Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Fallout Fallout: Sonora - new Fallout mod from the Fallout: Nevada team - now available in Russian

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Fenix Cipher Vatnik

    Fenix
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,926
    Location:
    Russia atchoum!
    I wasn;'t talking about skillchecks of any kind, I was talking about simple solutions being bad.
    That's how it happen in life. ANd that's what I talked about
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    You see guy harassing girl on the street. You:
    - walk away. Nothing happens to you.
    - decide to help the girl. Suddenly, guy pulls out the knife. Then, it's either you end up in emergency with multiple knife wounds, or guy goes down and you end up in court.

    Good solutions usually bring even more problems on your head. Not a single good deed will be left unpunished, as saying goes
     
    ^ Top  
  3. Fenix Cipher Vatnik

    Fenix
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,926
    Location:
    Russia atchoum!
    ...And later you found out it was your sister, whom you never seen before, who was raped and killed.
    Yes sure.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    Nope. I know numerous stories when guy decided to play good Samaritan and ended up in big trouble. Either with injuries, or in court. Often after harassed girl in question filled the suit against the helper because the assailant was her boyfriend
     
    • Yes Yes x 2
    ^ Top  
  5. Wunderbar Arcane

    Wunderbar
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,687
    Aw fuck, i've just realized that two-handed rifles and shotguns are Big guns now. Going to restart, three towns in :negative:
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Despair Despair x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Horvatii Educated

    Horvatii
    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    137
    If you tagged Small guns but didnt spend like 150 skill points in it, there is no need. You are going for Energy anyway. If you have 10 Per/Int there is no need to do anything.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. blessed king of longing Novice

    blessed king of longing
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2019
    Messages:
    24
    any news on the translation?
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Wunderbar Arcane

    Wunderbar
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,687
    i've restarted anyway, small guns aside i've made another mistake of not investing enough skillpoints into repair and science.
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    Oh boy, I got to finally play Sonora now! So far:

    - C&C is still here. Rescue your people and you will have them go back to the Villa, which would be repopulated with time. Killing slavers in Flagpull turns the town into shit very quickly.
    - fixed Reputation, which, if you remember, was completely broken in F2.
    - level reactivity. You can use science on various signs and monuments, you can light up oil-lamps to reduce darkness penalty, and so on. Some people ask for food or drinks before talking, and being a good doctor is still viable.
    - reworked combat. Now it's a little bit harder, ammo is scarcer and more expensive. Most animals and robots are buffed. It's way easier to receive crippling injury now. Still, little bit of stealth and smart use of environment makes 1 vs 10 fights quite doable.
    - new visual stuff is awesome. Talking heads and new objects, some of them animated, various pieces of scenery. This Berezin guy done a good job while keeping to original style. That's some quality shit right here.
    - writing is better: it's doesn't try to be as bombastic as F2 or Nevada. There's significantly less various references and stupid jokes. Nothing outstanding, but almost no cringe.

    Kek stuff:

    - as I was ready to left the Villa, I hit lvl 3. And what do I see among perk selection? One that opens up the entire map for you. Of course I picked it, looked at map, reloaded and picked quick pockets instead.
    - exploring the cities I noticed how much weapons, ammo and armour is stocked in slightly locked/not locked at all containers. Missionary camp in San-Bramin is the good example of this. Obvious metagamey stuff.
    - as I sided with rangers in San-Bramin, there was a big fight against missionaries. I died, again and again, for this tribal guys are complete trash and this stupid ranger keeps hitting our guys instead of enemies. I went alone, wasted all missionaries, and it was way easier than collective fight. Go figure. Game failed to react for this John McClane stuff, though.
    - Aaron fight in Phoenix Cathedral. Hell no I will go with you, mate, this is RPG after all, I have my choice. Couple of Psycho, several reloads, bursting all around and here I stand knee deep in the dead. No way to know the exact location of this southern city, though.

    I'm playing high PER low luck one-hander build, small guns now and energy guns later. Quite doable for now, and I sell all this rifles and ammo for them for a good price.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • nice nice x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Jedi Master Radek Arcane

    Jedi Master Radek
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2013
    Messages:
    3,079
    Keeping up with a spirit of the original, I see.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    ^ Top  
  11. Fenix Cipher Vatnik

    Fenix
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,926
    Location:
    Russia atchoum!
    Imagine, that I did it with unarmed.
    The only cheating was preplacement plastid before the fight near boss.

    Also used plastid for challange fight with robot at the factory in the Garage City with first build that used energy weapon.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Wunderbar Arcane

    Wunderbar
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,687
    Tbh i kinda agree with most of criticizm expressed in this thread. Sonora is polished, balanced and "professionally-made", but at the same it's kinda bland, derivative and formulaic.

