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Interview Fallout 3 interview at Shacknews

dagorkan

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galsiah said:
Crichton said:
1) Get the combat system right: A transposed version of Oblivion's action-oriented combat won't cut it. Combat in a Fallout game should be more tactical, allowing you to specifically designate where you want to hit a foe. It ain't Fallout unless you can kick a rat in the groin.
This is outrageously stupid. Hit locations...
Agreed. It's a pretty laughable notion of "tactics".

Agreed.

There's nothing "tactical" about any game with one unit.
I still disagree with this. Consider doing an X-com mission with one soldier (if necessary, assume your line of sight extends further than the opposition). There's no amazing tactical depth in this scenario, but I find it difficult to see how there's "nothing tactical" about it. [unless you're saying that "tactics" involves more than one unit by definition - in which case your point is vacuous for anyone who shares that definition (and Desslock clearly doesn't)]

http://www.geocities.com/nkfarma/xchal/challenge.html

Try out that scenario (it's downloadable) with one soldier (or two if it's two hard). I have tried it and I can tell you that there are definitely tactics. If you play like an idiot you will lose with 99.9% certainty. If you think carefully you might have 30%. If you have experience with the game and are very careful you might have 60%.

What explains that difference if it's not tactics (choices the player can make which have an impact on success/outcome)?

There are quite a few differences between single-soldier X-com combat and (random encounter) Fallout combat:
Units start a long way apart in X-com; in each other's faces in Fallout.
Most units are hidden in X-com; all units are visible in Fallout.
There's (often) a lot of cover in X-com; there's less in Fallout.
The cover can be destroyed in X-com; not in Fallout.
X-com areas usually have more than one level; Fallout's don't.
Shots can be made over much longer distances in X-com (without absurdly good skills).
Units generally die faster in X-com than Fallout (until you start to hit them all in the eyes) - fewer pitched battles at close range.
There are proximity mines, timed explosives, smoke grenades, electro-flares, incendiary weapons and motion scanners in X-com.

X-com for sure is the better combat system and a Fallout with that system would be much better. The only objection is the retarded childish insistence (of most 'RPG fans') of having a an ass-kissing, super-hero without having to work to create that character. It's funny how everybody's joking about Mass Effect Commander Shephard and his 'extreme' personality when I can bet most of you view your characters the same way - OK maybe not to the same extreme degree.

People don't want to play realistic characters or to be serious challenged for their rewards.
 

denizsi

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Section8 said:
Oh, and while I think about it, when Pete Hines used to work for the Avault, as a big Interplay fan, they gave him all the Interplay releases to review? Talk about integrity. And it seems that slippery slope of whoredom eventually lands you in darkest recesses of gaming PR.

Emil also used to work for Avault. One would think Avault only serves to suck dev & publisher ass and export shitty employers to gaming companies, but Emil doesn't really fit in completely with that definition. That said, Avault is DEAD!

It very much implies that FO3 will be a real time game, but it has also been said that they plan on using SPECIAL. How the hell are they going to implement SPECIAL in a real time game?

There isn't much sense in attributing SPECIAL solely to a turn-based and isometric game. In the end, it's just a system of attributes with skills to fit into a reasonable perception of reality. If you're agile, you're supposed to move and coordinate your body better and so it affects various ratings etc. or so the rationale goes. The mechanics and the relations between attirbutes, skills and in-game actions could be made to work quite good in an ideal world; so in theory, there is nothing wrong about SPECIAL in real-time. However, we all know Beth isn't capable of realising this, getting it right. Therefore, you can bash Beth based on this righteous assumption, but not the idea on itself.

Since the game will be M, the only reason to not have children would be laziness on the part of the developers.

