Review Gamerz Edge praises ToEE

[triCritical]

Tri: Thanks for proving my point. Any negative with Troika's games are the publishers' fault. If that's all you were gonna say; you should have just said it instead of wasting the other words. Your post there need a max word count.

Thanks for the copout!

And remind me not to include you on this list.

That all said, you are probably wonderin' why I post here. Well.. SP has a quote of mine that illustrates why. To further that, it's because inspite of your biasnesses there's at least a number of the regulars here who I can debate at least reasonably with for the most part (SP & VD are the two best examples of this).

because your debating skill suck.

Where did I say that all of ToEE problems where Atari's fault? I just pointed out the three top complaints that can actually attributed to Atari. Where my main beef with KotOR can not be attributed to Lucas Art. They just can't, you just can't blame bad combat on Lucas Arts no matter how hard I try. I can blame the horrible universe and the stupidity that surrounds it all on Lucas Arts, but I really don't care that much about that sort of thing in games.

For what its worth, Atari was responsible for releasing NWN in an unfinished state. Had it been IPLY they would probably waited another 3-6 months and losing more potential revenue.

not imposing a word limit on a game's text does not make bad writing better. If the writing is bad, then in fact I would rather have less of it!

unless of course the writing is itself effected by the limitations.

Actually some games could have done with a word limit! PST and KOTOR come to mind as being perhaps a little too talky for the medium. I feel like having to pause the gameplay for a series of long-winded dialogues doesn't help the immersion factor much.

Don't play the game, or skip through the dialogue. Both KotOR and PS:T allowed ways to zoom past dialogue, or not get involved with extraneous information. For that matter, there was no way to do the socialogical character development found in PS:T without words. Whether you like the game or not, both of those games had artistic integrity. I have yet to play a game that was too wordy, that just A.D.D talking. I hate reading, and I am not a fan of PS:T because it was a tome. But that should not take away from the fact that it was a really well made game, that could not have been as good with less words.

I had plenty of word limits imposed on me at uni. and to be honest having to keep myself focused and ensure that what I did write was not wasted space helped a lot, in some cases, with *improving* my work.

You believe that tripe? Word limits are imposed to keep TA's and professor's from spending the rest of their lifes reading crap. Not to help you keep focused. Anyhow, that is neither here no there, the two situations are hardly analogous.

 

[DemonKing]

I hate reading, and I am not a fan of PS:T because it was a tome. But that should not take away from the fact that it was a really well made game, that could not have been as good with less words.

Well when I want to read a book, I read a book. When I want to play a game, I play a game. I really liked PST, but at some stages it felt more like a book than a game - hence my comments that it (and KOTOR) were a bit wordy for the game medium.

You believe that tripe? Word limits are imposed to keep TA's and professor's from spending the rest of their lifes reading crap. Not to help you keep focused.

Well, of course word limits are there because teachers and professors only have so much time to shift through masses of student essays (or because Atari only has so much money for translations) - I was merely pointing out that if I have limited resources (eg: a limit to the number of words I can use) and I know what my objectives are, then it sometimes helped me to filter out a bit of superfluous crap from my writing and made sure I hit the important points.

Of course if what I wrote in the first place was total shite, then filtering didn't help much.

 

[Sol Invictus]

What a fucking nunce. PS:T was an interactive novel (presented as an RPG) and I damn well liked it because it was exactly that. To say that the game could have used less words because you couldn't enjoy the combat due to the extraneous dialogue in-between fights is completely ignorant, considering that combat was one of the least important factors of Torment.

That's like saying all of the words in National Geographic magazine are just there to hinder you from flipping through the pretty pictures at a faster rate; you've completely missed the point of the subject matter.

Oh and also, do cut down on the random mouth stuffing and unrelated straw-man arguments you tend to bring in, Demonking. It's very annoying to have you steering the topic off course every time you post something.

