of it?

Intelligence? I thought Codexers are in favor of intelligent combat systems that engage the player.

And, er, who here has said Fallout's combat was perfect, anyway?

But the combat system in Fallout 3 might actually be better (for good or bad...), since it might atleast require some player skill, in the form of reflexes.

Player skill in the form of reflexes usually doesn't bode well for role-playing the character you want to play, since it's possible to have a character who sucks at combat perform well at it because the player who's guiding him has good twitch skills.

 

[Armacalypse]

Yes, you can target limbs. But you can't duck, and you can't use cover. The rest is as deep as a shooter, if you don't count the strategic aspects that are character costumization and equipment.

Targeting limbs also has its effects. That help you. Also did you know f.e. that if you will take down the enemy just in one turn (it's quite possible) - others won't notice it? Stealth++.
Now try playing stealthy diplomat with very poor combat skills and see how much intelligence and skill it takes to win a single fight sometimes.

Even with such a character, I don't see the overwhelming number of options at your disposal. Sure, you could do things like run behind a wall and wait for the enemy to come to shotgun range, or you could use some items to help you. But you can do that in most shooters too.

But I have certanly had problems because of my character being unskilled and poorly equipped. That's obviously a good thing, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the combat system.

But it does. Some weapons require smaller distances in combat, some deal less damage. Those things are connected to the combat. Knowing the combat system is a key to getting the most even out of the weakest (in combat) character.

Again, this doesn't make the Fallout combat system more sophisticated than shooters. Most shooters have snipers, shotguns and explosive weapons. Some shooters have even more diverse and situational weapons.

And what I meant was strategically preparing your character before combat, which obviously doesn't happen in combat, and thus doesn't have anything to do with the combat system. This is something you should be able to do in any RPG imo.

I mean aren't RPGs supposed to be about player skill in any form, wether it's about intelligence or reflexes?

In a ARPG with "a player skill in any form" you can't have a character you want. You can't make it balanced. And you will always have the same character. You won't make it more intelligent but weaker. You won't make it more stronger but less intelligent. No matter in what shell you will put it - it will always be the same character. Because your skill will be always constant for that character. Unless you will presume at times that your character is f.e. weaker than it is - and that will be a retarded LARPing.
And your character will always have the same combat experience. The same twitchy combat. And that bores me to tears.
Now RPG systems let you create a character you WANT not a character you CAN. See the difference?
And player skill will always be there. FO has many choices - and it really takes some intelligence to understand that you should not tell that guy with a big shotgun to kiss your ass. It also takes some intelligence to think about how to get out of the town where you just killed its mayor.

Yes, player skill will always be there. In the end you have to "LARP" if you want your character to choose the really stupid dialogue options, or if you want him to be stupid enough to rush the enemy with his sniper rifle, since he won't do it because of his stats alone.

Player skill in the form of reflexes usually doesn't bode well for role-playing the character you want to play, since it's possible to have a character who sucks at combat perform well at it because the player who's guiding him has good twitch skills.

Yes, and it's possible to have a character with 5 IQ that absolutely sucks at tactics become Napoleon because the player who's guiding him has good thinking skills.

The question is where the line of player and character influence is drawn.

 

[Letum Fol]

Look at all the sad little boys defending Fallout combat. Seriously, have any of you played X-Com. Or Silent Storm, Jagged Alliance 2, and TOEE. They seem to be discussed a lot here but if anyone calls FO combat "deep" after having played them, then there's something very wrong here.

Oh and a little disclaimer. I love Fallout. It's the absolute epitome of free-form roleplaying and has never been surpassed, although it was almost matched by Arcanum. I just get pissed off when people get carried away and disregard its flaws. And there were flaws.

 

[FeelTheRads]

And there were flaws.

Le yawn. Nobody says it's perfect I believe in fact you just came here assuming everybody thinks it's perfect and looking to start a flame war.
Anyway, the combat may no be so complex as others, but you come and tell us that the combat in Fallout 3 will be better because you can target body parts which also could be done in the other Fallouts? Yeah, man, you have a really good point.

 

[MetalCraze]

@Armacalypse:
Hey I thought you were saying that FO's combat is dumber than that of shooters? Now it looks like you're in the process of flip flop.
The comparison of two different genres is still dumb though.

And you obviously don't understand what is meant by LARPing. LARPing is basically imagining something that is not there and acting like it is. Obviously you can charge at enemy stupidly whenever you wish and that will be a decision any character can make and also FO obviously gives enough options to not go into the aforementioned LARPing bs. Even for dumb characters.

@Letum Fol: Try harder.

 

[Volrath]

Fallout + Silent Storm = teh perfect game

 

[Truth]

 

[Armacalypse]

@Armacalypse:
Hey I thought you were saying that FO's combat is dumber than that of shooters? Now it looks like you're in the process of flip flop.
The comparison of two different genres is still dumb though.

You presume alot.
I pointed out the things you can do in Fallout combat that you can do in shooters too. But you still can't duck and take cover, and even some weapons in Doom are more different and situational than in Fallout.

And you obviously don't understand what is meant by LARPing. LARPing is basically imagining something that is not there and acting like it is. Obviously you can charge at enemy stupidly whenever you wish and that will be a decision any character can make and also FO obviously gives enough options to not go into the aforementioned LARPing bs. Even for dumb characters.

I think I might have misunderstood you. You wrote that in a game with player skill in any form, you couldn't roleplay without "LARPing". I guess you just formulated it wrong or something.

Anyway, I don't want to be a complete bystander. I want to influence things myself too, as I imagine most do.

 

[shihonage]

@Armacalypse:
Hey I thought you were saying that FO's combat is dumber than that of shooters? Now it looks like you're in the process of flip flop.
The comparison of two different genres is still dumb though.

You presume alot.
I pointed out the things you can do in Fallout combat that you can do in shooters too. But you still can't duck and take cover, and even some weapons in Doom are more different and situational than in Fallout.

Fallout's combat is a part of a general whole. The game engine has deep mechanics underneath it, and combat was a subset of that engine.

In Doom, and most FPS that followed, your character is affected by nothing except health and armor.

In Fallout combat, because every person has way more properties than just armor and health, the possibilities are wide. For instance, you can stock up on flares and max out your THROW skill. Then you blind the stronger enemies with flares, shoot them in the legs and arms, and let your dog gnaw them to death.

See, I addressed your silly argument without actually calling it silly, well, except for this sentence, but nobody's perfect. You have to appreciate my restraint, given the silly nature of what you said. Oh, there I go again.

 

[kingcomrade]

How do you blind people with flares?

 

[shihonage]

Throw and stockpile flares. They take 1AP for an aimed shot, and the jinxed+luck combo means from half a room away you can take one turn and completely incapacitate two guys; break both knees, arms and blind them so they can only sit there and whimper waiting for Dogmeat to clean up the remains.

 

[kingcomrade]

I didn't know throwing flares blinded people. Do you have to him them in the eyes?