First person is not more immersive than Third person view

[SkiNNyBane]

Perspective has nothing to do with immersion.

Oh Cool, I'm going to make a 40 hour long RPG but stick the camera in the corner of the world behind a mountain. Have fun.

What a retarded statement.
Perspective is huge.. It gives scale and context to everything around you.
A game can make or break on camera.

Whatever place you crawled into here from, go back.

I am very smart. I argue against things no one is saying.

 

[SkiNNyBane]

IMO the book example perfectly illustrates how little perspective has to do with immersion. There are fuck ton of immersive isometric games and fuck ton of completely unimmersive fpp games. Immersion has to do with empathy, captivating your imagination, forgetting yourself in the atmosphere and worldbuilding, etc... Sure perspective can play a role in creating that effect but is largely irrelevant. People arguing otherwise are tunnel visioning on the most simplistic aspect of it.

To me ammo being dropped in doom 2016 precisely when you are low on that specific ammo is a perfect example of an immersion breaking mechanic. Seeing it happen is sort of like seeing through the matrix (the algorithms behind the game). There are numerous unrelated examples of immersion breaking aspects of games and almost all of them have nothing to do with perspective.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

But you cannot have something that plays like games that need complex and precise way to interact with the environment, like Amnesia and Soma, in TPP.
...
This means that FPP inherently allow more complex interactions than TPP.

Despite all the shit they have and how little they make use of the "grab" action, Betheseda's game prove that you can have that level of interactivity in TPP.
But again that was not what I was trying to say, that's why I didn't mention interactions. I said TPP allows you to control the PC movements in a more precise manner, which does facilitate more intricate inputs.

Furthermore, usually TPP games can be played easily with simple controllers

They can also be easily played with kb+m, if the devs actually put a little effort into it. But unfortonately for the most part they would rather do shoddy ports.

 

[ItsChon]

Both are shit, isometric is the only way to go. Anyone that says otherwise can get fucked.

And what are these immersive qualities of isometric?

What is the definition of immersion? To have a deep, mental involvement with whatever it is that you're doing. Books and movies can both be heavily immersive, despite the fact that the person watching or reading has no way to effect how the story progresses. The same thing applies to games in the sense that you can be immersed in a game regardless of whether or not it's first person, third person, isometric, etc. So what are the immersive qualities of isometric view?

It's not complete shit, like first person and third person.

 

[undecaf]

I don’t think perspective really matters much at all. The ”immersion” - for me, at least - usually comes from other qualities entirely. Like gameplay mechanisms and systems (first and foremost), world and quest design, and other such things that occupy my attention. Perspective is rather immaterial at the face of everything else.

 

[Cross]

FPP is not inherently more immersive except in the most simplistic sense: "it is as though I'm looking through the character's eyes". There's nothing wrong with the argument but it's incomplete. It works fine for viewing things, but is limited for interacting with an environment or other characters.

This is completely backwards. The biggest advantage of first-person is precisely that it makes it far easier to interact with things. To compare two stealth games, in Thief I can simply move the mouse and look at any object or character and directly interact with it. In Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, I have to access a drop-down menu and scroll down it to to do things like pick up a soda can to throw as a distraction or crawl into a vent. The third-person view in Splinter Cell also means that often I wouldn't even have noticed that soda can to pick up or that vent to crawl in if it wasn't for the drop-down menu informing me, due to a combination of the camera not being at the right angle/distance and the character standing in front of the thing in question and obstructing it from view.

 

[Tigranes]

Camera perspective doesn't give you immersion

The game being good gives you immersion

duh

 

[Naraya]

Camera perspective doesn't give you immersion

The game being good gives you immersion

duh

How DARE you bring sense to this discussion?!

 

[Necroscope]

"Immersion" is a term that I associate mostly with guys playing bare-assed chicks in Bethesda games for some reason, a term that I don't even remember being in use back in the day.

Anyway, I find perspective to be of lesser importance in terms of... uh, immersion. Much more important in order for me to feel like I'm actually playing a character are the choices I'm given and mechanics that take advantage and disadvantage of my alter-ego. That said, I'm not a fan of FPP in RPGs as I like seeing my character and my newly acquired armor.

 

[Metronome]

I've been thinking...
Let's say you're playing a first person game and your guy is wearing a medieval helmet.
For the sake of immersion should we all be playing the game looking through a tiny slit?

 

[tritosine2k]

In 1965, researcher Sutherland published in proceedings of IFIP congress, the key concepts of immersion in a simulated world

Feel free to coin your own game buzzword bros, that one's kinda taken.

