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Incline Game Design Talk - Action Combat

Hell Swarm

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Hell Swarm
Once again, absolute subjective take completely disregarding the fact, that the game has an incredible fighting flow, and works beautifully on a very mechanical level if you put more than one hour and some brainpower into it. It certainly is a different kind of beat-em-up/action game, but it is completely dishonest to say that it is OBJECTIVELY bad because it doesn't suit YOUR playstyle. There is a very good reasoning why this game has become a cult classic, and it is not because of presentation alone.
Sure it works beautifully while you slowly turn to face enemies and waddle like an American between areas.
You know, that is exactly how I know that you haven't played this game fore more than 30 minutes, respectively didn't even bother to dive into it and learn at least its basic mechanics. Your opinion on this matter is thus absolutely worthless.
The typical God hand fan. "You didn't like it so you didn't play it enough", like every MMO gets good after 10,000 hours right? I play over an hour of it. If the first hour sucks the last hour is going to suck. I engaged with the mechanics and they're clunky and annoying. There's a reason why God hand is a niche title with a cult following and not something most people want to play. IGN got it 100% right.
 

d1r

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Hell Swarm
Once again, absolute subjective take completely disregarding the fact, that the game has an incredible fighting flow, and works beautifully on a very mechanical level if you put more than one hour and some brainpower into it. It certainly is a different kind of beat-em-up/action game, but it is completely dishonest to say that it is OBJECTIVELY bad because it doesn't suit YOUR playstyle. There is a very good reasoning why this game has become a cult classic, and it is not because of presentation alone.
Sure it works beautifully while you slowly turn to face enemies and waddle like an American between areas.
You know, that is exactly how I know that you haven't played this game fore more than 30 minutes, respectively didn't even bother to dive into it and learn at least its basic mechanics. Your opinion on this matter is thus absolutely worthless.
The typical God hand fan. "You didn't like it so you didn't play it enough", like every MMO gets good after 10,000 hours right? I play over an hour of it. If the first hour sucks the last hour is going to suck. I engaged with the mechanics and they're clunky and annoying. There's a reason why God hand is a niche title with a cult following and not something most people want to play. IGN got it 100% right.
We are talking about base mechanics here which you obviously didn´t make use of, or were not aware of. You for example do not have to individually turn to every opponent if you want to fight them, but rather just make use of the back dodge, nor does the game have any lengthy areas where you just run through doing nothing. I can respect your opinion, that you, as an individual did not like this game because of personal matters, but this "this game is objectively shit. IGN was right"-screeching is absolutely autistic and does not help you to undermine any of your points.
 

Hell Swarm

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Hell Swarm
Once again, absolute subjective take completely disregarding the fact, that the game has an incredible fighting flow, and works beautifully on a very mechanical level if you put more than one hour and some brainpower into it. It certainly is a different kind of beat-em-up/action game, but it is completely dishonest to say that it is OBJECTIVELY bad because it doesn't suit YOUR playstyle. There is a very good reasoning why this game has become a cult classic, and it is not because of presentation alone.
Sure it works beautifully while you slowly turn to face enemies and waddle like an American between areas.
You know, that is exactly how I know that you haven't played this game fore more than 30 minutes, respectively didn't even bother to dive into it and learn at least its basic mechanics. Your opinion on this matter is thus absolutely worthless.
The typical God hand fan. "You didn't like it so you didn't play it enough", like every MMO gets good after 10,000 hours right? I play over an hour of it. If the first hour sucks the last hour is going to suck. I engaged with the mechanics and they're clunky and annoying. There's a reason why God hand is a niche title with a cult following and not something most people want to play. IGN got it 100% right.
We are talking about base mechanics here which you obviously didn´t make use of, or were not aware of. You for example do not have to individually turn to every opponent if you want to fight them, but rather just make use of the back dodge, nor does the game have any lengthy areas where you just run through doing nothing. I can respect your opinion, that you, as an individual did not like this game because of personal matters, but this "this game is objectively shit. IGN was right"-screeching is absolutely autistic and does not help you to undermine any of your points.
IGN was right because a fighting game shouldn't be using tank controls and it shits up the experience on multiple fronts. You can keep going "Nuh uh" over and over but that's the reason it's a niche cult game and not popular with a wider audience.
 