    The first town you visit is Junktown clone, Flagstaff is Hub/Redding hybrid (except with slavery), Phoenix is Boneyard mixed with the Cathedral, Rangers are basically Wind of War jarheads from Nevada, Road warriors are basically Bikers from Nevada. Remember all these marvelous skill interactions from Nevada? They are gone for the most part, now you're just investing into repair and science and press the win button. Adventure elements from Nevada were streamlined and became formulaic - now every town you visit has a token wounded guy you heal with a doctor skill or a consumable (stimpak), computers can be hacked with a consumable (deus ex multitool), locks can be picked with a consumable (lockpick), broken stuff can be repaired with a consumable (metal scrap and electronic parts), etc. Sometimes you find rare items of yore which can be used in quests as an alternative path (for example, atomic wristwatches can be used to get access to Tucson tinmen, music box can be gifted to a kid in Casa Grande who in exchange will show you the location of valuable loot), but such interactions are rare. Literally every quest can be solved in a pacifistic way which is kind of ridiculous (even the conflict with a tribe of murderous cannibalistic savages can be solved peacefully).

    The story is handled better than in Nevada, but it's kinda bland and can be described as "slavery is bad, but not really; being a raider is bad, but not really; in the end nothing is good or bad". As someone have already mentioned in this thread, it's like a Sawyeristic approach to storytelling - nothing stands out when everything is shade of grey. Slavers are bad because they are slavers, but at the same time they are helping in rebuilding the civilization with the stuff they mine. Cultists are bad because they are cultists, but at the same time they are helping rebuilding the civilization by spreading the knowledge and literacy. Tucson tinmen are bad because they are deranged Adeptus Mechanicus cyborgs who use slavery for their creepy experiments, but at the same time they help rebuilding civilization with their bleeding edge technology. Rangers are bad because they are robbing farmers by collecting a protection toll, but at the same time they are defending them from raiders. Even the cannibals aren't that bad and your fellow villagers aren't that good. Ffs, just point me at the bad guy and let me murder him without feeling guilty.

    Now, there's still some good stuff here. I really liked Tucson tinmen (they should've been the main antagonists instead of BoS), San Brahmin "Buried city" dungeon was great, power curve is steeper than in Nevada, shortage of ammo forces you to be inventive instead of just shooting people in the eyes with your favorite gun. The main theme "technology and progress vs humanity" is interesting in concept, but could've been handled better.

    Overall i'd put it somewhere between Nevada and Resurrection. Most of my complaints stem from Sonora being not as good as Nevada, so if you haven't played Nevada then you will like Sonora more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020 at 5:44 AM
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Salute Salute x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    I don't know, mate, it's like asking for more decline. We already have too much stories with banal good/evil dichotomy. Let's look at three most common types of antagonists:

    - "I'm evil just because I am! Lemme do my evil deeds! Muhaha!" Most blatant and immature one, though still the most common one.

    - "Noble goals, but unsound methods". Master from F1, Kerghan from Arcanum. Is better, for indeed, the guy wants to do the right thing, but with the most outrageous methods. Yes, Kerghan, life is pain, but killing everyone is not the best solution. Drugs are better.

    - "No clearly defined bad guy". The most complex one. People have their methods, their causes, and maybe you don't like it or see it as bad, but there's still reason and merit behind it, and for some people it's the best alternative. Planescape, FNV, and yes, Sonora. Mercykillers in Planescape: they're lawful good, they fight for order. Is it good? They fight evil, but they know no mercy, no compassion. Guy stole some food for his starving family: does he deserves some slack? No, he's criminal, he should die! Legion in FNV: are they bad? Well, they have order and maintain it. No crime, no drug abuse, higher moral values and stuff. They still crucify people, though. There's no good or bad, there's just different sides.

    It is possible to become the main villain of the Sonora: just do best for your people. Kill Lucas and Garage City will wither. Kill slavers and Flagstaff will succumb to crime. Kill Aaron and Fireworshippers will disappear with all their knowledge. Aid ZAX and Tinmen will be done for good. You could fuck up the entire Sonora region just to provide the safety of your small backward village. But you're still hero there, innit?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020 at 6:48 AM
    ^ Top  
  14. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    I disagree here too. Towns are different.