 

[triCritical]

Well when I want to read a book, I read a book. When I want to play a game, I play a game. I really liked PST, but at some stages it felt more like a book than a game - hence my comments that it (and KOTOR) were a bit wordy for the game medium.

You should have played Zork!

Anyhow, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play it. Some CRPG's have very little words, other have many. PS:T was game in which there was some deep self-discovery and sociological interaction. There is just no way it could have achieved this without the dialogue and words.

Well, of course word limits are there because teachers and professors only have so much time to shift through masses of student essays (or because Atari only has so much money for translations) - I was merely pointing out that if I have limited resources (eg: a limit to the number of words I can use) and I know what my objectives are, then it sometimes helped me to filter out a bit of superfluous crap from my writing and made sure I hit the important points.

And IMO this is exactly what Troika did. They used the bare minimum to get the point across and it came out dry, robotic and boring. They got the point off, but failed to give life to the characters by giving them extraneous information ala PS:T. Do you think Morte in PS:T would have been any different from Annah, if they both used the minimum number of words to get across a particular message. Of course not... they would all be robots, preprogrammed to respond identically when asked something.

 

[JJ86]

It depends on how the conversations are presented in the games. Obviously if there is verbosity without context which hinders the story, then it should be cut. I haven't played KOTOR or TOEE but have played Arcanum. In that game I expect there to be plenty of dialogues to drive the story when playing it. The combat doesn't drive the story in an RPG. At times I may get a little anxious for the story to progress, but then I just take a break to relax. Dialogue should be there for a reason to spur your imagination to make the game world more believable.

 

[Volourn]

Tri, what list are you talking about? You mean the list of people Tri respects? The list of people who agrees with Tri so they must be cool? Believe me, I ain't gonna cry about not being on it either. Oh, my debate skills suck? Is that the best you can do? Can't argue just say they suck. Yeah, way to go.

Bottom line, you are an ADMITTED Troika fanboy who *always* blames anything bad in a Troikian game on outside forces. That is the *ultimate* fanboy. It's not their fault; it's the big bad boss' fault. Whatever. Keep circling the wagon; but the bottom line you are the ultiamte example of what Gromnir is talking about. Troika can do no wrong. They jut happen to choose the worst publishers... Go figure.

Repeat this mantra:

It's not Troika's fault; it's not Troika's fault; it's not Troika!!

However, it won't change the facts that it IS their fault.

Period.

 

[Vault Dweller]

vd says that responding to us is a "waste of time" (is another direct quote for jinx who can't read very well,) but he will keeps responding to us... in part 'cause Gromnir has questioned his integrity and in part 'cause he knows we is right.

Actually, I never said that responding to you or any other person is a waste of time, what I said was:
"I did post the explanations above to answer quick questions and deal with some assumptions a person new to this forum would have. Call it a courtesy. Going beyond such a courtesy, trying to prove something to an obviously biased person, looking for examples to get someone's approval sounds like a waste of time to me. Having said that, if you find something you disagree with and woud like to ask me about it, I'll always answer your or anybody else's questions."
I'd appreciate if you pay attention to what people are posting in the future. That's kinda the whole concept and a reason for having a conversation. I keep responding because it entertains me just like it entertains you. Looking for examples for your amusements trying to prove something in response to an empty accusation/trolling is a waste of time.

is no waste of time... is a near necessity to respond, 'cause vd and some of you other regulars seems to be the few folks that ain't getting that this is a joke site...

These things are always a matter of perception. I have no doubt that there are many people who think that the Codex is a joke site ran by arrogant assholes, well, many people believe that the iply boards attracted the worst kind of idiots, so as long as the balance is maintained, I'm happy.

regardless of our puckish personality, little ole' Gromnir make a valid comment and vd ain't really been able to respond to it yet.

You asked me a question, I answered it. Whether the reply was satisfactory or not, is of no importance to me. By the same token, I can ask you a question about your charming personality and refuse to accept any answer but the one that proves my point of view. It wouldn't mean that you failed to respond though. Once again, I posted 3 ToEE reviews, I can't possibly give you what you want, it doesn't mean that I'm unable to answer, surely you can comprehend that.

as an aside, we already did. didn't think we needed to link for obvious reasons though.