Damned Registrations

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At 11 minutes you can see a guy being attacked by multiple enemies and surrounded. You can blame him for not knowing where the enemies spawn in but it's definitely an ambush you're likely to get surrounded in.
LOL, at 10 minutes and 35 seconds you can see him running across a long bridge with all of these enemies in plain sight, so yes, it's definitely his fault for being surrounded after walking past some of them and no, it's not an ambush you're likely to get surrounded in. He literally had to walk directly past an enemy within punching distance to get surrounded, and getting out of the situation is as simple as doing a backflip so they're all in front of you, or running through them and turning around, which takes less than a second. Being surrounded in this game is a complete non-issue.
 

Matador

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Not strictly about combat. But I want to comment on how it harms games the philosophy of "just the combat matters in action games".

Forgoing level design (even if linear) and gimmicks, encounter variety, atmosphere, pace, art design is not acceptable. I don´t want to play the best combat ever in a training room like autists want. A good complete package is always preferable to that.

Recent ofender is DMC5 with a good chunk of the game played in rehashed ugly hell scape with lazy kill room after kill room design. Combat is stellar, playable characters are incredibly designed. but the campaign is not exciting to play.

That´s why Ninja Gaiden Black and DMC3 are the best games in the genre. Combat is complex and satisfying enough, and playing the campaigns is awesome and doesn´t get old.

Also, too many options don´t equal better game design. Restricted options can deepen the game, and make it challenging and fun. Clear example are shmups, you just move, shoot and drop bombs, but they can be incredibly hard and tightly designed.
 
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Ezekiel

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Not strictly about combat. But I want to comment on how it harms games the philosophy of "just the combat matters in action games".

Forgoing level design (even if linear) and gimmicks, encounter variety, atmosphere, pace, art design is not acceptable. I don´t want to play the best combat ever in a training room like autists want. A good complete package is always preferable to that.

Recent ofender is DMC5 with a good chunk of the game played in rehashed ugly hell scape with lazy kill room after kill room design. Combat is stellar, playable characters are incredibly designed. but the campaign is not exciting to play.

That´s why Ninja Gaiden Black and DMC3 are the best games in the genre. Combat is complex and satisfying enough, and playing the campaigns is awesome and doesn´t get old.

Also, too many options don´t equal better game design. Restricted options can deepen the game, and make it challenging and fun. Clear example are shmups, we you just move, shoot and drop bombs, but they can be incredibly hard and tightly designed.
Mostly agree, but think DMC5's combat is not that good either. Dante is a mechanical mess of iteration upon iteration built on top of each other. Should have gone for reinvention instead. Way too many button presses. Replacing all the fixed cams with this zoomed-in spastic orbital cam made it harder to see what was going on. DMC3 knew how to balance the two cams, and even its orbital cam wasn't so bad.
 

Matador

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Dante is a mechanical mess of iteration upon iteration built on top of each other. Should have gone for reinvention instead. Way too many button presses.

Agree. Dante is cool, but kind of bloated, it´s several characters in one at this point. I found satisfying to use a small set of his tools. No need to use every style and weapon and switching constantly on the fly.
 

Dark Souls II

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When I first played Dark Souls II I had already been training boxing for almost a decade, as well as muay thai, kickboxing and other combat sports, and I was always disappointed that video games were never able to portray the feel and flow of actual fighting (because game devs are either pencilnecked or morbidly obese nerds who never even were in a fight). Case in point are the so-called "fighting" games, where "fighting" means autistically studying frame data and memorising sequences in which you press buttons.

Playing Dark Souls II for the first time was mindblowing. And I specifically mean PVP in Dark Souls II, which is the real highpoint of the game - PVE is just a fun minigame in which you collect loot and exp to create a good build for PVP. Anyway, Dark Souls II really felt like the real thing. The main focus on distancing and reach, evading movement, and timing - the three most important technical aspects of irl striking - made Dark Souls II combat feel immersive, engaging and realistic. The perfected poise system (compared to the vastly inferior Dark Souls I, which I consider a draft for the real masterpiece that came later) was the cherry on top and added a further level of realism. Plus there were the little details, like using a Red Iron Twinblade and unlocking mid-move while turning back to your opponent to hit him with the aRPG analogue of a backfist. It was all glorious.