You better believe that, but it wouldn't be the sole reason anyway. Here is my prediction on why children won't make it into FO3: Since all Beth games are doll-dress-up games but that they are not competent enough to make the system support varying body builds (also one of the reasons given for lack of different body builds like fat people in MW or OB -can't remember which.), having non-monster characters with fixed outfit wouldn't be feasible. But more importantly, even if they could they still wouldn't do it; it wouldn't be politically correct. As if being able to kill children isn't enough, you would also be able to strip them naked -god forbid you're charged for pedophilia. Think about what blackharts of the world might do with dead and naked children if people could do this in Oblivion!1

No, here is Todd's vision:
"...one of the most original and violent titles ever and will be set in a familiar US city."

Despite Todd contributing another bit to his mountain of idiocy, I don't think his own definition of violence is near anywhere traditional gore and blood-splatter. Dismemberment (numerous games), hacking internal organs out (Soldier of Fortune series -is there any other game with that?), multiple ways of dying (ie. electrocution, burning, melting in games like FO1&2, Blood 1, DN3D, Requiem); there won't be anything like these in my opinion. They are too lazy and incompetent to accomplish so many tasks (according to MSFD, Oblivion didn't have dismemberment only because the engine didn't support handling seperate body parts, which is bullshit as we know). Also Remember how the promised "visceral and adrenaline packed" combat turned out in Oblivion: pre-1.5 counter strike (when bunny-jumping and moving chaotically like a retard were playing styles that worked) with swords, the tilting effect when you got hit and the blood splatter around the surfaces and on your sword.

He did initially say that he hadn't actually seen a build of the game, or any tech, in that article. In fact, he said it specifically so that rabid fans of Fallout (you lot) don't go and jump to any conclusions (which you seem to have done anyway)

Desslock is full of bullshit. Despite having said that he hadn't seen the game, he lets this "mysterious" air flow around him as if he might know something for real, saying things like "All I'll say is that you are wrong" about people predicting first-person. He just can't say anything straight.

Also, I remember an interview, very probably with Pete Hines, where the interviewee praised FO games but said that some of the features are old and just doesn't work today, indirectly hinting turn-based combat and isometric perspective. I've been looking for that interview with no success. Anyone else remember it?

edit: It was probably my memory playing tricks on me based on this interview:

Most of Bethesda’s games are released on PC and X-box. We’ve already seen that a complex RPG is possible on a console (cfr. Morrowind). Do you think an old-school RPG with lots of text and turn-based action like Fallout is going to appeal to, for instance, the average PS2 gamer?

Pete Hines:Well, Morrowind had over a million words of text in the game, and given the great success of that game on a console, I don't think text is something that will make or break a game. And obviously turn-based combat has worked well on consoles, since KOTOR blew people away last year and FF has a very large and loyal following. I think what we're finding out is that the stereotype of what a console gamer is, or what they want, isn't necessarily what it used to be. You can't define a game just by what features it has, you really have to define the experience. Some stuff works well on any platform because it's so brilliantly done, and some stuff won't work on any platform because it's the right features with the wrong implementation.

http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=fo3-faq

I probably took that part about implementation wrong in the past. That said, I thought KOTOR had RTwP, no?
 

Saint_Proverbius

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elander_ said:
Fallout Tactics achieved a lot in terms in tactical combat and added both rp and rt as alternative modes to the game.

Fallout Tactics? All you had to do is have a couple of guys with high perceptions on agressive with the best rifles, and the rest with lesser rifles. Just march them around until the Mission Complete! window pops up for the most part. Attacking Navarro in Fallout 2 or dealing with Adytum in Fallout were by far more tactical situations with only one character.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rp". If you mean "real time with pause", it didn't have it. The real time mode is why the turn based mode was abyssmally easy and that's because of the level design considerations of real time versus turn based. Fire a shot off in Fallout, and the whole town guys nuts. Fire a shot off in Fallout Tactics and a few enemies really, really close to you might notice because you can't really have the whole map waking up and storming up to the player in real time.
 

elander_

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I meant team turn base.

