Fallout 4 Pre-Release Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Drax]

Caesar's Legion was the obvious bad guy in NV. You simply had the choice to join the bad guys if you wanted.

There is not good guys and bad guys in New vegas. All the factions have their good and bad points. The NCR defends the democracy but it has extremely high taxation who nobody can pay. House is a dictator who nobody knows which are his true intentions. Caesar legion is an imperium, very radical but they have the idea of unity and they are very strong. And the free way of the game depends of what the player wants.

Yes, all sides have their flaws but Caesar's Legion is clearly the bad guy. Sorry, it's not even close. The cut content is a valid critique but as it stands in the game, it's not open to interpretation.

No, they were cruel and authoritarian. If your character was aligned with that morality, they were his good guys.

Again, you're reading into things that aren't there in the primary material. You can E-Larp and bend things to fit that perspective but the way the game is objectively presented portrays the Legion as the clear bad guys.

Caesar's Legion kept the roads safe for traders and travellers. Neither NCR nor House could do that.

Mussolini kept the trains running.

Maybe we're using differnent meaning of the phrase "good guys/bad guys".
I mean it in the more profound American Way. You can't agree with the Enclave in FO3, you can't ally with Herma mora in TES V, etc... "The good guy" means "those that share my values".
Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Osama, all of them were "the good guys" for sizeable numbers of morons.

 

[Ultra]

Authoritanism appeals to pathetic beta nerds (second only to a jumped up technocrat who fancies himself a benevolent dictator nvm filling peoples homes in with concrete) what a shocker. If your house is surrounded by people nailed to crosses then yeah you're probably 'the bad guy'.

 

[Metro]

It's like people debating the 'evils' of corrupt powers like AmeriKWA versus ISIS.

It's interesting that Obsidian's lack of development time sort of inadvertently drove the player in that direction. You didn't get to ever visit Legion-held territory outside of military areas, so over the course of the entire game, the NCR was the only "occupying power" you saw. In the player's eye, only NCR troops ever had to suppress natives and tribes, only NCR troops ever looked like invaders in a land not their own. Development scope management as media bias?

It was an obvious parody/commentary of the Afghan/Iraq occupation. The Legion, I think, were originally only intended as antagonists. Otherwise you'd think NCR and Legion development would have occurred simultaneously so any kind of 'trimming' would effect both sides equally as opposed to shorting one almost entirely.

I mean it in the more profound American Way. You can't agree with the Enclave in FO3, you can't ally with Herma mora in TES V, etc... "The good guy" means "those that share my values".
Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Osama, all of them were "the good guys" for sizeable numbers of morons.

I mentioned that. Everyone is someone's good guy. Everything is relative. Everything. But you can't have much meaningful discussion making everything relative. I'm talking about the commonly understand definition: white hat/black hat.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

I chose sides based on intent. NCR and Legion both had same intent- to conquer and increase their own power and influence. House wanted to create his own small dominion and rule fairly over a small population and provide the comfort and happiness of the old world- even if it was just an illusion. In doing so, House was able to maintain his small kingdom, and wanted to groom the PC to continue his vision as time went on.

 

[KevinV12000]

It's like people debating the 'evils' of corrupt powers like AmeriKWA versus ISIS. And yet all of you would opt to side/live in the US/other corrupt and decadent western democracies over the Caliphate. You can split all the rhetorical hairs you want but the Legion is clearly more 'evil' assuming a traditional understanding of the word.

Spot on. Imprerfect democratic state vs Shaira law, harsh, but law nonetheless. Which is better and why?

Such choice. Very hard. Wow.

You are making the standard liberal and modern error to equate "authoritarian" with violent evil.

 

[Metro]

I chose sides based on intent. NCR and Legion both had same intent- to conquer and increase their own power and influence. House wanted to create his own small dominion and rule fairly over a small population and provide the comfort and happiness of the old world- even if it was just an illusion. In doing so, House was able to maintain his small kingdom, and wanted to groom the PC to continue his vision as time went on.

I don't disagree. House is probably the best choice in terms of the society most of us would want to live in today. My only point in arguing this is people who try desperately to portray New Vegas as not having any clear bad guys. It does. And as I said originally, that you're given the choice to join them doesn't mean they aren't the bad guys. It just means you choose to be one of them.