If it's not too much trouble, can you post the link to such a review, explain the nature of your complain so we can look at the exact phrase and to the review overall. If you think that I memorized every ToEE review and can identify it by a few key words, you are mistaken.

 

[triCritical]

Tri, what list are you talking about? You mean the list of people Tri respects? The list of people who agrees with Tri so they must be cool? Believe me, I ain't gonna cry about not being on it either. Oh, my debate skills suck? Is that the best you can do? Can't argue just say they suck. Yeah, way to go.

No its your list of people who just say stuff with premise to form an argument. You don't seem to be doing this. You just say stuff, and assume it to be true, without a lick of evidence.

Bottom line, you are an ADMITTED Troika fanboy who *always* blames anything bad in a Troikian game on outside forces.

I am! Wow you can read my mind! Thanks, next time I need another mind fuck, I will call you.

It's not their fault; it's the big bad boss' fault.

Yeah because some things are never the big bad bosses faults. BTW, I never blamed Sierra for the stuff that went wrong in Arcanum. Hey do something different for once and try to back up your claims with some evidence.

but the bottom line you are the ultiamte example of what Gromnir is talking about. Troika can do no wrong.

I am, considering I don't have the power to make news post and then say good stuff about ToEE and bad stuff about KotOR, I don't know how I could be this person. Anyhow Gromnir is just a big silly-head and I don't care what he thinks of me. But at least he doesn't go around saying things are this without one lick of evidence.

PS, I don't wat to get into whether his evidence is substatiated, or not.

edit,

However, it won't change the facts that it IS their fault.

One day when you leave your job at walmart, you will find that a sub-contractor can take a job that will be impossible for you to do you A+ work. Whether, or not this is what happened with Troika, is indifferent to the fact that it is a possibility for this to happen. Something that you just need to accept. I have been involved with such contracts, and I believe Gromnir has as well. The only difference is that he quit his job then do what his boss asked him, or maybe he was let go, I don't know...


EDIT AGAIN, NASA's current model is a good example of this.

 

[Gromnir]

so, is it vd's suggestion that you is still in courtesy mode? thought you was making clear that any further response would be a “waste,” but then again, maybe you is just full of crap. somebody like you will waste an eternity arguing this issue with Gromnir if we give you the opportunity. is no waste of time for you… you needs it ‘cause you takes your silly board rep very serious. you just not understand that your rep, for the most part, is sorta a joke… which would be ok if you was in on the joke.

looks to spaz is our suggestion. he is at least honest, to a certain degree, 'bout what is going on here at site, and he not apologize for it. good for him. is no reason to apologize... but no reason to deny what is so friggn' obvious neither. we is not moved by his rationalization of bias, but so what, he not care if we is convinced or not.

*shrug*

as to our link to the review in question... there ain't no reason why you shouldn't recognize the comment we lifted. maybe we give you a few more moments to consider 'cause if we post you is gonna feel embarrassed and we surely not want any more of that, do we?

HA! Good Fun!

p.s. this is last place we would get into a relative merits debate of toee... and we already noted why.

 

[DrattedTin]

so, is it vd's suggestion that you is still in courtesy mode? thought you was making clear that any further response would be a “waste,” but then again, maybe you is just full of crap. somebody like you will waste an eternity arguing this issue with Gromnir if we give you the opportunity. is no waste of time for you… you needs it ‘cause you takes your silly board rep very serious. you just not understand that your rep, for the most part, is sorta a joke… which would be ok if you was in on the joke.

looks to spaz is our suggestion. he is at least honest, to a certain degree, 'bout what is going on here at site, and he not apologize for it. good for him. is no reason to apologize... but no reason to deny what is so friggn' obvious neither. we is not moved by his rationalization of bias, but so what, he not care if we is convinced or not.

