Armacalypse said:Combat in Fallout 1-2 is more simplistic than any shooter out there.
Not that you're completely wrong indeed. But FO3's simply going to be even worse. Just look at the gameplay videos we've had since E3. Are you blind?
Armacalypse said:Combat in Fallout 1-2 is more simplistic than any shooter out there.
since it might atleast require some player skill
No, it looks stupid as fuck. It obviously fails at requiring thought, and it looks like it might completely fail at requiring something other than keeping your mouse button hold down on an enemy too.Ogg said:Not that you're completely wrong indeed. But FO3's simply going to be even worse. Just look at the gameplay videos we've had since E3. Are you blind?Armacalypse said:Combat in Fallout 1-2 is more simplistic than any shooter out there.
If you can't read everything I write, don't answer to it.FeelTheRads said:since it might atleast require some player skill
Which is what RPGs are about, really.
Explain.skyway said:Armacalypse, please tell me you are just trolling. Please. Because otherwise you are just stupid.
If you can't read everything I write, don't answer to it.
Yes, you can target limbs. But you can't duck, and you can't use cover. The rest is as deep as a shooter, if you don't count the strategic aspects that are character customization and equipment.skyway said:@Armacalypse:
Well first of all you compared the combat of a turn-based RPG with rules based on tabletop GURPS system to shooters. It has a RPG system goddamnit.
But if you want it your way - Fallout provides infinitely more tactical possibilities in a combat than any average shooter. Read in the previous posts why.
I don't think I've had significant problems due to me being to bad at the game. But I have certanly had problems because of my character being unskilled and poorly equipped. That's obviously a good thing, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the combat system.skyway said:And the second thing - can you honestly tell me that you never had even a bit of problems while completing Fallout on the hard combat difficulty? Especially in your first playthrough (as you've said - it required no skill and no intelligence)
Yes, you can target limbs. But you can't duck, and you can't use cover. The rest is as deep as a shooter, if you don't count the strategic aspects that are character costumization and equipment.
But it does. Some weapons require smaller distances in combat, some deal less damage. Those things are connected to the combat. Knowing the combat system is a key to getting the most even out of the weakest (in combat) character.But I have certanly had problems because of my character being unskilled and poorly equipped. That's obviously a good thing, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the combat system.
Oh but go and mix them. Just don't make them dumb like FO3. And also it will be a different genre you can't compare to others.Why is it that you are allowed to mix strategy games with RPGs, and not action games with RPGs?
In a ARPG with "a player skill in any form" you can't have a character you want. You can't make it balanced. And you will always have the same character. You won't make it more intelligent but weaker. You won't make it more stronger but less intelligent. No matter in what shell you will put it - it will always be the same character. Because your skill will be always constant for that character. Unless you will presume at times that your character is f.e. weaker than it is - and that will be a retarded LARPing.I mean aren't RPGs supposed to be about player skill in any form, wether it's about intelligence or reflexes?
Generally plants try to be less obvious.Letum Fol said:entertainer said:retard alert
Yeah, its you.
I should have realized that posting that in a forum filled with rabid Fallout fanboys was a bad idea. Admittedly I'm pretty rabid myself but at least I'm not so blind that I can't see the flaws. Anyone who thinks Fallout has even halfway decent combat needs to play more games. It's simple to the point of boredom and the lack of difficulty makes it even worse. There's barely any options apart from moving and attacking, with the occasional called shot thrown in. It just not fun. The best it could hope for is sort of functional.
lol the combat in Crysis looks way better than the pile of shit that was is XCOM lol.
I think you're trying to be clever although it's pretty hard to tell, particularly since I've probably played X-Com even more times than you've tried to be funny and failed. But thanks for bringing up X-Com which is the best example of turn-based done right. If some of these Fallout fanboys played it (ie. almost everyone here) they might realize how dumb they sound defending Fallout's combat.
You'll need to do better than that.
So will you.
J1M said:Generally plants try to be less obvious.Letum Fol said:yadayada
Intelligence? I thought Codexers are in favor of intelligent combat systems that engage the player.But isn't that what you want anyway? A purposely bad combat system making combat all about the skill of the character, and leaving player skill or intelligence out of it?