FT maps were huge probably 4x to 8x more than a normal Fallout map. Every game has to deal with the AI distance problem somehow. Fallout 3 most likely being a sandbox action game will use an AI radius that disables all units beyond a certain distance of the player combined with some sort of tactical playground for actors outside the visible play area. Then theres typical AI tricks for actions games like those used in HL and DeusEx but nothing particularly realistic or tactically challenge but something that favors visual effects and reflexes. The Bloodlines path i suppose.
 

elander_

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denizsi said:
There isn't much sense in attributing SPECIAL solely to a turn-based and isometric game. In the end, it's just a system of attributes with skills to fit into a reasonable perception of reality. If you're agile, you're supposed to move and coordinate your body better and so it affects various ratings etc. or so the rationale goes. The mechanics and the relations between attirbutes, skills and in-game actions could be made to work quite good in an ideal world; so in theory, there is nothing wrong about SPECIAL in real-time. However, we all know Beth isn't capable of realising this, getting it right. Therefore, you can bash Beth based on this righteous assumption, but not the idea on itself.

SPECIAL was created for turn-base with a grid. Converting it to a real-time system would always be an hack and certainly an inferior product. It was better if they used a completely new system instead of hacking one just to say "hey were using SPECIAL so it must be good".

In terms of competence TH and Emil don't have any references to be able to deal with a task like this. Todd has systematically screwed every Elderscrolls game balance and seams incapable to balance a game, so it's natural to expect that he will focus on what Emil can do well try to dodge the balance issue with great special effects in combat.
 

JarlFrank

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From this interview:

Todd Howard said:
If you see 'Bethesda Game Studios' on the box, you know there are some crazy ideas in there. We won't always get it right, but we'll always keep trying.


Crazy ideas? Does level scaling count into that?

I don't know if this phrase should make me laugh, cry or even get some slight hopes up.
 

taxacaria

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from >>NMA - Fallout 3 FAQ<<

Fallout is one of the most beloved franchises of all time. Are you worried about meeting gamers' high expectations?
Todd Howard: I worry about meeting our own expectations...

It doesn't matter what the fans are expecting, 'cause we're developing our games to satisfy Todd's horror phantasies and our greediness.
We're very careful in how we handle franchises. I think people can look at how we've treated the Elder Scrolls and know that we'll give the same care to Fallout.

*omg*

We pride ourselves in keeping franchises relevant and bringing something fresh to the market with each game
...we will change all and everything that isn't liked by our xbox audience.
 

Fez

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It's always nice to see developers tell everyone that they are such big fans of the game or series and yet have almost no idea what made it good to start with.
 

FrancoTAU

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You mean Fallout isn't just about graphic violence, whores, and doing drugs???? Check, check and check for Fallout 3 sir! Hell, they even have Pipboy!
 

JarlFrank

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FrancoTAU said:
You mean Fallout isn't just about graphic violence, whores, and doing drugs???? Check, check and check for Fallout 3 sir! Hell, they even have Pipboy!

And I bet they still don't know the difference between Pip-Boy and Fallout-boy, the mascot of Vault Tec
 

psycojester

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This just in fallout 3 will be dropping the SPECIAL system and working with Bethesda's new SPESHUL system

S- Shooting
P- Paid content
E- EXTREME!
S- Shooting
H- hookers
U- Uber-loot
L- level scaling
 

denizsi

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elander_ said:
SPECIAL was created for turn-base with a grid. Converting it to a real-time system would always be an hack and certainly an inferior product. It was better if they used a completely new system instead of hacking one just to say "hey were using SPECIAL so it must be good".

I thought what made SPECIAL great is the particular relations between attributes, skills, traits and perks and how all of it translates into gameplay, the ability to have different character builds that are supported by game. Turn-based only covers the combat and I don't see anything special with the system as far as turn-based combat goes. It's not overly tactical than it could be, but it's not flat out elementary either. One could even say it's a lot closer to mainstream appeal than many other games with turn-based combat (though I'm not suggesting that it was designed with "mainstream appeal" in mind, but that could as well be the case).