And then they ruined it completely with Dork Soulless III.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Dante is a mechanical mess of iteration upon iteration built on top of each other.
Dante's mechanical concept is pretty simple: jack of all trades, master of all
And currently he's the natural conclusion to DMC3 concept
Should have gone for reinvention instead.
That would've been stupid because the DMC3 Dante's gameplay design hadn't yet reached its full potential
DMC5 was the game that finally achieved that, so only now would reinvention be a good idea as any improvements to 5's concept would be marginal
Way too many button presses. Replacing all the fixed cams with this zoomed-in spastic orbital cam made it harder to see what was going on
This sounds like a you problem
In my keyboard and mouse set-up I literally don't have to move my hand outside the WASD position to access all his kit
The camera in 5 is always quite space-out and it dynamic ajusts the distance based on how many enemies are the area (kinda suspect it's part of the reason why the game doesn't have many tight arenas)
I've already done 2 DMD playtroughs and not once has the camera ever obstructed the action - the aesthetic experience of the game would've benefited immensely if some figths had quality cinematic shots, but the camera even if boring absolutely fullfills its utilitarian purpose


I found satisfying to use a small set of his tools.
Which is further proof that DMC5 Dante's achieved it's gameplay purpose
 

Ezekiel

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Dante is not simple, he's a mess. Very mechanical in the brain. Have to remember where your weapons are in the cycle of three and takes longer. Worked better as a toggle, with two. I know I can still assign just two, but don't like the game anyway. With the D-pad style switching on top of the many weapons, the messiness feels multiplied when playing. As if a lock-on melee action game really needed three ranged weapons on L2. Most of it looks so uncool. (Character design lacks style too. At least the faggy cowboy look from 4 is gone, but not much better. Too much detail, too many lines, fuzz that's worse than both a clean shave and real beard, the homeless look.) Should have reinvented him, given you more ways to customize him so that you didn't need to press so many buttons, a nice combination of moves and weapons that you really liked. Fans are decline-enablers, always wanting more of the same.

The camera is trash. It moves all over the place on its own in a fight and can never pull back to show the scale or beauty of a place. Only in some of the big bosses did they bother expanding the view. I will not play DMC with a keyboard and mouse. If the game is like this only with a controller, that's not a me-problem, that's on the game. They dropped the cinematic cam for no other reason than morons thinking it's dated and bad.

You can't even change targets while moving anymore. L3 only works when he's still. It's been screwed up since 4.
 
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DJOGamer PT

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Dante is not simple
Simple to learn, hard to master
Very mechanical in the brain.
That's the appeal and the point
Have to remember where your weapons are
A matter of practice and you can always use fewer weapons until you're confortable
takes longer
The switch is instantaneous, with practice you can equip to whatever weapon you want in a fraction of a second
don't like the game anyway
What someone likes, is not the same an objective design quality
I generally don't like sports games (not counting racing), management games and I don't have the patience for Grand Strategy - this however doesn't mean these are bad games
As if a lock-on melee action game really needed three ranged weapons on L2
Each weapon has distinct mechanical purposes
You can beat the game with just one, but you can't use that one like you would the others, the results won't be the same and more importantly neither will your playstyle (nor your fun)
The camera is trash. It moves all over the place on its own
Maybe you just have butterfingers, because it really doesn't
2 DMD playthroughs, not 1 problem
I will not play DMC with a keyboard and mouse.
Your loss
DMC 1 to 4, I couldn't play on KBM
DMC5 on the other hand felt far more practical
They dropped the cinematic cam
Because it's more utilitarian
IMO they should've sticked to DMC4 scheme - cinematic during exploration ; manual during figths