 

[28.8bps Modem]

It's arguments like these that made me choose Mr. House.

Kif, what makes a man turn neutral?

 

[Drax]

I mean it in the more profound American Way. You can't agree with the Enclave in FO3, you can't ally with Herma mora in TES V, etc... "The good guy" means "those that share my values".
Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Osama, all of them were "the good guys" for sizeable numbers of morons.

I mentioned that. Everyone is someone's good guy. Everything is relative. Everything. But you can't have much meaningful discussion making everything relative. I'm talking about the commonly understand definition: white hat/black hat.

But that's how the world works, and that's why NV feels much more authentic. Black and white predetermined morality lies more in the "Epic Fantasy" genre, not the "Post-Apocaliptic".

For the record, my true alignment would be with them Followers hippies. Decent folk.

 

[Metro]

It's like people debating the 'evils' of corrupt powers like AmeriKWA versus ISIS. And yet all of you would opt to side/live in the US/other corrupt and decadent western democracies over the Caliphate. You can split all the rhetorical hairs you want but the Legion is clearly more 'evil' assuming a traditional understanding of the word.

Spot on. Imprerfect democratic state vs Shaira law, harsh, but law nonetheless. Which is better and why?

Such choice. Very hard. Wow.

You are making the standard liberal and modern error to equate "authoritarian" with violent evil.

Crucifying people, and not just criminals, is fairly 'evil' by my standards (or any rational person's standards for that matter). The Legion massacred nearly everyone in Nipton. Pretty sure they weren't all criminals.

(In b4 'Bitter Springs.')

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

I chose sides based on intent. NCR and Legion both had same intent- to conquer and increase their own power and influence. House wanted to create his own small dominion and rule fairly over a small population and provide the comfort and happiness of the old world- even if it was just an illusion. In doing so, House was able to maintain his small kingdom, and wanted to groom the PC to continue his vision as time went on.

I don't disagree. House is probably the best choice in terms of the society most of us would want to live in today. My only point in arguing this is people who try desperately to portray New Vegas as not having any clear bad guys. It does. And as I said originally, that you're given the choice to join them doesn't mean they aren't the bad guys. It just means you choose to be one of them.

On the surface it certainly seems that way, but once you dive more into backstories, lore, sidequests, etc. my thought is that who is bad vs. good was supposed to be very muddled.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

I mean it in the more profound American Way. You can't agree with the Enclave in FO3, you can't ally with Herma mora in TES V, etc... "The good guy" means "those that share my values".
Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Osama, all of them were "the good guys" for sizeable numbers of morons.

I mentioned that. Everyone is someone's good guy. Everything is relative. Everything. But you can't have much meaningful discussion making everything relative. I'm talking about the commonly understand definition: white hat/black hat.

But that's how the world works, and that's why NV feels much more authentic. Black and white predetermined morality lies more in the "Epic Fantasy" genre, not the "Post-Apocaliptic".

For the record, my true alignment would be with them Followers hippies. Decent folk.

Unrealistic tho, without an actual plan on how to develop the wasteland. They were the "Occupy Wallstreet" movement of the wastes.

 

[Metro]

It was supposed to be but, for the fifth time, since the Legion content was cut you can't make that assertion based on what's actually in the game.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

It's like people debating the 'evils' of corrupt powers like AmeriKWA versus ISIS. And yet all of you would opt to side/live in the US/other corrupt and decadent western democracies over the Caliphate. You can split all the rhetorical hairs you want but the Legion is clearly more 'evil' assuming a traditional understanding of the word.

Spot on. Imprerfect democratic state vs Shaira law, harsh, but law nonetheless. Which is better and why?

Such choice. Very hard. Wow.

You are making the standard liberal and modern error to equate "authoritarian" with violent evil.

Crucifying people, and not just criminals, is fairly 'evil' by my standards (or any rational person's standards for that matter). The Legion massacred nearly everyone in Nipton. Pretty sure they weren't all criminals.

(In b4 'Bitter Springs.')

Nipton was pretty fucked up. It had been completely taken over by powder gangers who wanted to massacre NCR troops visiting the prostitutes. And the NCR troops were partaking in activities outlawed by Caesar. By their perspective, Nipton was a festering den of iniquity.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

It was supposed to be but, for the fifth time, since the Legion content was cut you can't make that assertion based on what's actually in the game.

