Fallout 4 Pre-Announcement Bullshit Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Hoaxmetal]

unless Bethesda learned lessons from New Vegas.

Depends on which game sold more. I know that New Vegas had better launch sales but after that, dunno.

And yeah, I have only Sawyer patch, better nights/sky, more areas addon and better ui mod - been playing it for days. Obsidian did great, especially considering the engine they had to work with, fuck da haters.

 

[sea]

My main problem with Fallout universe is that every new game goes little further in the future so at one point wasteland will cease being exactly that. While I see the reason of continuation of of the games I would prefer that games are set in the same time but following different characters in other parts of the country.

Except that Fallout 3 was a regression back to even sub-Fallout 1 levels of civilization, if anything.

RE: Fallout 4 and Bethesda - Bethesda have a lot of amazingly talented people. Their writing is shit and their respect for their franchises in recent years has been poor to say the least, but most of the problems come down to direction rather than ability.

 

[General Maxson]

That's bullshit guys, bethesda's going to publish another AAA hit, with a very high probability of game being dumbed down for "target audience". No way they are going to "regress" to New Vegas and actually improve the game. I am certain. If they could reduce their own franchise to Endurance, Magica and Health, and what, explorable world? Fallout is just waiting to be turned into shooter. Like it isn't already... People accepted and praised Skyrim, even though there was some unhappiness about removing the attributes, the new crowd will accept even that for Fallout and probably praise it. Remember, their market has probably grown up on Fallout 3, not the old ones. I hope I'm wrong, but I do not think so. So any hope I ever had for the future of gaming is dead. I am very happy to have at least W2 to look forward to though.

 

[shihonage]

Like I said before, they're going to merge franchises and come out with Elder Scrolls: Reign Of Fire: Fallout.

It is the only way to create the ultimate blockbuster.

 

[Sul]

Like I said before, they're going to merge franchises and come out with Elder Scrolls: Reign Of Fire: Fallout.

It is the only way to create the ultimate blockbuster.

Turns out the Godhead is a post-apoc mutant sleeping forever, meanwhile the Dwemer, through the use of the Elder Scrolls, managed to get out of the dream and build a post-apoc steampunk fantasy civilization where the player will have to participate on guar races to win a GECK (which are fragments of the Elder Scrolls all along) to help his Vault.

 

[markec]

My main problem with Fallout universe is that every new game goes little further in the future so at one point wasteland will cease being exactly that. While I see the reason of continuation of of the games I would prefer that games are set in the same time but following different characters in other parts of the country.

Except that Fallout 3 was a regression back to even sub-Fallout 1 levels of civilization, if anything.

RE: Fallout 4 and Bethesda - Bethesda have a lot of amazingly talented people. Their writing is shit and their respect for their franchises in recent years has been poor to say the least, but most of the problems come down to direction rather than ability.

They did regress with the level of organization the people were living, since every city had no more then ten people living in them, but I see that more of a engine limitation then design goal. Also the world of Fallout 3 felt nothing like an actual wasteland since you could not move ten meters without fighting somone.

I would not agree that they have any amazing talent, Oblivion had absolutely no redeeming features. Only good thing about Fallout 3 was very few semi decent quests and even they were plagued by poor writing and voice acting and Skyrim has some nice looking environment. So I dont see in what field Bethesda actually has talent.

 

[Achilles]

It could become a good game with 8GB of mods slapped on it.

My New Vegas doesn't have even 1gb of mods on it, but then again New Vegas is actually...

Whoa...

GOOD!

...for what it is. I very much enjoyed New Vegas but combat is not really that great.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

RE: Fallout 4 and Bethesda - Bethesda have a lot of amazingly talented people. Their writing is shit and their respect for their franchises in recent years has been poor to say the least, but most of the problems come down to direction rather than ability.

Bethesda: every single one game they've made, since their first attempts with Terminator FPPs, is known as 'buggy as hell' or just 'buggy'. Let's mercifully skip the writing quality and mediocre graphics, the core parts of bethesda games. So, what's left?