I'm not suggesting that it's possible to capture the same feel and tactical advantage over combat with real-time first-person either. It's just a different beast and nothing inherently wrong or inferior with it. I can only agree over the absurdity of Beth making FO3 in the first place, much less using SPECIAL.

In terms of competence TH and Emil don't have any references to be able to deal with a task like this.

Of course not. I was only referring to Avault and that Emil just doesn't have mud (mixed with shit) all over his face. yet. However, you can take a look at his past articles at Avault for some insight on him and his understanding of game design.
 

JarlFrank

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psycojester said:
This just in fallout 3 will be dropping the SPECIAL system and working with Bethesda's new SPESHUL system

S- Shooting
P- Paid content
E- EXTREME!
S- Shooting
H- hookers
U- Uber-loot
L- level scaling

Second S should be Sexy Stuff, to bring a bit variety into the game. And, after all, sex was one of the main features of Fallout FTW!
 

Veracity

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KreideBein said:
Since the game will be M, the only reason to not have children would be laziness on the part of the developers.
Aren't there regions where video games that let you kill minors are illegal? Not sure where I'm getting that from, so it might be utter nonsense, but I vaguely recall thinking that was why the child sprites (but not the children) were taken out of the European release of...Fallout 2? Whichever had them, anyway. You had to patch the little gits back in with a third-party fix, since their removal was incredibly shoddily done - the sprites were just missing, but the NPCs were still present and active. Anyway, if it is right that they'd have no choice but to remove them for some countries, omitting them to begin with seems pretty forgivable.

About the Hines: considering he's a PR weasel, why is he so bloody inarticulate? Is it some kind of 'regular guy' affectation? Not much can make me long for Bioware-style hyperbole, but this guy actually manages it. At least the Bioware style is funny, if you're in the right mood.
 

elander_

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denizsi said:
Of course not. I was only referring to Avault and that Emil just doesn't have mud (mixed with shit) all over his face. yet. However, you can take a look at his past articles at Avault for some insight on him and his understanding of game design.

I have replayed Fallout about half-dozen times every time with different characters and different approaches and there's always some detail that is surprising or some new insight on devs design choices. This is a very complex game the result of several years of evolution of rpgs. The reasonable thing to do would be to hire their creators who know exactly why the game was designed the way it ways on an advisory level, but PH already said in an interview they don't want nothing to do with them. This at minimum a close-minded and delusional way of thinking about this game.

denizsi said:
Turn-based only covers the combat and I don't see anything special with the system as far as turn-based combat goes.

You are right of course but wasn't TH who said that a big part of Fallout fun was combat?
 

Saint_Proverbius

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elander_ said:
FT maps were huge probably 4x to 8x more than a normal Fallout map.

No, they weren't. It's just that all the FOT maps were generally the same size, big. Fallout has several areas that were smaller like the vaults.

Every game has to deal with the AI distance problem somehow.

And you don't think the time scaling has any affect on this decision? I know for a fact the view/hearing distance was a direct consequence of the real time combat from talking about it with the developers, but it's pretty obvious you can wake up everyone on the map for turn based when that would be bad for real time.
 

denizsi

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I have replayed Fallout about half-dozen times every time with different characters and different approaches and there's always some detail that is surprising or some new insight on devs design choices. This is a very complex game the result of several years of evolution of rpgs. The reasonable thing to do would be to hire their creators who know exactly why the game was designed the way it ways on an advisory level, but PH already said in an interview they don't want nothing to do with them. This at minimum a close-minded and delusional way of thinking about this game.

I'm not trying to defend Beth there. I've totally given up on them and FO3. I'm only saying.. well I'm not saying anything either. I just pointed out that both Pete and Emil used to work for Avault.

You are right of course but wasn't TH who said that a big part of Fallout fun was combat?

