Games for people with depression

[Burning Bridges]

That is factually incorrect. Cats get depressed.

My nieces cat even committed suicide by lying down in the middle of the road.

 

[Burning Bridges]

It's true. It did not work the first time, but as she kept lying there she was eventually run over.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

unfortunately mentally ill people often make for great emotional punching bags.

LS is just an incel

It is just...nice to see line-to-line.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

unfortunately mentally ill people often make for great emotional punching bags.

LS is just an incel

It is just...nice to see line-to-line.

Incel is a self-designation, comrade. It does not make one involuntarily so beyond his own narrative for not bettering himself.

 

[Theodora]

Thanks Beastro, I really appreciated your posts.

Women need advice and solutions and not to feel understood/heard and men need to the opposite. Anyone who doubts that about a guy, consider a decent hard working dude who feels underappreciated at his job that has resentment and bitterness infect his life, something that could easily be dispelled by a little acknowledgement from his superiors even if he gets nothing tangible from it but a pant on the back.

Yeah, there's a lot of overlap there with this pissed housewife trope. Years of un-or-barely-acknowledged work is grating, no matter who it's for. I squarely believe that at the end of the day most of us, whether we're comfortable with it or not, are wanting to feel understood -- we just go about it in very different ways. I've known so many men who are emotionally toddlers despite being terribly smart, expecting their work to speak for them and their intelligence. I'm just really sceptical that that can ever work out, versus the reality that we do share in all being ultimately quite vulnerable, scared creatures on this earth.

In a sense incels are a great example of this, they put up walls where they should be attempting to let their guard down.

Talking can help orient you and does so in ways that at first don't make sense. Simply doing what is needed often isn't enough, especially when your disposition leads you into undermining yourself doing things that are nominally good and would help, but they are being counter-productive. Being hard on yourself and always pushing for improvement can be good, but you get the positive feedback loop going negative, then you need to stop and think.

The problem there is simple thought and self-reflection often aren't enough. Vocalizing, especially to someone else comes with things that you cannot do talking alone or in your own mind. Whatever impact those thoughts have, they cannot have the full impact that comes with saying them to someone else's face, and that isn't a simple "Letting it out" thing, it also helps hammer things home and have them sink in.

The reason I brought up the whole men-women thing (though it has very obvious limits, like any generalisation) is just this; common experience of guys thinking a woman is trying to get help or advice -- i.e. that she's helpless -- when in fact she doesn't need any input on actually actionable steps but is instead just trying make sense of her emotional world and what's important, or that it's even valued suffering in the first place.

No, for the same reason being merciful on yourself isn't the same as excuse making and molly coddling yourself.

On this I think we need to define what the whole 'man up' thing actually means here then; because 99.9% of the time I've seen guys "man up" it's involved a mixture of negative-self talk and avoiding confronting that sense of self-loathing honestly. Like anyone who deals with a chronic internal critic is dealing with childhood remnants.

I know I'm totally injecting myself into this context, because I struggle endlessly with appreciating anything I do -- could work straight for a week with no real breaks but sleep and I'd still feel like 'doing something nice' like drawing or even reading fiction was nothing short of self-indulgence. (The only upside is knowing where it comes from, if only that were enough to dismiss it!)

(And yeah, I know about shoutbox antics, I would care much less if it was just memes and didn't instead come across as a weird, circuitous route to validating their own completely unhinged levels of misogyny.)

 

[Verylittlefishes]

still what?

Still the question remains. Of the nature of the depression I mean.

Biological determinism.

That's exactly what capitalist realism wants us to think lol. Problems are all in your head bro.

There is no mind, only matter. Our sentience is a biological process.

I believe, nobody from Egyptian priests to certain Christians or most artists nowadays would agree with you.

Still, you continue to speak in line with capitalist realism which is really amusing.

 

[Theodora]

Incel as a self-designation, comrade. It does not make one involuntarily so beyond his own narrative for not bettering himself.

I wish changing my situation was half as easy as it is for incels. But they're stubborn in extremo, and would rather maintain a self-image of being right about women than actually, you know, be happy?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

still what?

Still the question remains. Of the nature of the depression I mean.

Biological determinism.