What exactly talents those people have, I don't even

 

[Bahamut]

What exactly talents those people have, I don't even

Selling shit in a paper is their tallent

 

[Infinitron]

I'm uncertain whether Bethesda has any special talents, or if they're simply the only company in the industry (other than Rockstar I guess) whose management/business model allows them to make these types of huge games that take years to develop.

What type of game would Bioware make if they were given a blank check for an open world experience and told to go to town?

 

[Ion Prothon II]

What type of game would Bioware make if they were given a blank check for an open world experience and told to go to town?

I heard we'll see this in Dragon Age 3

 

[Pablosdog]

I've hated on fallout 3 for so many years, I just...I'm dead inside.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

RE: Fallout 4 and Bethesda - Bethesda have a lot of amazingly talented people. Their writing is shit and their respect for their franchises in recent years has been poor to say the least, but most of the problems come down to direction rather than ability.

Bethesda: every single one game they've made, since their first attempts with Terminator FPPs, is known as 'buggy as hell' or just 'buggy'. Let's mercifully skip the writing quality and mediocre graphics, the core parts of bethesda games. So, what's left?

What exactly talents those people have, I don't even

Freeroaming world that allows for certain freedom in your actions? I guess that's what atracts more people to their games. Is not like there are many games that allow this. Shiny graphics (with crappy textures) help, and all the hype.

But yeah, TALENT! Specially the animators.

bethesda could make an AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA++++ version of QWOP and it will sell millions.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Bethpizda has many talended people in Marketing and PR departaments, also they don't catter to sexual deviants and animu furrfags the way Biopizda do, moreover their latest games are... playable, again unlike Bio offerings.

 

[sea]

I would not agree that they have any amazing talent, Oblivion had absolutely no redeeming features. Only good thing about Fallout 3 was very few semi decent quests and even they were plagued by poor writing and voice acting and Skyrim has some nice looking environment. So I dont see in what field Bethesda actually has talent.

The things that are good about Bethesda games, and which reveal their design talent, are kind of separate from what make a good RPG.

• Bethesda games are extremely well paced. They have their core combat/loot/etc. gameplay loop down to a T, on the micro level. On the wider structural level, their worlds are just the right size and have just the right amount of content to always make you want to go over that next hill, or poke your head in another dungeon.
• They create universal systems and mechanics that interact with each other in interesting ways. When the core gameplay loop fails, there is always something to do, whether it's talking to an NPC, picking a pocket, repairing gear, or just watching an emergent conflict between two monsters. In a big open-ended game, the benefit of all these variables interacting cannot be understated, and makes their worlds feel alive.
• They have an incredible eye for detail. Let's face it, Bethesda games are completely packed with detail in a way that most other games aren't, even much smaller games. This makes exploring their worlds fun; there's all sorts of little things you constantly run across. The amount of work involved in this can't be understated.
• I think their art department is very good. The intro to The Pitt, gazing across Skyrim or the Capital Wasteland for the first time, etc. are all moments that are going to be entrenched in my memory for a long time. Few other developers create such visually captivating scenes in-engine, and then lets you actually visit each and every thing you can see.
• Similarly, Bethesda have excellent environmental storytelling. Fallout 3 showed this off, both in its environment design and in smaller little moments. Their level designers have a very good grasp of how to imply events or create mood without any character saying a word.
• Finally, I think Bethesda are excellent at using level and scenario design as tools to educate the player about play mechanics. Take a look at the beginning of Skyrim or Fallout 3, or Morrowind for great examples of how the shape of the landscape, visual landmarks, roads and paths, and other level design devices work to lead the player around. Outside of the awful forced tutorial segments, pretty much all of their games have well-paced discovery of new mechanics that teaches players new game features and introduces new concepts in a way that feels like natural gameplay. In an open world setting, this is very hard to do, and Bethesda do it very well. Personally, I think this is one of the reasons games like Oblivion sell millions while Gothic etc. do not - Bethesda have a very keen understanding of how to intuitively structure gameplay without resorting to the same heavy-handed devices other developers do.

Yes, their writing sucks and their engine tech is awful, and oftentimes their games are badly balanced. As I said, as RPGs their games fail. But, a lot of the fundamentals of design any developer should know, Bethesda know very well and execute on. This is something that's not immediately obvious when playing their games, but it does not happen accidentally and is one of the hardest parts of creating a game to get right - to make everything "flow" in a way that keeps people coming back for dozens or even hundreds of hours. I don't know what kind of corporate culture they have, but I suspect it is one that emphasizes art and design over everything else.

 

[Necroscope]

Bethesda: every single one game they've made, since their first attempts with Terminator FPPs, is known as 'buggy as hell' or just 'buggy'. Let's mercifully skip the writing quality and mediocre graphics, the core parts of bethesda games. So, what's left?

Michael Kirkbride, though he left Beth during TESIII development. Dunno if I can count Jeremy Soule, considering the fact that he composed music for many games/companies.

Bethesda games are extremely well paced. They have their core combat/loot/etc. gameplay loop down to a T, on the micro level. On the wider structural level, their worlds are just the right size and have just the right amount of content to always make you want to go over that next hill, or poke your head in another dungeon.

WERE extremely well paced until Oblivion happened, since level scalling annihilated any fun of exploration and treasure hunting. Skyrim didn't introduce any radical changes to that. So what's the point of going "over that next hill", if over every hill you have the exact same loot on level X. After a little while it's like interactive National Geographic - running around and killing animals.

About their game worlds size. In Oblivion and FO3 major locations felt way too close to each other, even though I kinda liked FO3 desing. Obsidian did much better job in FONV by adding large deserted areas, so you finally feel like going the distance.

When the core gameplay loop fails, there is always something to do, whether it's talking to an NPC, picking a pocket, repairing gear, or just watching an emergent conflict between two monsters. In a big open-ended game, the benefit of all these variables interacting cannot be understated, and makes their worlds feel alive.

Non-existent AI, tons of bugs and shitty game mechanics pretty much ruins the pleasure of running around and doing things.

Few other developers create such visually captivating scenes in-engine, and then lets you actually visit each and every thing you can see.

Without solid and stable gameplay it's just a colossus on clay legs.

 

[EG]

. . . Ban Sea? o_O

 

[Phelot]

Eh... yeah I don't know how much I'd count pick pocketing or NPC interaction as fallbacks for when the exploration gets boring.

I will say that I think Skyrim was a major improvement over Oblivion, though it still has a lot to be desired and I doubt I'd ever bother going back to it like I do with Daggerfall or Morrowind.

The level scaling seemed much better in that there are challenges and I recall a few areas I couldn't immediately go to due to the monsters being there such as trolls, but the loot system is still garbage. It simply gets boring knowing you'll never find anything other than what meets your current level which takes a huge bite out of the thrill of exploring and looting locations. Get rid of that for fucks sake!

The extremely dumbed down character system is fine at this point, no one expects this company to make actual RPGs anymore so may as well stop acting like they do. Don't get me wrong, having fun leveling up was a big draw for their previous games, gone now of course. After awhile, I ran out of things to put points in in Skyrim making the whole level up experience boring and lackluster.

EDIT:

Finally, I think Bethesda are excellent at using level and scenario design as tools to educate the player about play mechanics. Take a look at the beginning of Skyrim or Fallout 3, or Morrowind for great examples of how the shape of the landscape, visual landmarks, roads and paths, and other level design devices work to lead the player around. Outside of the awful forced tutorial segments, pretty much all of their games have well-paced discovery of new mechanics that teaches players new game features and introduces new concepts in a way that feels like natural gameplay. In an open world setting, this is very hard to do, and Bethesda do it very well. Personally, I think this is one of the reasons games like Oblivion sell millions while Gothic etc. do not - Bethesda have a very keen understanding of how to intuitively structure gameplay without resorting to the same heavy-handed devices other developers do.

I'm not sure how this makes sense, though... They force you into a tutorial, but then afterward they are good at intuitively structuring gameplay? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but did they not resort to the same, tried and true, "PUSH WSAD TO MOVE" screen prompts?

 

[General Maxson]

Eh... yeah I don't know how much I'd count pick pocketing or NPC interaction as fallbacks for when the exploration gets boring.

I will say that I think Skyrim was a major improvement over Oblivion, though it still has a lot to be desired and I doubt I'd ever bother going back to it like I do with Daggerfall or Morrowind.