He must have ment the violence. I clearly remember him saying how cool it was to have a perk like "Bloody Mess", in an interview.
 

Bradylama

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There are several aspects of SPECIAL that translate directly into turn-based combat, because it's the only method of recreating simulationist roleplaying.

If you tried re-creating SPECIAL in real-time then a lot of the appeal is lost in the process, because the experience is no longer simulationist. Even with location-based damage and character builds, all action will still be reliant on the reflection time and aim of the player, and the use of SPECIAL ceases as a roleplaying utility in regards to combat.

The interaction between stats and attributes is important, but when you turn a roleplaying system into an action game, a lot of the qualities of the old system become meaningless.
 

galsiah

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That's just not true. It's clearly the case that the player's reactions, aim etc. will have a large effect (so it's not an RPG for Roqua and the Roquettes). However, that's quite different from saying that attributes etc. have no effect.

For many players (those who have played similar games before), their ability at shooting, reacting etc. are pretty stable throughout the game. What varies most will be attribute effects.

It's simple enough to introduce various attribute effects into shooting. E.g. how steady the character's aim is; how close the shot is to the "crosshair"; how much the character controls recoil; how quickly the character can fire repeated shots; how quickly he can reload....

Clearly, the player's abilities are very significant, but this doesn't diminish the significance of character abilities. For most players, the effect of their improved character abilities would be more significant than improvements to their own aim/reactions (in any reasonable action/stat based combat system).
 

Bradylama

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Right, you mean attributes like perception and luck. Or character stats such as initiative and action points.

Action points? Those are translateable into real-time, right?

You're also missing the point. It's impossible to roleplay real-time combat.
 

elander_

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Saint_Proverbius said:
And you don't think the time scaling has any affect on this decision? I know for a fact the view/hearing distance was a direct consequence of the real time combat from talking about it with the developers, but it's pretty obvious you can wake up everyone on the map for turn based when that would be bad for real time.

I see your point that pausing the game allows the AI to have more time to "think" and thus have a more interesting behavior. I just wouldn't throw away FOT combined RT and TB system. FOT real-time was emulated in TB mode and this is what made it possible to play the game online and the emulated RT provided a much better system than say NWN.

I really don't see why they had to limit the AI radius in FOT when we are playing in TB mode, or in real-time either, when they could simply make the AI decide faster/dumber and still updates all npcs in the map.
 

galsiah

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Bradylama said:
Right, you mean attributes like perception and luck. Or character stats such as initiative and action points. Action points? Those are translateable into real-time, right?
Who cares?
Anyone who thinks that Fallout was great because it used the SPECIAL attributes, or that those attributes should necessarily be used for a real-time version, needs their head examined.

The point is that a suitable attribute system can have a meaningful effect on combat.
Using SPECIAL would only make any sense for someone who was utterly incapable of designing a more appropriate system themselves (which fits I guess).

You're also missing the point. It's impossible to roleplay real-time combat.
?? How does one "roleplay" any combat?
If you mean it's impossible to have a variety of combat options in real time (or at least as wide a variety as Fallout combat), you're not thinking too hard.
 

elander_

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Bradylama said:
It's impossible to roleplay real-time combat.

Maybe what he is trying to say is that we can limit combat in a way so that your stats still mater to some degree. I think Leo mentioned something about this when he was working on Bloodlines. However Bloodlines combat sucked a bit and nobody enjoyed shooting someone in their face with a shotgun and missing.
 

taxacaria

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psycojester said:
This just in fallout 3 will be dropping the SPECIAL system and working with Bethesda's new SPESHUL system

S- Shooting
P- Paid content
E- EXTREME!
S- Shooting
H- hookers
U- Uber-loot
L- level scaling

I'd suggest :

S - Shooting
P- Paid content
E- Excrements
S- Sexy stuff (thxs to Jarl_Frank)
H- Horror elements
U- Unready
L- Level scaling
 

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