Fans are decline-enablers
Dude in this post you are saying that Dante would be better to play if his mechanics had been oversimplified
You are literally asking for a dumbing-down of his mechanical depth, despite it being a mark of excellence in gameplay design, just because you find it too demanding

You, are the decline-enabler here
 
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Ezekiel

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Beginning of video shows visibility is just complete shit. Look at where the cam is at 25 seconds. Why did it go closer and closer leading up to the uselessness at 25 seconds when there are two other demons that need to be seen? Look at 24:03. If there are three enemies, why does the cam zoom in and cut out the other two after he moves in for the kill? I don't feel like opening the mediocre game again, but I remember the cam turning on its own as well. It wants to be all dynamic and movie-like, an annoyance that a mouse and keyboard (with shitty eight-way digital movement, that yeah, you would appreciate an orbital cam in conjunction with, since the turning of the cam makes the movement full 360) can't fix. It's trash. I can't remember if DMC4 used the orbital cam in all fights, but if so, then that's even more reason for me to shit on the game. Itsuno is a has-been.
 

DJOGamer PT

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As per usual, you overblow the gravity of your nitpicks while completely disregarding the merits of the game and refusing to accept the intentions of the devs even when they're thoughtfully designed and wonderfully executed
Not surprising under such autistic "scrutiny", even the best works of anything can never be considered satisfactory

Anyway, I don't have the patience nor the desire to go through your entire video
Solely talking about the 2 examples you pointed out (at 00:25 and 24:03), I don't see anything particularly obstructive to the "reading" of the action on-screen - but if they really bothered you so much there's a simple fix, it's called "move the camera you lazy dork"
 

Ezekiel

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I'm blowing nothing out of proportion. No point in discussing the merits when the negatives make it such a drag to play. On top of the objectively bad camera that you did a piss-poor job of defending and my personal issues with the artless, unstylish, inbred, cumbersome messiness of homeless Dante, there is also:

1. The uninspired art direction. Gothic metal fantasy replaced with boring realism. Subway just looks like a subway. Too many flesh corridors. Faces boringly real too, the unfortunate side of progress. I know Devil May Cry 3's were scanned, in part why it had fantastic facial animations and lip sync for the time, but the graphics were still simplistic enough that with the developer's few edits they appeared like a part of that stylized world.

2. The tedious structure and pacing. Each character should have their own campaign, even if short. I hate switching back and forth. Kills any sense of progression. If you don't love all three characters mechanically, prepare for boredom.

3. Supposedly, this has only a slightly longer cinematic runtime than Devil May Cry 3, but how the cutscenes are paced, how frequently they appear mid-level, is absolutely more tedious. The old games mostly had them at the beginning and end of a chapter and hugging bosses. Here they are sprinkled all over, if I remember correctly.

4. Visually bland bosses.

5. Barely remember what happened. Wondered what the point of it all even was as they sparred at the end.
 

DJOGamer PT

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You are blowing things out of proportion
As a pure Hack 'n' Slash the fundamental aspect the game had to get right to succeed was enemy design and combat mechanics - this is something DMC5 did exceptionally well
Even if the presenttion were excellent, it would just be the cherry on top, not the core of the game experience
Yet you are placing an excessive degree of importance to the presentation, while ignoring the significance and quality of the gameplay mechanics

Lastly, you failed to prove that DMC5 camera consistently harms the visibility of fights
And I am not going to discuss the calibre of the artstyle with you here, since:
  1. its a topic that falls outside the scope of this thread and would therefore derail it
  2. frankly I am not inclined to waste my time in what I know will turn into a very autistic back and forth bickering
 
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Ezekiel

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02 seconds - What could go wrong with the cam so close to Dante?
03 - I moved Dante right a little and one of the enemies is already gone, only his scythe visible.
04 - Only two enemies are seen and Dante is obscured. "Move the camera, you lazy dork," you say. My thumb is occupied with the attack, style, shoot and jump/dodge buttons. If you can limit the number of thumb movements (in a fast-paced game that places the primary actions on the face of the controller) with a different cam and tailored map design, why wouldn't you?

ihvnezg.jpeg


Mario is supposed to be just to the left of the center of the picture. I edited it, placed him right before the drop. Functional? No. Is Devil May Cry 5's camera functional? Since you can barely see threats, certainly not. Let's make Super Mario players work a stick with their thumb as well.