The level scaling seemed much better in that there are challenges and I recall a few areas I couldn't immediately go to due to the monsters being there such as trolls, but the loot system is still garbage. It simply gets boring knowing you'll never find anything other than what meets your current level which takes a huge bite out of the thrill of exploring and looting locations. Get rid of that for fucks sake!

The extremely dumbed down character system is fine at this point, no one expects this company to make actual RPGs anymore so may as well stop acting like they do. Don't get me wrong, having fun leveling up was a big draw for their previous games, gone now of course. After awhile, I ran out of things to put points in in Skyrim making the whole level up experience boring and lackluster.

EDIT:

Finally, I think Bethesda are excellent at using level and scenario design as tools to educate the player about play mechanics. Take a look at the beginning of Skyrim or Fallout 3, or Morrowind for great examples of how the shape of the landscape, visual landmarks, roads and paths, and other level design devices work to lead the player around. Outside of the awful forced tutorial segments, pretty much all of their games have well-paced discovery of new mechanics that teaches players new game features and introduces new concepts in a way that feels like natural gameplay. In an open world setting, this is very hard to do, and Bethesda do it very well. Personally, I think this is one of the reasons games like Oblivion sell millions while Gothic etc. do not - Bethesda have a very keen understanding of how to intuitively structure gameplay without resorting to the same heavy-handed devices other developers do.

I'm not sure how this makes sense, though... They force you into a tutorial, but then afterward they are good at intuitively structuring gameplay? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but did they not resort to the same, tried and true, "PUSH WSAD TO MOVE" screen prompts?

Yeah bro, but when they throw out stats from Fallout and make it utterly unrelated to the beloved crpgs of yesterday? Will no one ever produce real crpgs anymore, where you actually have stats? Or is everything gonna be like Diablo 3 or Skyrim? I can't believe nobody wants stats and interesting character development anymore, no matter how stupid these new gaming generations are. It's just fun to build character, but if it's so simplified like in those examples I mentioned, of course it's boring and pointless. Guess we'll have to go indie, or maybe kickstarter for our fix, and hope there will be good games. I shiver and shudder when I think that soon, we'll see a Fallout 4 teaser, and curse the thought how more dumbed down it will be. And who else we can turn towards? Obsidian maybe? I'm afraid they have to make games for the market and what publisher pays them to, and they seem on the brink of collapse. Bioware? I won't even comment on that. Who else? NO ONE.

 

[Phelot]

Well, yeah, unfortunately we probably will have to go indie for that, but there's some good stuff on the horizon and if they sell well then I see no reason not to see more.

Bethesda doesn't want to make RPGs anymore and they aren't going to. It sucks that they're dragging cool IPs in the mud like TES and FO, but we've raged about this stuff long enough, no?

 

[shihonage]

In Fallout 4, you will finally be able to romance your father.

 

[General Maxson]

In Fallout 4, you will finally be able to romance your father.

 

[Ion Prothon II]

I believe Bethesda will eventually abandon SPESHUL, making Fallout 4 very similar to Skyrim in terms of stats (or maybe rather: lack of stats). Larping audience won't shed a tear anyway, after all stats are just breaking teh immershun. And few months after the release, some guy bored with deathclaw sex mods will make a mod implementing stats once again, as it is now with Skyrim.

 

[sea]

WERE extremely well paced until Oblivion happened, since level scalling annihilated any fun of exploration and treasure hunting. Skyrim didn't introduce any radical changes to that. So what's the point of going "over that next hill", if over every hill you have the exact same loot on level X. After a little while it's like interactive National Geographic - running around and killing animals.

Oblivion was a gigantic fuck-up and everyone knows it - I don't know what went wrong and I won't speculate. Skyrim and Fallout 3 are far, far better this way, especially the latter, which I think actually had some pretty cool places to explore.

Non-existent AI, tons of bugs and shitty game mechanics pretty much ruins the pleasure of running around and doing things.

Again, I think you refer to Oblivion and to a degree Fallout 3. Skyrim is really not buggy at all, and even Fallout 3 was pretty good that way. They do have mediocre AI although I don't really know of any game with Bethesda-style scope that does any better. As to mechanics... which ones? Why are they shitty? I'm curious what you mean.