Player skill in the form of reflexes usually doesn't bode well for role-playing the character you want to play, since it's possible to have a character who sucks at combat perform well at it because the player who's guiding him has good twitch skills.But the combat system in Fallout 3 might actually be better (for good or bad...), since it might atleast require some player skill, in the form of reflexes.
Even with such a character, I don't see the overwhelming number of options at your disposal. Sure, you could do things like run behind a wall and wait for the enemy to come to shotgun range, or you could use some items to help you. But you can do that in most shooters too.skyway said:Yes, you can target limbs. But you can't duck, and you can't use cover. The rest is as deep as a shooter, if you don't count the strategic aspects that are character costumization and equipment.
Targeting limbs also has its effects. That help you. Also did you know f.e. that if you will take down the enemy just in one turn (it's quite possible) - others won't notice it? Stealth++.
Now try playing stealthy diplomat with very poor combat skills and see how much intelligence and skill it takes to win a single fight sometimes.
Again, this doesn't make the Fallout combat system more sophisticated than shooters. Most shooters have snipers, shotguns and explosive weapons. Some shooters have even more diverse and situational weapons.skyway said:But it does. Some weapons require smaller distances in combat, some deal less damage. Those things are connected to the combat. Knowing the combat system is a key to getting the most even out of the weakest (in combat) character.But I have certanly had problems because of my character being unskilled and poorly equipped. That's obviously a good thing, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the combat system.
Yes, player skill will always be there. In the end you have to "LARP" if you want your character to choose the really stupid dialogue options, or if you want him to be stupid enough to rush the enemy with his sniper rifle, since he won't do it because of his stats alone.skyway said:In a ARPG with "a player skill in any form" you can't have a character you want. You can't make it balanced. And you will always have the same character. You won't make it more intelligent but weaker. You won't make it more stronger but less intelligent. No matter in what shell you will put it - it will always be the same character. Because your skill will be always constant for that character. Unless you will presume at times that your character is f.e. weaker than it is - and that will be a retarded LARPing.I mean aren't RPGs supposed to be about player skill in any form, wether it's about intelligence or reflexes?
And your character will always have the same combat experience. The same twitchy combat. And that bores me to tears.
Now RPG systems let you create a character you WANT not a character you CAN. See the difference?
And player skill will always be there. FO has many choices - and it really takes some intelligence to understand that you should not tell that guy with a big shotgun to kiss your ass. It also takes some intelligence to think about how to get out of the town where you just killed its mayor.
Yes, and it's possible to have a character with 5 IQ that absolutely sucks at tactics become Napoleon because the player who's guiding him has good thinking skills.Player skill in the form of reflexes usually doesn't bode well for role-playing the character you want to play, since it's possible to have a character who sucks at combat perform well at it because the player who's guiding him has good twitch skills.
And there were flaws.
You presume alot.skyway said:@Armacalypse:
Hey I thought you were saying that FO's combat is dumber than that of shooters? Now it looks like you're in the process of flip flop.
The comparison of two different genres is still dumb though.
I think I might have misunderstood you. You wrote that in a game with player skill in any form, you couldn't roleplay without "LARPing". I guess you just formulated it wrong or something.skyway said:And you obviously don't understand what is meant by LARPing. LARPing is basically imagining something that is not there and acting like it is. Obviously you can charge at enemy stupidly whenever you wish and that will be a decision any character can make and also FO obviously gives enough options to not go into the aforementioned LARPing bs. Even for dumb characters.
Armacalypse said:You presume alot.skyway said:@Armacalypse:
Hey I thought you were saying that FO's combat is dumber than that of shooters? Now it looks like you're in the process of flip flop.
The comparison of two different genres is still dumb though.
I pointed out the things you can do in Fallout combat that you can do in shooters too. But you still can't duck and take cover, and even some weapons in Doom are more different and situational than in Fallout.
Throw and stockpile flares. They take 1AP for an aimed shot, and the jinxed+luck combo means from half a room away you can take one turn and completely incapacitate two guys; break both knees, arms and blind them so they can only sit there and whimper waiting for Dogmeat to clean up the remains.