Actually, the character is too far away. It doesn't look cinematic.

gSmfxBh.jpeg


There! Who cares that the player has a fraction of a second to react to falls and enemies and needs to move the cam manually in order to see what they jump towards with that same thumb so long as the camera is up close and personal? It's like a movie!

06 - One of the two visible enemies stepped backwards, out of the frame. Now we only see one.

......................

Bleh. I was going to go over the entire minute of video, but rest speaks for itself. Cam barely keeps them in view. Games like Devil May Cry 3 were far less work.

Can practice until you get good at anything, but homeless Dante is still unnecessarily complicated.
 
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DJOGamer PT

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If you can limit the number of thumb movements (in a fast-paced game that places the primary actions on the face of the controller) with a different cam and tailored map design, why wouldn't you?
Now this is something worthy to discuss that's related to the thread's topic

I have been thinking for a year or so, that Camera is something underutilised in a creative manner in Action games
Obviously shooters aren't an ideal genre to play with Camera conventions for obvious reasons
But for Figthers (and perhaps even more appropriately, exploration focused games) player controlled cameras needn't be the default
The advantages would be the playe has not to trouble himself with adjusting the camera and the possibly for devs to essentially control what the players see at any given time (also it would free up the mouse and the right analogue stick)

But I understand the resistance to this
In an intense action game, the Camera should first and foremost frame the threats to the playable character in clear manner (how distant are the enemies, what's their position relative to the PC, etc.)
And for a "dynamic" camera to work in these conditions, the encounters and level design have to be specially curated for it
This would mean far more time spent on testing each fight
And naturally the more complex the level design, the more testing and correction the camera would require to make sure at no point during the fight the came would become an obstacle for the player

A manual camera, while bland a design choice, removes this cost for the developers and better prevents potential annoyances for the players


Dante is still unnecessarily complicated.
Alright, please share your ideas on how you would simplify Dante's controls, while retaining his current level of mechanical depth and flexibility
 

DJOGamer PT

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This is a trait it shares with every action game in existence, except those that are so braindead easy that you don't need to take into account what the enemy is doing.
Despite the memes, Sekiro is not a particularly hard hack 'n' slash
Lutte said it best, the hardest thing in Sekiro is realising that you (the player) are the problem, in the sense that its the player that creates obstacles when he thinks he can defeat enemies by creatively employing the tools and actions at his disposal, when in fact he's just hurting himself as Sekiro was designed to accommodate this
Once you realise the game just wants you to fight exactely in X way agaisnt Y enemy, the challenges become quite manageable
Furthermore, there's nothing that says you have to play this way. You can choose to dodge or run away at any time, which is often correct but never explicitly suggested by the game.
And so can you do this in pretty much every 3D and 2D Figther... :|
This is a foundational aspect of these games, it's expected for them to have it
You can also use prosthetics to avoid taking damage in various ways (umbrella, mist raven) or deal damage yourself by alternative means, like using shuriken at range, or lighting the enemies on fire or poisoning them. There are also ways of attacking in melee other than r1 spam, in the form of the various weapon arts.
Most prosthetics and combat arts are quite specific in their function, plenty are ultimately inadequate and all of them are limited in use
In their current implemation, they aren't a solution of Sekiro's lack of varied and worthwhile actions


I think there is a difference in how the game plays and how it feels playing like. I think that people who say Sekiro is a rhythm game just want to say the game makes them feel like they are playing a rhythm game.
Sekiro feels like a rhythm game, because there's just not a satisfactory amount of depth to its combat
The playable character doesn't have a varied and consistently engaging toolset - your most basic combat actions are the most powerful ones, the game never meaningfully progress in complexity past what you learn in the tutorial level
It also does everything in its power to punish the player for fighting the enemies outside its overly restrictive and particular design, even if said design is just boring and mindless - it is common, even in bosses, moments were the most correct tactic is for the player to wait for a specific cue so he can perform a specific counter move (the game literally expects the player to react instead of showing initiative, to wait like a puppy waits for a treat)

Going back to the Chess example, Sekiro is a game where the player only has 3 pieces at his disposal and those 3 pieces are pawns and each enemy piece can only be taken out in a few exact ways



And then, when you get to games like Elden Ring, which tried to add a degree of indterminacy to how the bosses move, people ended up bitching the difficulty is bullshit because now bosses can cancel combos and mix up attacks on the fly. So i guess they wanted a rhythm game after all, right?
Quite reductive. People complain manly that the design of bosses isn't suited for the players moveset and the game balance. Depending on playstyles and builds, a lot of boss fights, specially endgame, consist of either the player having to dodge/block long chain of attacks with small openings that feel very unrewarding and unfun (which sucks because they actually managed to made defending fun and rewarding in Sekiro thanks to the posture and deflect system), or stomping the boss without even having to deal with its mechanics.

Also I would say that bosses don't really have that much indeterminancy in ER. At best they may have a couple of combo routes and respond to the player healing or casting a spell, but they are very predictible and repetitive. Games with true cases of indeterminancy would probably be God Hand and Ninja Gaiden 1/2, where in both games you have to learn to hit confirm and use things like quick jabs/slash to see how the enemy react and then decide your next course of action, and defensivelly the bosses are a lot more deep and interesting. In case of God Hand it almost reward being able to guess what the enemy will do due to the counter system of that game.
Add to that the fact alot of the difficulty from the most egregious ER bosses comes mainly from the devs abusing lazy "gotcha" design mechanics that were quite common in those intentionally bullshit quarter-munching arcade bosses, like:
  • inflated HP
  • excessively long combos, that don't stop even after the player has been hit
  • unreasonable amounts of tracking, coupled exagerated hitbox sizes and AoE
  • underhanded animation cancelling
  • shameless use of input reading
 

Ezekiel

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That's a loaded question. Your depth I call fluff. So impressive that Dante has 700 moves when the enemy mostly stands around, waiting for their turn to do one of three moves. Get things like efficiency, comfort, spacing, risk/reward and style down, then worry about how intricately the good players can juggle the poor enemy (which looks retarded after a point). I'm not going to eat that bullet because I don't have the time and won't be rewarded for writing a whole design document of ideas that balance each other, which I can't test in an alpha anyway. You already have your biases.

A manual {and "exciting"} camera, while bland a design choice, removes this cost for the developers and better prevents potential annoyances for the players

It adds way more annoyances for the player, many more thumb movements. Should have used both cameras and pulled back as more enemies entered the arena, rather than zoom way in for the one target or (24:03 in my first video) kill.
 

Lyric Suite

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Going back to the Chess example, Sekiro is a game where the player only has 3 pieces at his disposal and those 3 pieces are pawns and each enemy piece can only be taken out in a few exact ways

I disagree with this notion that "depth" equates with "complexity" and even less with "quantity" (though the latter could just be seen as a form of complexity).

FromSoft's combat design is not complex per-se, it's just incredibly clever. As clever as music is clever. The challenge is spatio/visual, and every boss is like a whole new song you have to learn. People not understanding this is par per course because people also rarely understand music.
 

Zanzoken

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Anyone care to do a breakdown (or link a video or article) on Soulslike combat and why it is good?

I watched this video where dude covers the basics of DS1, but feel free to discuss DS2, DS3, Sekiro or whatever you like the best.



Despite their popularity I was never interested in FromSoft games at all, but I'm working on my own action melee combat system now and I feel like I should at least understand how Soulslike combat works and why people like it.
 

Damned Registrations

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Originally it was pretty good because it was very slow paced and made the combat have a strong tactical side to it; running out of stamina was as big a danger as running out of health, so spamming attacks wasn't the best option like in most games and you couldn't hold down block because it crippled your movement and stamina recovery. This kind of fell apart as the series went on and everything got more spastic and less predictable, blocking became inferior to spamming dodgerolls, and now the combat is basically all about spamming whatever broken combat art you like.
 

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