I think Bethesda games have huge problems with balance and personally I don't care for some of the choices - but I think it's also clear that, for a lot of people, these aren't issues. I'm speaking not so much in terms of "Bethesda making my personal dream RPG" but in making whatever particular brand of mainstream, mass-produced game they've set themselves on. They are creating a product for a particular demographic; it's just not most of us.

Let me be clear - I dislike Bethesda, the company, and the direction they have taken with their games and the properties they have adopted. I don't dislike the people, or doubt their ability to make the games they're set on making.

I'm not sure how this makes sense, though... They force you into a tutorial, but then afterward they are good at intuitively structuring gameplay? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but did they not resort to the same, tried and true, "PUSH WSAD TO MOVE" screen prompts?

Yeah, to be honest, it's a bit weird they do this, but they have to get the controls etc. out of the way and introduce their world and story. I'm referring to things past the fundamentals though. Let's consider the opening to Skyrim:

1. You get out of the dungeon with your companion of choice and are immediately presented with a huge, beautiful landscape. However, in the distance, Bleak Falls Barrow and the mountain it sits on are clearly visible, giving an intuitive first goal to reach.
2. Following the road, the player can either go off on his or her own, or speak to his/her companion for more background. Along the way, the companion will give info on more game mechanics and comment on new features introduced along the way to Riverwood. He'll also help the player with a scripted combat encounter against some wolves.
3. Down the path, there are a few things of interest - brightly-coloured herbs immediately on the side of the road to pick (which are fundamentals for mana and health potions), a few extra detours leading into the wilderness and to a couple of smaller optional dungeons, like a bandit lair, the aforementioned wolf encounter (players will kill the wolves and take their pelts and meat, introducing the components of crafting and cooking), etc.
4. The Guardian Stones appear directly on the path. Here the player can choose an archetype to follow that almost any player will want to adhere to - thief, mage or fighter. The player's companion will comment on these and give advice if present.
5. There's a lot of pretty scenery, including waterfalls and rivers. These are clearly placed for visual appeal/tech fetish, but are also, just like roads, extremely useful ways of guiding players.
6. Finally, in Riverwood, the player is presented with a few new pieces of gameplay: a small side-quest to gain a permanent companion, a non-intrusive crafting tutorial, information on the main plot and next destination (Whiterun), and the dungeon crawl at the foreshadowed Bleak Falls Barrow. All of these introduce unique elements of gameplay and let the player grow comfortable with them in a safe environment.
7. A quick mention of Bleak Falls Barrow: it introduces the claws, a recurring theme throughout the game, the matching puzzles, draugr and other mainstays. It is more structured and scripted than other dungeons, in order to give the player the intended learning experience that prepares him/her for other dungeons. I would not be surprised if over half of all players completed Bleak Falls Barrow without being told to do so later on in the main quest. Those that do complete it early get a small congratulations from the game and validation for their decision to explore rather than follow the main quest blindly, and the game continues to reward this behaviour with incidental quests to be found, like the Rebel's Cairn/Red Eagle or Gauldur Legend.
8. There are other things to note, like the switch to snow while climbing the nearby mountain (visual prons for fans) and optional encounters with bandits for extra loot and a cool lookout point to survey the world. The road to Whiterun from Riverwood takes the training wheels off a little by providing a more open, grassland-type area that clearly shows the destination, but also encourages more exploration and free-form play.
9. A lot of rewards in Skyrim, like other Bethesda games, are visual - nice scenery to admire that serves as a reward for completing minor goals - and they are used to good effect here, subtly encouraging the player follow the intended path while not outright explicitly stating anything except for in dialogue with other NPCs.

I can't say if this is all accomplished better than Morrowind (which I also did a similar analysis of), but it all works well to guide the player in a non-intrusive fashion. This sort of thing has been done effectively as far back as Super Mario Bros., right down to, say, relative sizes and orientations of characters and objects during the opening level, and Bethesda show a keen awareness of how they can use visuals and level design as teaching tools. This is not something all, or even most developers know how to do, or do well, especially when talking about RPGs.

 

[shihonage]

Wake me up when Bethesda figures out how to make non-teleporting doors.