 

[Harthwain]

Camera perspective doesn't give you immersion

The game being good gives you immersion

duh

Actually, both the camera perspective and the game mechanics can provide a degree of immersion.

 

[DalekFlay]

But again that was not what I was trying to say, that's why I didn't mention interactions. I said TPP allows you to control the PC movements in a more precise manner, which does facilitate more intricate inputs.

There is no more precise manner of movement than first-person with mouse-aim. You go exactly where you want to go, with incredible nuance. The reason TPP is better for certain genres like platformers is because of better situational awareness, i.e. seeing more of what is around you in an unrealistic fashion. The topic being about immersion, I think that's an important distinction to make.

 

[Viata]

I've been thinking...
Let's say you're playing a first person game and your guy is wearing a medieval helmet.
For the sake of immersion should we all be playing the game looking through a tiny slit?

Not only that, but you should also be wearing a medieval helmet. To be totally immersed, you should also feel the same as your character.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

IMO the book example perfectly illustrates how little perspective has to do with immersion.

By the way, TPP and FPP apply to the books too. Although in that case, since we do not directly control the main character, the role of the perspective can be different.
TPP and FPP applies to movies too. Think for example the famous shower scene from the Psyco movie. Hitchcock was one of the first directors to show an assassination from the point of view of the killer in FPP. In this case the fact that in FPP we don't see the killer, but only the victim, has an huge effect.

 

[Nano]

The FPP supremacists are annoying me. Both FPP and TPP have a place in video games, let things be.

 

[octavius]

I've been thinking...
Let's say you're playing a first person game and your guy is wearing a medieval helmet.
For the sake of immersion should we all be playing the game looking through a tiny slit?

Not only that, but you should also be wearing a medieval helmet. To be totally immersed, you should also feel the same as your character.

That's what LARPing (the real definition, not the Codex definition) is for.

 

[Machocruz]

At this point, all a game has to do to be immersive is not be obviously built for two digit IQ jagaloons.

 

[Longshanks]

FPP is not inherently more immersive except in the most simplistic sense: "it is as though I'm looking through the character's eyes". There's nothing wrong with the argument but it's incomplete. It works fine for viewing things, but is limited for interacting with an environment or other characters.

This is completely backwards. The biggest advantage of first-person is precisely that it makes it far easier to interact with things. To compare two stealth games, in Thief I can simply move the mouse and look at any object or character and directly interact with it. In Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, I have to access a drop-down menu and scroll down it to to do things like pick up a soda can to throw as a distraction or crawl into a vent. The third-person view in Splinter Cell also means that often I wouldn't even have noticed that soda can to pick up or that vent to crawl in if it wasn't for the drop-down menu informing me, due to a combination of the camera not being at the right angle/distance and the character standing in front of the thing in question and obstructing it from view.

True for some interactions. I was more talking in the sense of a body's interaction with the environment. In FPP you're basically a floating rectangle. How well does something like somersaulting, parkour and other more complicated body movements work in FPP? For example, I don't think Spider-Man would really work in first person, or at least not as well. There is of course the option of a hybrid, I'm just ignoring that for simplicity.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

How well does something like somersaulting, parkour and other more complicated body movements work in FPP?

Dying Light is a nice example of parkour in FPP (and also melee combat, driving, shooting, etc...)

 

[Serus]

Who the hell does care about "immersive" ?

Half of the codex apparently.

 

[just]

wish i could live my life in third person i had enough of first person it's shit

 

[jac8awol]

The reason I am against FPP in RPGs is because most of the time I want to control a character that is already assumed to be great at the role they have been assigned. I don't want to 'be' an expert marksman, because I know that real life me is not, so using my shooting skills in FPP is already immersion breaking. If the game has good systems that abstract my character's shooting/combat ability in a fun way (usually isometric, RTWP, turn-based, TPP, whatever) then I can enjoy that. I just hate the way FPP games shoehorn you into being a shooter (coz it's the most logical thing in that perspective). I think you have better roleplaying options (char skill, not player skill) in other perspectives.

That being said, games like Thief worked so well in FPP, could only work so well in FPP, but that kind of game scratches a different itch from the one I want scratched by upcoming Cyberpunk. Woe is me...

 

[Harthwain]

I've been thinking...
Let's say you're playing a first person game and your guy is wearing a medieval helmet.
For the sake of immersion should we all be playing the game looking through a tiny slit?

Not only that, but you should also be wearing a medieval helmet. To be totally immersed, you should also feel the same as your character.

Hint: you can raise your visor in Kingdom Come: Deliverance.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG