Preview Fallout 3 nearly baked

[4too]

Convergence Of Game Design

Convergence Of Game Design


The Escapist Magazine had one of many features about Bethesda in 2007,
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... -Direction
Interesting how on the ropes B-soft was until Zenimax came a courting.

[In before XYZ : Where would Troika be if ... action RPG squeal #5 of TTOEE ... ?]

Joe Blancato (2/6/07) quoting Todd Howard:

... "You can't repeat yourself," he said. "I think it's a common trap when working on a sequel to just add some new features and content, and keep doing that. I think that's a good way to drive your games into the ground. You start drifting from what made the game special in the first place. So with The Elder Scrolls, I'm careful to not repeat what we've done before, and to really focus on trying to recapture again what made the games exciting in the first place.
"A good exercise is to read old game reviews, because you get a much better sense of what made an old game tick, without being distracted by its aging. I could read you an old Arena review and you'd be hard-pressed to tell which of our games it was describing." ...

The Escapist quote pointed to Bethesda's intended evolution of sequels that pre-meditatively follow the herd of emotional fashion, the scribblers for hire, game journalists.

Risk mix of metaphors, unless the dross can be turned and co-opted like compost, hype in equals hype out.

Allegedly, Daggerfall not the 'natural' parent of Morrowind, and Oblivion a red headed step child of Morrowwind.

Part of this conscious design limitation, this Convergence Of Game Design can be fingered as 'dumbing down'.


Keender_surprise:

The funny thing is, you could actually have more than one companion in Oblivion

Read that, and had a mind's eye image of this statement standing alone in a dust blown movie backlot - wind whistling - clouds darkening.

FO Charisma as a NPC *PARTY* stat, FO3 - no - Animal House or Band Of Brothers, teh hard, Boy And His Dog with lurking optional cameo quest relevant red shirted side kick.

Me And My Shadow ...

Sometimes less is less.


Saint_Proverbius:

... Actually, it looks to me like it's a scaled back Oblivion with guns. Of course, that's not shocking at all since Morrowind was a scaled back Daggerfall, Oblivion was a scaled back Morrowind, so..

It's kind of funny they claim they have tons of feature creep in their games going from the design doc to the final version when each of their games have had less features than the one before it.

I think the statement that Oblivion's design doc must of been "Start in a small, empty space" is accurate when you combine it with Howard's statement on feature creep. ...

If the free roaming rambled, in some general predilection, then the benign randomness was like a lead dog.

And like a dog trek, would go from compost pile to pissing post, then down to the estuary to sniff up a dead eel ...

A cookie cutter Oblivion sequel in Fallout clothes does not appear to be in the cognate mission statement.

Who knows what was added then edited out, and when. Use the Ouija Board while sitting on old issues of OXBOX Magazine and CGW ..

Likely no dead eels in FO3 ...

Sometimes less could be, just less, and see what the dog drags in.





4too

 

[Briosafreak]

"You can't repeat yourself," he said. "I think it's a common trap when working on a sequel to just add some new features and content, and keep doing that. I think that's a good way to drive your games into the ground. You start drifting from what made the game special in the first place. So with The Elder Scrolls, I'm careful to not repeat what we've done before, and to really focus on trying to recapture again what made the games exciting in the first place.
"A good exercise is to read old game reviews, because you get a much better sense of what made an old game tick, without being distracted by its aging. I could read you an old Arena review and you'd be hard-pressed to tell which of our games it was describing." ...

Curious, Todd Howard said the same things about their work on Fallout 3, even to the point of reading the original game reviews of Fallout.

 

[4too]

Curiouser And Curiouser

Curiouser And Curiouser


Briosafreak:

Curious, Todd Howard said the same things about their work on Fallout 3, even to the point of reading the original game reviews of Fallout.

Documented design consistency, now anticipate ... a game in every box! B-soft in every X-BAUX!

This emphasis on professional opinion leaders,

either they are articulate enough that the nuances are distillable,

or, being the groomers of game consumers, their opinions must be what the target demographic believe.


'Half full or half empty' observation.



4too

 

[elander_]

They dumb it down for economic motivations. If they can sell millions of copies of Oblivion with Guns and add some Fallout art to it so they can call it Fallout 3 why spending more money and resources into making a better game? Most people will go for the shiny crap and if they improve their gaming tastes they will be more demanding with the next episode. So the trick is switch your fan base when they get too demanding, always after the easiest way to make money and stop at nothing to achieve your goals. Bethesda couldn't care less about Fallout. They only want it for publicity and for spare parts to make their crappy and over hyped games.

 

[franc kaos]

Daggerfall Bethesda is <b>not</b> Oblivion Bethesda. The only common thread in the company is Tod Howard (plus, I guess a few no names) - a box shifter in Daggerfall Bethesda who stuck his tongue up the new boss' arse and didn't stop sucking until he reached the top - to start shitting out their vision of the brand.

There are guys like him in every company across the world, promoted not due to any expertise they have, just their special liking for the boss' colon.

What I wish was that Stalker: Clear Skies came out for 360, PS3 and PC at the same time as FO3 and buried it, and them, once and for all - they will both be similar in NU-RPG terms, only Stalker2 will have clear design vision, artistic merit and interesting AI (fingers crossed).

Bioshock = dumbed down System Shock
Mass Effect = dumbed down Starflight etc etc etc across the industry.

