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Frostpunk 2 - Long Live The Oil

Hellraiser

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Well at least this gives some vague and foolish hope they'll utilize the squandered potential of the original's concept and make actual gameplay. Did they hire actual game designers or are the same hipster artschool graduates still in charge?

I'll wait with a decision on if I'll get it or not until I see gameplay videos showing if this is more than a CYOA puzzle (if memorizing bar drop events can be called a puzzle) game masquerading as a strategy game.

If I would have to make a guess about new features, I figure warfare and combat are on the menu given the time skip and OIL theme.
 

cvv

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I'll wait with a decision on if I'll get it or not until I see gameplay videos showing if this is more than a CYOA puzzle (if memorizing bar drop events can be called a puzzle) game masquerading as a strategy game.

I've never understood this complaint, especially prevalent on Steam forums. "I wanted Frostpunk to be a sandbox city-builder and it's not therefore it's bad".

Like really? Frostpunk is not a sandbox, it's not a strategy game, it wasn't intended to be one and is not "masquerading" as anything (that's why the sandbox mode fans forced them to graft onto the game afterwards doesn't fit and is so bad). It has always been intended as a unique hybrid of strategy, survival and roguelike, with the emphasis on survival. It's right there in the Steam tags. And as such it succeeds spectacularly.

Complaining Frostpunk is bad bc it's not a "proper" strategy game is like complaining Dark Souls is bad bc it's not really an open world like in Skyrim or Witcher 3 and you don't get "proper" quests like in other RPGs.
 

Hellraiser

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What is there not to understand about that? Some people would prefer a city builder around the concept not a shallow CYOA, and if you looked at the pre-release images you got screens that visually matched a city builder so people expected that. And city builders tend to be sandbox games. Gameplay wise it is also reminiscent of one on a very superficial level so even with video footage of the gameplay it was not hard to mistake it for one, only when you play the campaign for an hour or two you realize that at it's core the experience is heavily scripted and the resemblance to a city builder or economical strategy is mostly on the visual and UI side. Really no mystery here why people expected something else.

Also what roguelike elements? The scenarios were linear and scripted as fuck with no random generation and it has standard save and reload functionality. Are two bars that show you how close to losing you are roguelike elements now?
 

lightbane

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Will this time be a bit more subtle, or will the game call you a monster for having to make rational, if harsh, decisions to ensure your people survives (out of a list of only bad choices mind you)?

The trailer seems to imply it will be like the OG game regarding this.
 

Malakal

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Glory to Ukraine
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Will this time be a bit more subtle, or will the game call you a monster for having to make rational, if harsh, decisions to ensure your people survives (out of a list of only bad choices mind you)?

The trailer seems to imply it will be like the OG game regarding this.

Who cares, I love being evil.

Feed the babies to baby fueled furnaces so I can have my hot coffee, slave.
 

thesheeep

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Will this time be a bit more subtle, or will the game call you a monster for having to make rational, if harsh, decisions to ensure your people survives (out of a list of only bad choices mind you)?

The trailer seems to imply it will be like the OG game regarding this.
Yeah, that aspect was fairly off-putting in the first game.

You reduce kids' school time a bit BECAUSE IT'S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD AND IT'S NECESSARY, but people treat you like you are slaughtering them alive and feed their innocent flesh to the dark gods.
As if people living in such a world could still somehow think they should be living in Utopia and survival would be possible without extreme measures. It was absurd.

What is there not to understand about that? Some people would prefer a city builder around the concept not a shallow CYOA, and if you looked at the pre-release images you got screens that visually matched a city builder so people expected that. And city builders tend to be sandbox games. Gameplay wise it is also reminiscent of one on a very superficial level so even with video footage of the gameplay it was not hard to mistake it for one, only when you play the campaign for an hour or two you realize that at it's core the experience is heavily scripted and the resemblance to a city builder or economical strategy is mostly on the visual and UI side. Really no mystery here why people expected something else.
In other words, people are fucking idiots and cannot read a Steam page, or tags.
Seriously, anyone who invests even a minute or two checking the game out would know that it is a unique thing and not just another sandbox city builder.

Don't get me wrong, I also prefer sandbox city builders over what they did, but that's not their fault.
I played the game as what it is, finished it once and had enough of its concept, really. Game has 0 replayability for me.
But I didn't go around complaining the devs didn't create a game of a different genre.
Because I'm not a moron.
 

Hellraiser

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In other words, people are fucking idiots and cannot read a Steam page, or tags.

While I can agree with the general thoughts about the game, with the usefulness of the steam page or tags in this case (or indeed in general) I cannot agree.

Half of the tags on any game are inaccurate for the very reason you mentioned, people are fucking idiots and tags are user-assigned. Case in point:

kl5RfKU.png


"strategy" and "city builder"

As for the steam page, I put in bold the sentences in "about the game" that imply it could be a city builder or management strategy game.

ABOUT THE GAME

THE CITY MUST SURVIVE
Frostpunk, the newest title from the creators of This War of Mine, is a society survival game where heat means life and every decision comes at a price. In an entirely frozen world, people develop steam-powered technology to oppose the overwhelming cold. You face the task of building the last city on Earth and securing the means necessary for your community to survive.

Optimization and resource management often clash with empathy and thoughtful decision-making. While city and society management will consume most of the ruler’s time, at some point exploration of the outside world is necessary to understand its history and present state.

What decisions will you make to ensure the survival of your society? What will you do when pushed to the limit? And who will you become in the process?

MAKE THE LAW
Establish laws that regulate the existence of your growing society. Decide on their working routine, healthcare, food provision and other crucial aspects of everyday life. Maintain their hope and contentment – the moral condition of your society is as important as securing the basic means to keep them fed and safe.

SHAPE YOUR SOCIETY
If you reach a turning point, do not hesitate to determine the path of your people. Should you rule them with an iron fist... or show them a way of compassion and faith? Reach for extremes or try to find a fair balance. Whichever you choose, remember: there’s no turning back.

WEIGH UP YOUR CHOICES
Some of your decisions will seem small – like deciding the fate of a troubled citizen or meeting the demands of a newborn faction – but be aware that the sum of your doings can lead to unexpected results. Your people put their faith in you, but their devotion is not limitless. Leadership can be a burden.

DEVELOP NEW TECHNOLOGIES
Survival demands progress. React to current events, but don’t forget about the long term and investing in development and technological progress. Providing a highly advanced infrastructure with self-powered automatons, airships, and other technical wonders is difficult, but achievable. It all depends on your management and leadership skills.

EXPLORE THE FROSTLAND
While New London is your main focus, there is much more to the world than what lies within the limits of your city. Expeditions, while risky, can bring you valuable intel, precious supplies and grow your society’s population. There may be people out there, and their fate lies solely in your hands.

The subject of the genre expectations of people vs what the vision of the developers was is debatable. While the devs didn't carry a burden of expectations for the game to be of a particular genre for legacy reasons as say Fallout 3 did, and they have every right to pursue whatever vision of genre or genre fusion they want to (it is their creation after all), the result can and should be criticized if it is too shallow and should have borrowed more "core" elements of one of the genres it is borrowing from already to add depth to the experience.
 
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The funny thing is that people bitched so much about the sandbox mode that the devs added it and people then started to bitch that the sandbox mode sucks. What a surprise, since the game was always supposed to be a linear storyfag experience and once you survive the first mega-storm, there isnt really anything to do (you can go through another, but what is the point...?).

The gameplay can remain the same as far as I am concerned, though they really need to step up the storyfaggotry a bit, introduce some actuall C&C for the exploration events (ie something more than just "good decision: you collect resources, bad decision: you lose two scouts," perhaps something like "you find some survivors - bring them back, gain more workers but perhaps an epidemy might spread because of them, or they start some internal conflict later on, leave them and they might start attacking you later, kill them and your people will start getting pissed off with you") and perhaps even add some combat mechanic.

Edit: btw Frostpunk is on free weekend now.
 

thesheeep

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Half of the tags on any game are inaccurate for the very reason you mentioned, people are fucking idiots and tags are user-assigned. Case in point:
kl5RfKU.png
"strategy" and "city builder"
Well, fuck me, that IS dumb.
Then again, probably not unexpected... I no longer raise an eyebrow seeing some "roguelike" on games that are neither turn-based, nor feature permadeath, nor procedural generation, nor ....
And let's not even get started on "RPG".
 

lightbane

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Yeah, that aspect was fairly off-putting in the first game.

You reduce kids' school time a bit BECAUSE IT'S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD AND IT'S NECESSARY, but people treat you like you are slaughtering them alive and feed their innocent flesh to the dark gods.
As if people living in such a world could still somehow think they should be living in Utopia and survival would be possible without extreme measures. It was absurd.

I think that's because of inane modern political views that unsurprisingly, don't fit a post-apocalyptic scenario. Or any other besides today's clown world, actually.
IIRC, you could go with focusing on religion or government ingame, but both end up being retarded extremes to keep control (although the religion one was less bad than blatant tyranny, duh), and the game criticizes you for doing so, despite the gameplay encouraging one or the other.
 

Hellraiser

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Yeah, that aspect was fairly off-putting in the first game.

You reduce kids' school time a bit BECAUSE IT'S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD AND IT'S NECESSARY, but people treat you like you are slaughtering them alive and feed their innocent flesh to the dark gods.
As if people living in such a world could still somehow think they should be living in Utopia and survival would be possible without extreme measures. It was absurd.

I think that's because of inane modern political views that unsurprisingly, don't fit a post-apocalyptic scenario. Or any other besides today's clown world, actually.
IIRC, you could go with focusing on religion or government ingame, but both end up being retarded extremes to keep control (although the religion one was less bad than blatant tyranny, duh), and the game criticizes you for doing so, despite the gameplay encouraging one or the other.

I think a better system would have been one revolving around public trust and conditions in the city. If the city is on an upwards trajectory despite shit being thrown it's way, the people should be more willing to accept harsh measures, trusting that the leader know what he is doing and the impact should be lower. Likewise, if a draconian EVUL measure is introduced, but despite it the ruler's actions result in a safer, better fed and warmer city, the negative opinion of the draconian law should lessen over time ("the trains run on time" factor if you will). That would have made for a much more interesting exploration of the social/political themes.

Of course the problem would be the slippery slope it introduces, where the situation can go out of control more easily.
 
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lightbane

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Yeah, that aspect was fairly off-putting in the first game.

You reduce kids' school time a bit BECAUSE IT'S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD AND IT'S NECESSARY, but people treat you like you are slaughtering them alive and feed their innocent flesh to the dark gods.
As if people living in such a world could still somehow think they should be living in Utopia and survival would be possible without extreme measures. It was absurd.

I think that's because of inane modern political views that unsurprisingly, don't fit a post-apocalyptic scenario. Or any other besides today's clown world, actually.
IIRC, you could go with focusing on religion or government ingame, but both end up being retarded extremes to keep control (although the religion one was less bad than blatant tyranny, duh), and the game criticizes you for doing so, despite the gameplay encouraging one or the other.

I think a better system would have been one revolving around public trust and conditions in the city. If the city is on an upwards trajectory despite shit being thrown it's way, the people should be more willing to accept harsh measures, trusting that the leader know what he is doing and the impact should be lower. Likewise, if a draconian EVUL measure is introduced, but despite it the ruler's actions result in a safer, better fed and warmer city, the negative opinion of the draconian law should lessen over time ("the trains run on time" factor if you will). That would have made for a much more interesting exploration of the social/political themes.

Of course the problem would be the slippery slope it introduces, where the situation can go out of control more easily.

That would make it a rather gray morality situation though, which seems to be unacceptable in today's clown world, hence why your proposal was likely rejected, if the devs ever thought about it.
 
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I'll wait with a decision on if I'll get it or not until I see gameplay videos showing if this is more than a CYOA puzzle (if memorizing bar drop events can be called a puzzle) game masquerading as a strategy game.

I've never understood this complaint, especially prevalent on Steam forums. "I wanted Frostpunk to be a sandbox city-builder and it's not therefore it's bad".

Like really? Frostpunk is not a sandbox, it's not a strategy game, it wasn't intended to be one and is not "masquerading" as anything (that's why the sandbox mode fans forced them to graft onto the game afterwards doesn't fit and is so bad). It has always been intended as a unique hybrid of strategy, survival and roguelike, with the emphasis on survival. It's right there in the Steam tags. And as such it succeeds spectacularly.

Complaining Frostpunk is bad bc it's not a "proper" strategy game is like complaining Dark Souls is bad bc it's not really an open world like in Skyrim or Witcher 3 and you don't get "proper" quests like in other RPGs.
It's advertised as a city builder. It's recommended on steam because I play other sim and city builder games. Everything about its store page screams city builder sandbox. It's not that it's "bad" per se, but it was marketed as something different (And dare I say, more popular than) its actual CYOA completely linear gameplay.

I played it during a free weekend on steam, which is good, because I was thinking about buying it. After playing for 8 hours or what have you, I'd seen literally everything the game had to show me.

The stupid moralizing in the ending was kind of pointless. In my playthrough I went with faith, and made myself keeper of the faith. I didn't take the upgrade that eliminated the happiness meter, or whatever it's called, that felt like an obviously bad choice. But the game didn't care, because back at the beginning of the game I allowed child labor in safe jobs when the game told me to. So I was an irredeemable monster from the getgo.

It felt like a wasted opportunity. With a little more subtlety, the whole question of "Did we need to be so harsh? In hindsight maybe not" could have been interesting, and has plenty of real world parallels. When you're in the midst of an emergency, you don't have the benefit of knowing you're even going to survive it. It's so easy to say after it's already over that we could have done less. For a real life example, consider the nuclear bombing of Japan to end WW2.

But instead, if it were this game, it would say "Oh, you reacted to two empires trying to take over the world with alarming speed by instituting a draft, you fucking monster, you were supposed to implement full communism which fixes all problems".

I assume frost punk 2, no longer having the element of surprise, will have the very small audience who actually enjoy this genre enjoy it, with everyone else ignoring it.
 

oscar

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I loved This War of Mine but Frostpunk left me quite cold (if you'll pardon the pun). As people have mentioned hard-bitten stoic Victorians having the weepy moral sense of a sheltered 13 year old girl fundamentally undermined the narratives and game mechanics.

Funny how much tougher and more reasonable to the situation your 90s Yugoslavians were in the first game.
 

Demo.Graph

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Chiming in to note that city builder does not necessary have to be a sandbox, e.g. Caesar series.

That doesn't invalidate the fact that FP1 had failed on being a city builder or a survival game, though.
 

cyborgboy95

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https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1601580/view/3122690263509401625

Imperial Exploration Company initiates Norway expedition
Dear Citizens.

As our city prospers, we need to reach for the uncharted to maintain its growth. Your Administration is pleased to inform you about attempts underway to expand our influence. On behalf of the Imperial Exploration Company, in the upcoming months, two brave Scouts will travel through the frozen nooks of Norway. They will send back reports on the weather conditions and everyday hardships they encounter in order to share knowledge about survival in hostile conditions. It is the Administration’s honor and privilege to share these accounts of their deeds with you.

4468dbfd81251b065da9aa0b7cf365f83a7bc7ba.jpg


4b4a0820e06a1e17b6a48a17bd33b20c7b3ed767.jpg


Now let Lars Andreas Melsæter and John William Baier Hofoss - the two Frostpunk fans who approached us with an invitation to take part in their incredible journey - share a few words about themselves.

fcea505902bb870237099f92e815384a89271a54.jpg

Lars:
I’m 22 years old. Born and raised in Molde, in the midst of the mountains, hills, and fjords of Møre og Romsdal, western Norway. My heritage traces to a long line of fishermen from the island-village of Bjørnsund.

After finishing my 14th year off school with flying colours, I decided not to devote myself to an education I did not care for and applied to Folkehøgskolen 69 Grader Nord in northern Norway. Folkehøgskole's unorthodox teaching covers hunting, dog keeping, clothing making, pathfinding, and all other skills that one might need to travel in northern Norway. The studying lasted for two semesters. Prior to moving to the far North, I actively participated in the local scout section for more than a decade, mostly in leadership positions. Scouting and the outdoors have been a great passion of mine for most of my life. Though I spent hundreds of nights outside and covered thousands of kilometres on foot, I have never undertaken anything of the scale we are about to embark on. I have long dreamt of a journey like this, and hopefully, it shall only be the first of many. Because of that, I moved to Tromsø in order to plan the expedition from here.

The peace of the woods and mountains, along with the simplicity of one’s basic needs, has always been the way for me to retreat and relax in an otherwise stressful lifestyle. I enjoy quiet evenings by the fireside for the view but granted my upbringing I do not like sitting still if it is uncalled for. Somewhat countering this love for peace and quiet, I am also known for highly ambitious trips and projects, and like pushing myself physically hard for no particular reason. Cabins are wonderful and cosy, but seeing, feeling, and doing the extreme ends of the spectrum are thrills and accomplishments are difficult to surpass.


51f77aee51e5e939e768f40f2c7ac2e0c3aeae66.jpg

John:
I have been fond of nature for most of my life. I’m 20 years old, and grew up in the Norwegian countryside, in Hadeland, surrounded by forest and hills. Here I hiked a lot with my family. Also, a common practice for kindergartens and primary schools is to let the children play in nature, so I took part in that.

In my area, countryside cross-country skiing is not as common as the one in pre-made tracks, so I was a stranger to it until school. My chosen subject centred on planning and executing expeditions in the mountains of Northern Norway. One assignment was to make a group for a planned 18 day trip without a teacher, and it made me fall for long expedition-like trips. I had no experience in the snowy mountains and plateaus of northern Norway, but I feel this half-year has taught me enough to take on this expedition. During my journeys, I also developed a love for photography, and for the expedition upgraded from a small, cheap camera to much more expensive equipment to better capture the wilderness. I adore photographing parts of nature that very few people have seen.

After school expeditions, I knew I wanted to continue, albeit sleeping in a tent for a long time really makes you appreciate four walls and a roof over your head. I moved to Tromsø to study urban planning, while also going on hiking or skiing trips. And when I started to feel limited by my studies and short, two-day trips related to them, Lars' proposition came. We knew each other from the expedition school and he told me that he’s going on a 4-5 month trip all around Northern Norway. After some consideration, I quit my studies and decided to come along.


Those fine gentlemen, accompanied by two lovely dogs: the black one named Gøril and the white one named Mikey, will attempt to cover approximately 1800 kilometres of various terrain on foot. Their initial report talked about expecting a little daylight and below minus 40 degrees centigrade before the spring gradually brings the light and thaws up the North.

b9da751b21259bca77bd5bf8dec785ad2132d1c4.jpg


The starting part of the journey - going by ship from Tromsø along the coast to the far east settlement of Vardø - left the crew with light seasickness. After a slight delay, Lars and John were ready to move into the actual first stage of the expedition that concluded in the municipality of Tana. “It’s a flat open terrain, but also a difficult, river-cut one, with limited vegetation and relatively frequent whiteouts” - explains Lars. “Along with not being used to the camp routines and being in worse physical shape than later, the unfamiliar whiteout-prone landscape makes this the segment I personally look the least forward to. The Varangerhalvøya National Park does hold its unique charm, though I believe it to be more spectacular in the spring. There are luckily a few cabins here and if the weapon accusation goes through, we may stay and hunt for a while. The temperatures here may vary but will not be as low as the peninsula is hated by the sea surrounding it. As of writing this the temperature at the middle of the peninsula is minus 15 degrees Celsius”.

[11bitstudios.com]
Click on the image to view the higher resolution.

We wish our Scouts all the best. The New London Administration will provide you with more updates as the expedition progresses.

00da4f728b14f67484f833cc6fd5e73e5bc9025a.jpg
 

Hellraiser

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Wake me up when they show gameplay, or rather when the game releases and someone actually streams it since these guys seem to have delusions they are an animation studio making a movie and not a fucking game developer. Not that I expect miracles regarding the gameplay after the first game, it's probably going to be more of the same CYOA with very basic economy/strategy layer as the first game, with maybe some oil-related gimmick like piping, but probably not going as far as having oil freeze if not warmed enough.
 
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Hellraiser

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Still no sign of gameplay footage, but there are screenshots and scraps of gameplay info in this new shill piece by pcgamer, based on a sandbox mode (called Utopia Builder) presentation by the potatoes at gamescom, apparently:

https://www.pcgamer.com/youve-survi...o-survive-a-population-that-doesnt-get-along/

tl;dr it actually sounds like it might be going in the right direction, but I still reserve my judgement until a proper demo is out and the exact gameplay mechanics are clear.

  • you now build/plan districts rather than every house and this reflects a larger city scale, although key buildings can be placed (into slots I guess?) to augment the districts
  • the research system seems to ditch the tech tree in favor of an approach similar to the law tree (here's a problem, which solution you pick for research)
  • the sandbox mode takes place on a timescale of years apparently?
  • there are factions and a city council voting mechanic reflecting their popularity/power within the city, factions can emerge later and grow in support, and they vote on your law proposals with semi-random outcome, you can secure votes through "side missions" for the factions to get better odds during the voting dice roll.

If all of this is as sandboxy as it should be it might actually be quite a solid improvement on the first game, if only because they design it with sandbox mode in mind rather than a heavily scripted scenario, where as the first game had sandbox mode as an afterthought post-release (and it anyway showed the game wasn't made for that).
 
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