*shrug*

as to our link to the review in question... there ain't no reason why you shouldn't recognize the comment we lifted. maybe we give you a few more moments to consider 'cause if we post you is gonna feel embarrassed and we surely not want any more of that, do we?

HA! Good Fun!

p.s. this is last place we would get into a relative merits debate of toee... and we already noted why.

Sir,

please consult the following guide before making your next post: http://www.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'll admit I've cut TIm Cain some slack in the past because he's Tim Cain, but the fact (erm, I should say opinion, really) remains that Troika makes better games than BioWare. That's the opinion held by this site's staff.

I can't say I'm completely thrilled with the prospect of Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, though.

 

[triCritical]

I can't say I'm completely thrilled with the prospect of Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, though.

If it wasn't using the HL2 engine I would be a bit happier. However, from the media clip it just looks like it is going to be a Deus Ex Machina with vampires. If the Troika/Activision press team could be a bit more consistent as to the combat rules, I would be happier as well. One moment Leon is saying that guns are governed by stats, and next the hype machine is saying its going to be action packed. Frankly, as bad as MW combat was, I would prefer that over straight up shooter. Mainly because I just don't think you can balance FP RT guns with all other modes of play.

 

[Vault Dweller]

so, is it vd's suggestion that you is still in courtesy mode? thought you was making clear that any further response would be a “waste,”

Once again, trying to prove that I'm not biased to a biased person is a waste of time, and if you paid any attention, I stopped doing it when I said so. Now I merely responding to you because it amuses me. You would have noticed the change of tone earlier if you weren't so busy thinking how clever you are.

maybe you is just full of crap

That is always a possibility and it applies to you as well. :wink:

somebody like you will waste an eternity arguing this issue with Gromnir if we give you the opportunity. is no waste of time for you…

An eternity? Aren't we presumptuous?

you needs it ‘cause you takes your silly board rep very serious.

I don't really care about my board rep or any other rep. I am what I am, if people like my arguments and my company, that's fine with me. I'm not interested in being a guy who hates Bio the most or who argued with Gromnir the longest.

you just not understand that your rep, for the most part, is sorta a joke… which would be ok if you was in on the joke.

I think that everything is a joke one way or another, so I can live with that, but thanks for caring enough to tell me.

looks to spaz is our suggestion. he is at least honest, to a certain degree, 'bout what is going on here at site, and he not apologize for it. good for him.

I like Spazmo, but I never tried to be like somebody else, so you'd have to bear with me if you can.

is no reason to apologize... but no reason to deny what is so friggn' obvious neither.

Matter of perception. I'm happy that you are so perceptive though.

as to our link to the review in question... there ain't no reason why you shouldn't recognize the comment we lifted. maybe we give you a few more moments to consider 'cause if we post you is gonna feel embarrassed and we surely not want any more of that, do we?

Right, 'cause that would definitely destroy my "board rep". Well, on second thought, I'd take my chances, so post it.

 

[EEVIAC]

as to our link to the review in question... there ain't no reason why you shouldn't recognize the comment we lifted. maybe we give you a few more moments to consider 'cause if we post you is gonna feel embarrassed and we surely not want any more of that, do we?

Right, 'cause that would definitely destroy my "board rep". Well, on second thought, I'd take my chances, so post it.

Yeah, I want to see this "rep crushing" link as well. Will it, like, totally destroy VD's computer as well?

 

[Vault Dweller]

as to our link to the review in question... there ain't no reason why you shouldn't recognize the comment we lifted. maybe we give you a few more moments to consider 'cause if we post you is gonna feel embarrassed and we surely not want any more of that, do we?

Right, 'cause that would definitely destroy my "board rep". Well, on second thought, I'd take my chances, so post it.

Yeah, I want to see this "rep crushing" link as well. Will it, like, totally destroy VD's computer as well?

Noooo! Not my computer!!! I built it out of spare refrigerator parts and a broken radio. Take my rep if you have to but not my komputah!!!

 

[Spazmo]

I can't say I'm completely thrilled with the prospect of Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines, though.