That's exactly what capitalist realism wants us to think lol. Problems are all in your head bro.

There is no mind, only matter. Our sentience is a biological process.

I believe, nobody from Egyptian priests to certain Christians or most artists nowadays would agree with you.

Still, you continue to speak in line with capitalist realism which is really amusing.

Truth is not a democratic convention, comrade.

As for the words of your prophet Fisher, I could care less. Determinism does not deny the theoretical practicality of Dasein, just as it does not deny that of the illusion of free will.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Truth is not a democratic convention, comrade.

It certainly is.
More totalitarian convention I must add.

 

[Theodora]

There is no mind, only matter. Our sentience is a biological process.

Regardless of the answer to this, even from a completely physical understanding of being, we are not beyond being programmed to the point that our own willpower is no longer enough (at least with any immediacy) to free us of it. If anything, the opposite is true! Being purely physical makes us easier to control and manipulate, as our minds are no longer designated as truly our own.

edit: lol VLF and Mag, you two arguing is like watching the two halves of my mind fight each other.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

There is no mind, only matter. Our sentience is a biological process.

Regardless of the answer to this, even from a completely physical understanding of being, we are not beyond being programmed to the point that our own willpower is no longer enough (at least with any immediacy) to free us of it. If anything, the opposite is true! Being purely physical makes us easier to control and manipulate, as our minds are no longer designated as truly our own.

At the end of the day, whether one subscribes to determinism or not makes no practical difference. One's willpower is the same regardless of its origins.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Maybe the real depression is all the friends we made along the way?

 

[Theodora]

At the end of the day, whether one subscribes to determinism or not makes no practical difference. One's willpower is the same regardless of its origins.

I don't think there's anything I can say if you're maintaining hardcore determinism. I think this might be how I first stopped being a tanky when I was like 14 or w/e lol.

 

[Grauken]

At the end of the day, whether one subscribes to determinism or not makes no practical difference. One's willpower is the same regardless of its origins.

I don't think there's anything I can say if you're maintaining hardcore determinism. I think this might be how I first stopped being a tanky when I was like 14 or w/e lol.

Such light barb, almost imperceptible

 

[RK47]

Just fap lah

 

[Heroic Liberator]

At the end of the day, whether one subscribes to determinism or not makes no practical difference. One's willpower is the same regardless of its origins.

I don't think there's anything I can say if you're maintaining hardcore determinism. I think this might be how I first stopped being a tanky when I was like 14 or w/e lol.

Such light barb, almost imperceptible

Smugness is the mark of the anarkiddie.

 

[Theodora]

Smugness is the mark of the anarkiddie.

Actually I'm just oblivious as hell, oops soz. <3 T_T

 

[Burning Bridges]

Yeah, there's a lot of overlap there with this pissed housewife trope. Years of un-or-barely-acknowledged work is grating, no matter who it's for. I squarely believe that at the end of the day most of us, whether we're comfortable with it or not, are wanting to feel understood -- we just go about it in very different ways. I've known so many men who are emotionally toddlers despite being terribly smart, expecting their work to speak for them and their intelligence. I'm just really sceptical that that can ever work out, versus the reality that we do share in all being ultimately quite vulnerable, scared creatures on this earth.

Some pages ago you said that your emotional control pathways are severaly damaged. Now you say that most smart men are emotionally toddlers. It all doesn't add up.

Grow up. You are a child.

 

[Theodora]

Some pages ago you said that your emotional control pathways are severaly damaged. Now you say that most smart men are emotionally toddlers. It all doesn't add up.

I didn't say most. I said I've come across many men who are otherwise very smart, but emotionally chose to be very pugnacious and self-repressive. Incels often aren't stupid, just extremely emotionally stubborn -- have you ever looked after a toddler? You'd know what I meant instead of taking it personally when I refer to a type, nothing I claim to be a norm. "Many" does not mean 80% of men, 50%, or even 10%. It means I've come across a lot of people of this sort.

Fwiw, neural damage is about one's own internal experience, it doesn't mean you actively try to make other people feel shit or use them as scapegoats for your own shortcomings.

 

[Grauken]

Some pages ago you said that your emotional control pathways are severaly damaged.