Have you ever played a character that supported the legion?

 

[Catfish]

Again, no. It isn't. You can twist things and qualify them to make it a matter of opinion but it really isn't. So one side has corrupt politicians and fighting an arguably unnecessary war and yadda yadda. The other crucifies and decimates people on a whim. Your real life analogy reinforces it since you said they aren't nice people. What is nice? What is good? What is evil. You can split the onion until there are no more layers left. There are widely understood definitions of those words and the Legion is clearly a bunch of 'not nice' people who lean heavily towards the 'evil' spectrum.

Well, "not nice" from my perspective, or yours, yes. But put enough people of the type I described above together (as in, imagine they are the majority) - the center of the axis shifts, and suddenly you are in the wrong. The point I am trying to make is that it is legitimately possible to unquestionably side with Caesar, given that certain perspective on the matters in which the Legion and NCR differ. There is sort of a meme in the russian-speaking internet: "Only mass executions will save the Motherland", and, though it is mainly used as a way of mocking this viewpoint, some people (sadly it seems - the majority, nowadays) really feel that way. And, they would hastily point out that the people on the crosses in Nipton are powder-gangers, Legion-controlled territories are, indeed, safe from raiders and the like, and Caesar rules with a "strong hand" (another commonly used expression in my part of the world).

The bottomline is that this entire conflict depicted in NV is a clash of very real ideologies, and that is one of the many reasons NV is a work of art, while FO3 is a turd in a puddle.

However, I do agree with you in that the Legion is much worse news than NCR, again, this is a matter of our general way of thinking and personal morality, not an objective truth.

 

[Metro]

Anyway, why all this arguing when we can all agree Fallout 4 is 10/10 GOTY 2015. I will write a glorious review.

 

[Metro]

It was supposed to be but, for the fifth time, since the Legion content was cut you can't make that assertion based on what's actually in the game.

Have you ever played a character that supported the legion?

Yes. And most of the shit they do is pretty bad.

 

[baturinsky]

I'd probably side with House if not for his insistendce of razing BoS

 

[KevinV12000]

@ Metro -

Sorry, I'm not being clear.

I agree with you that AS PRESENTED in the game, Caesar's Legion is irredeemably evil, and any good they do is incidental and not by choice.

What I was saying is that had Obsidian been a little more imaginative in creating the Legion, and presented it somewhat differently, then it would have been a more difficult choice. For example, crucifying as a terror tactic is evil. Crucifying caravan raiders, on the other hand, is defensible given the lives and the fragile communities dependent on that trade. Etc.

I agree with you about the actual situation in game. I've finished the game for House and did one NCR version for fun, but I've never done it with Legion.

 

[Metro]

'kay, I will hug you now.

Nipton was pretty fucked up. It had been completely taken over by powder gangers who wanted to massacre NCR troops visiting the prostitutes. And the NCR troops were partaking in activities outlawed by Caesar. By their perspective, Nipton was a festering den of iniquity.

So, let's say half the town was corrupt (which it probably wasn't), that means it's cool beans to murder the other half? Nah. They're evil, bro. Just admit it.

 

[bonescraper]

It's like people debating the 'evils' of corrupt powers like AmeriKWA versus ISIS. And yet all of you would opt to side/live in the US/other corrupt and decadent western democracies over the Caliphate. You can split all the rhetorical hairs you want but the Legion is clearly more 'evil' assuming a traditional understanding of the word.

Spot on. Imprerfect democratic state vs Shaira law, harsh, but law nonetheless. Which is better and why?

Such choice. Very hard. Wow.

You are making the standard liberal and modern error to equate "authoritarian" with violent evil.

K, sure. Crucifixion is love. Crucifixion is life.

Extremely NSFW.

Spoiler

Enjoy your autoritarian order.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Want some irradiated pizza?

 

[Night Goat]

Want some irradiated pizza?

crojipjip

 

[abnaxus]

Fallout: New Nantucket

 

[Metro]

Well the good news for FO4 is I can't see the Institute being that 'EBILZZZ!' Sure Massholes can be annoying with their parking of cahhs in Haaahvaaad yaaaaahd and their penchant for donuts but not ebilz.