Me neither, but it sure looks a lot more interesting than Jade Empire or Bioware's TOP SEKRIT PC CRPG--anyone wanna bet it's high fantasy?

 

[Volourn]

Looks better to Jade Empire? You gotta be kiddin' me. I probably won't buy JE unles x-box becomes realc heap; but it already shows a lot of promise compared to Vampre: Action Game Plus. Where oh where are the Troika glory days of Arcanum?

P..S. Spazmo and my posts are examples of biasness. However, unlike the above fellow, I can admit that Trpoika has made one great game. I mean SP posts that he isn't too interested in Vampire; than Spazmo feels obliged in between the ass kissin' to say that though that game may look like it will suck; it can't be possibly worst than BIO's new game (despite people here saying that KOTOR was an "improvement" over the other games). Hmmm. That goes beyond bias Spazmo and into fanatical brainswashee territory. Tsk, tsk.

P.S.S. VD roxs! He, and SP arre still tied as the top RPGCodex personalities!

P.S.S.S. No one cares about this crap so stop reading. Please and thank you.

 

[Spazmo]

Uh... now maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, I don't think Vampire will suck. I figure it'll be pretty neat, even. There's nothing wrong with action RPGs and if Vampire manages to deliver all it promises (it won't of course--no game does) without being too gothy, linear or jiggly, I think it'll be a fun game.

Edit: I imagine I should add that I agreed with Saint above because while I think Vampire will be a good enough game on its own, it's not the kind of game I want to be made. I've said many times that I want to see a sci-fi RPG in space and stuff--a setting something like the Firefly TV show or maybe Escape Velocity Nova. I'm also not fond of licenced games because licences tend to lead to trouble (not only with Troika, mind you, IPLY has gotten burnt there, too). But I still think Vampire can be a good game.

Jade Empire, on the other hand, will either be an RPG on the same level as KotOR or just a tiny bit better as BioWare experiments more with those things that make RPGs actual RPGs. Platform issues aside, I wouldn't get Jade Empire because I'm not interested in the setting (Asian stuff leaves me blah. Can't stand their food, either) and because I don't feel like watching BioWare's next fledgling step towards decent game making. I only really got KotOR because of Xmas money influx and complete desperation for SOMETHING to play.

 

[Volourn]

OMG I'm impressed. I was expecting a more aggresive response than that. There's not much I can retort with after that. You win.

 

[Voss]

a setting something like the Firefly TV show

Dull, pointless and cancelled?
:D

Vampire-
Meh. Too many conflicting issues pulling it apart in different ways. RPGg elements, FPS elements, the WW rules, the WW image (angst goth stuff), what the average gamer feels comfortable with (not angsty goth stuff)... I could go on, but... Oh yeah, and the jiggly.

Jade Empire strikes me as interesting - the setting, the martial arts style, the agents thing (sending NPCs off to complete the trivial tasks)
On the other hand, getting an Xbox...maybe if the price goes down, and my cd player craps out like I think it might (I understand the box makes a decent replacement). Maybe.

 

[Volourn]

That's what I'm doing. I ain't paying more than a hundred or so for a system that *may* have five games for it that I have any interest in it all - not counting cross platform games like KOTOR or EA's sports games.. No matter how interesting JE may be.

 

[Spazmo]

Oh, I sure as fuck am damn well chomping at the bit in anticipation of a mere climpse of what JE is gonna do with Gauntlet!

 

[taks]

Sir,

please consult the following guide before making your next post: http://www.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

gromnir posts in character. buy the game throne of bhaal and pay careful attention to the second bad guy (or the first... can't recall)...

odds are good that gromnir has better grammar than most that post on this board. not to mention more education (hehe, more than most...)

mark

 

[Volourn]

LOL Spaz. Wrong JE.

 

[taks]

The address is 644 Lakeshore Dr Unit 36. I'll be waiting.

you live on LsD, huh? i always thought something was amiss...

mark