It kind'a makes me laugh (ie crying inside), when you get people saying, 'But Beth said it'll have 200 endings, C&C, phased combat.' etc ad nausea; man you should'a read what they promised for Oblivion that never made it in...

:arrow:

EDIT: Just so you know, I bought Arena, imported Daggerfall (they held back the UK release to fix bugs but I couldn't wait), bought original Morrowind then the GOTY version because I lost the original disks, and bought Oblivion (which means I will torrent Fallout3 as I believe Beth still owe me a game). At least Modders fixed - and still are, the most glaring errors with MW, unfortunately Oblivion was borked (along with its construction set) at the most fundamental level.

 

[lepr]

Fallout 2, actually. And it was fucking stupid anyway. If you can't see what's wrong with that, ponder on "Uh, you're a bit crowded there. Tell somebody to GTFO if you want me to come" for a while.

No, I think it makes sense. The more charismatic a person is, the more people will follow him. The "You're a bit crowded" thing was a little goofy, but I'm not sure how they can state the "More charismatic you are, the more people follow" in dialog without just saying it with <GAME> tags around it. If you want an NPC to say something to elude to the game mechanic, there's not too many other ways of doing it.

Higher CHA should unlock certain companions, but the total number should be mostly unrestricted (except when it makes sense in the narrative).

I agree with this also. It would have been a neat feature.

- A person with a high charisma, would be more adept at handling relations between a large group. Keeping everyone happy, etc.

Exactly, however I'm not sure if simply limiting the number of followers is the most awesome way of showing this. I would much rather like to see follower related encounters whilst traversing the wastes. Kind of like the random conversations your followers would strike up with each other in in PS:T and KotOR, but with actual consequences.

For instance a character with low CH might find Sulik sweating Vic over information about his sister, or maybe Myron offering Cassidy a Joint (killing him). Whereas a PC with high CH on the other hand might find Marcus lovingly sodomizing Lenny or something.

Hello by the way

 

[Disconnected]

They only want it for publicity and for spare parts to make their crappy and over hyped games.

Well, it's a corporation. Corporations are legally bound to maximize profits to the best of their ability. It's the one obligation corporate entities have.

Obviously a design philosophy based around emergent role playing and world simulation, isn't something a corporation can indulge in, because it isn't a cost effective design philosophy. It's a complicated mess to get into, and doesn't appeal to any established market.

If teh pretties didn't sell games, corporate developers would sell text adventures. Considering the success of the embarrassingly infantile shit that passes for writing in virtually all text-heavy games in the history of gaming, especially the popular ones, I can't say I'm sorry about it. What I am sorry about, is that private corporations are legal. But that's not because of the pretty vacant games they create.

 

[elander_]

Well, it's a corporation. Corporations are legally bound to maximize profits to the best of their ability. It's the one obligation corporate entities have.

I'm a gamer not a corporation so i don't have to happy about what corporations like Bethesda are doing, even when it's legal.

 

[Claw]

Exactly, however I'm not sure if simply limiting the number of followers is the most awesome way of showing this.

Well, duh.

Seriously, Mr. One-Time-Poster. Duh. Duh.

For instance a character with low CH might find Sulik sweating Vic over information about his sister, or maybe Myron offering Cassidy a Joint (killing him). Whereas a PC with high CH on the other hand might find Marcus lovingly sodomizing Lenny or something.

That sounds great. Let's do that in Fallout 3. Oh noes, more than a dog and another NPC is too hectic. And now you even want NPC-specific interaction? Do you have any idea how much of a hassle that would cause for the player?* Are you insane?

Hello by the way

Hi. You don't have to say hello when you post on a forum for the first time, though. So, you plan on posting again?

Corporations are legally bound to maximize profits to the best of their ability. It's the one obligation corporate entities have.

No, they aren't and they don't. It's just a popular piece of folk wisdom.

It's also pretty daft, to be honest.



*Not to mention for the developers who have to produce all that shit.

 

[MetalCraze]

What I wish was that Stalker: Clear Skies came out for 360, PS3 and PC at the same time as FO3 and buried it, and them, once and for all - they will both be similar in NU-RPG terms

you know - come to think of it - you're right. even such mediocrity as stalker is much better than F3. at least it has atmosphere. and no extreme design stupidity unlike F3 with it's anti-nuke phone booths, health-restoring toilets, town worshiping unexploded nuke in the crater of unex... ah well fuck this shit.

only Stalker2 will have clear design vision, artistic merit and interesting AI (fingers crossed).

ah ah naiveness.

 

[lepr]

Exactly, however I'm not sure if simply limiting the number of followers is the most awesome way of showing this.

Well, duh.

Seriously, Mr. One-Time-Poster. Duh. Duh.

Did your mother never suckle you as an infant or something, if so there's no need to take that out on me.

For instance a character with low CH might find Sulik sweating Vic over information about his sister, or maybe Myron offering Cassidy a Joint (killing him). Whereas a PC with high CH on the other hand might find Marcus lovingly sodomizing Lenny or something.

That sounds great. Let's do that in Fallout 3. Oh noes, more than a dog and another NPC is too hectic. And now you even want NPC-specific interaction? Do you have any idea how much of a hassle that would cause for the player?* Are you insane?

I was talking about RPG's in general and using Fo2 characters as an example

Hello by the way

Hi. You don't have to say hello when you post on a forum for the first time, though. So, you plan on posting again?

I was.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

So, you plan on posting again?

I was.

Haha, in before butthurt detected.