    Junktown is small and friendly city that lives only because of the casino and people coming for it. Gizmo is not the best guy around, but remove him and the city will die eventually.
    Garage City lives because of the scavenging. But there's no stuff for scavenging left and city is dying now. Help rebellious Lucas and city will prosper with the working factory. Unlike Junktown, it's possible to find compromise between the two sides.
    Flagstaff gives me no Hub or Redding vibes whatsoever. Redding is literally Wild West town thrown into Fallout universe for some reason. Hub is the town of traders. Flagstaff is build around slavers: they provide workforce for mines, they maintain order and law in the city. Remove slavers and city will turn into actual second Den. Dual meaning of slavery is already explored in Fallout universe: see Vault City for reference.
    Guys from Wind of War basically sit around and do they soldier stuff, moonlighting as raiders because of boredom.
    Rangers have purpose: maintaining the law around. Yes, they protect, but the price for their protection is high. They're definitely no "paragons of virtue" that do good just because it's good: their actions have downsides.
    Boneyard is filled with various groups that rarely interact with each other: Gun Runners just sell their stuff, Followers of the Apocalypse are about Enlightening and stuff, Children of the Cathedral stay to the side, and the main conflict is between corrupt Regulators and bumlike Blades.
    Phoenix is built around Fireworshippers, who provide education, healthcare and lawfulness, with other factions aside. Ghouls maintain the power station, thugs are there as long as they are useful to Fireworshippers, bums live there because nobody cares. Boneyard has no main power, Phoenix is built around cultists.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Wunderbar Arcane

    Wunderbar
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2015
    Messages:
    3,687
    literally every character or faction is morally ambiguous, and all of them are ambiguous in the exact same way. They all have the same excuse, same gimmick.

    I've seen that before somewhere, can't put my finger on it...
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    Because this makes sense. If you have people who are immune to radiation, why not have them maintaining the nuclear station? It's like having people with gills and using them for diving operations - perfectly logical.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Daedalos Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Daedalos
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Messages:
    4,630
    Location:
    Denmark
    Gibi translation for dis pl0x
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Fabulously Optimistic Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    • Old Old x 1
    • Bad Spelling Bad Spelling x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. Ol' Willy Learned

    Ol' Willy
    Joined:
    May 3, 2020
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    In your head
    I'm in late game now (I'm really taking my time here) and I want to disagree with some of the critics considering Sonora' story and setting. Yes, it's not Planescape, but as far as your typical post-apo goes it's quite decent.

    Villa. The place of your people was founded by a technophobic fella who escaped from one of the Vaults with some people and GECK. Often in the game people would comment on your place, like "How do you people manage to grow anything in those wates?" GECK! What and irony, all this happy little technophobic paradise wouldn't be possible without the finest pre-war technology.

    You char is a simple hick who spent all his life cultivating maize and shoveling bramin shit. Leaving Villa you encounter the life outside your small and simple word. Akin to the beginning of Fallout 1, but when Vault Dweller was leaving clean and safe Vault, only to encounter that there is actually life in the Wastes, Peasant discovers life in ruined cities and small communities, with all the marvels of pre-war technology. Maybe dying from appendicitis or pneumonia in early thirties is not so unavoidable as it was at Villa? Maybe motorcycle is better than running around?

    One of the main themes of the game is technical progress and the price of it. Yes, maybe you enjoy your simple tribal lifestyle, but it can't go on forever. Diseases, mutations, mutants, raiders, droughts - one of the characters in the game notes, how he seen entire community going crazy just because it's only water-pump was broken. There's a fine example of how too much isolation can degrade people: Jackals, cannibalistic tribe. But progress doesn't come for free: you had to abandon your old lifestyle, and someone has to work to maintain it. Someone has to mine Uranium, someone has to scavenge the ruins, and there's a plenty of risk doing that.

    So, game really nudges you towards accepting the progress. You're not alone: one of your fellow villagers finds himself at home working for Tinmen. He doesn't want to go back. Or, of course, you can keep to your idealistic retrograde lifestyle: hard work, family values, strong sense of collective. But mind you, all of this is very fragile. One drought, one raid, and all is gone. You can get a protection from Rangers: just pay them with food and recruits. But this choice is as good as losing any independence whatsoever.

    Later, during the Villa meeting you presented a choice. Garage City has old factory in good condition. This factory is ripe for relaunching and city could become a small industrial center, a second chance to this dying city. Your elders propose to you to destroy it and kill all hopes for local population just to keep Villa safe. Same proposition goes for Uranium mines in Flagstaff, thereby severely disrupting local power source balance. What, all ore is has to be bought from Redding now?

    Well, of course, some more professional writers, like our beloved Chrissy or Timmy, would have executed this premise better, but they have no access to the franchise for it was engulfed by darkness and mediocrity. Yes, you could point out similar examples, like struggle between magic and technology in Arcanum, but, frankly, Arcanum suffers from ludonarative dissonance way more than Sonora. You keep hearing stories how magic is obsolete while magic being the most OP thing in the game.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Pope Amole II Prestigious Gentleman Nerd Commando Game Studios Developer

    Pope Amole II
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,017
    The author has said from the very inception of this project that Sonora is a smaller, shorter game and that it will not be as ambitious as Nevada. For quite a lesser amount of effort being put in, it's as good as it could've gotten.
     
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.