That reminds me of Greg Egan's story Reasons to be Cheerful

 

[Burning Bridges]

I didn't say most. I said I've come across many men who are otherwise very smart, but emotionally chose to be very pugnacious and self-repressive. Incels often aren't stupid, just extremely emotionally stubborn -- have you ever looked after a toddler? You'd know what I meant instead of taking it personally when I refer to a type, nothing I claim to be a norm. "Many" does not mean 80% of men, 50%, or even 10%. It means I've come across a lot of people of this sort.

I find that for someone who demands to be judged without stereotypes, you have a lot of stereotypes.

Why put men in one sentence with incels?

Yes I have looked after toddlers and find them absolutely charming. Nothing to do with incels.

Incels have a different problem. They were pampered by their moms and aunts and never moved on from their warm laps.

Emotionally fucked up, and without faculties for self improvement, they think they are entitled to be the center of the world. That's why they don't hit on women who they think must come to them.

Incels need a good kick in the butt but apparently there was no one there to provide it.

But tbh women who fake weakness and victimhood while clinging to men and society to take care of them are on the same scale even if they are not sexless like incels. I think it is called Cincerella syndrom and it is extremely common. Every man who ever had the pleasure to be responsble for such a drama queen knows how frustrating it is.

 

[Theodora]

I find that for someone who demands to be judged without stereotypes, you have a lot of stereotypes.

Now you're ignoring your original misreading of what I said ('many' is not 'most') and just trying to make me out to be some pampered little princess. I've had to look after myself in most ways since I was a teenager, and don't cling to any fucking man.

I was using incels as an illustration of that combination in its extreme, but it doesn't really matter what I say because you've decided that I'm attacking all men or something. I can't dissuade you of perceiving criticism where it isn't intended.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

That reminds me of Greg Egan's story Reasons to be Cheerful

Egan is very creative sci-fi author, I recommend "Axiomatic" to everyone here.

Didn't read this story though.

Reasons to be Cheerful. A 12-year-old boy develops a deadly brain tumor that inadvertently floods his system with Leu-enkephalin, the neuropeptide that triggers happiness.

seems nice

Grow up. You are a child.

Oh, finally the REAL arguments in this discussion.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I've already recommended this short story in another thread, but y'all should read P. D. Ouspensky's Strange Life of Ivan Osokin.

A small, relevant passage:

"You ask what you are to do. Listen to me attentively. What I am going to say to you is said to a man only once in his life, and even so only to very few men. If a man fails to understand, that is his own fault; it is not repeated. You come here, you complain, and you ask for a miracle. And, when I can, I do what you ask, because I sincerely wish to help you. But nothing comes of it. Try now to understand why nothing comes of it and why I am powerless to help you. Understand that I can carry out only your wishes, only what you ask for. I cannot give you anything on my own initiative. This is the law. Even what I am saying now I am able to say only because you have asked me what you are to do. If you had not asked, I could not have spoken.
"I can add something more to that. If you go back now, everything will be the same as before or worse. For instance, you may not meet me. You must understand that chances are limited; no one has unlimited chances. And you never know when you have used your last chance. On the other hand, if you go on living perhaps something can be changed sufficiently to enable you to start differently the next time."
"Is it worth while living for this?"
"That is your affair. You have to decide for yourself. But remember one thing, if you go back as blind as you are now, you will do the same things again and a repetition of all that happened before is inevitable. You will not escape from the wheel; everything will go on as before. You ask me what you are to do. I answer: live. It is your only chance.
"If you think carefully, you will find in my words all that you need. But if you still want to go back and begin again I will send you back even to the day of your birth, if you like. But I warn you that you will come here again—if you can. Now decide." [...]
"Nothing will change," says the magician.
"What do you mean by saying that nothing will change?" says Osokin. "Everything has changed already."
The magician shakes his head and smiles.
"My dear friend, once more you deceive yourself. Nothing has changed. Everything is exactly the same as it has been up to now, and everything will remain the same. Nothing could change and nothing will change.
"The wind returneth again according to his circuits ... The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done."
"And nothing can be changed?" says Osokin.
"I never said that nothing can be changed. I said that you cannot change anything, and that nothing will change by itself. I have already told you that in order to change anything you must first change yourself. And this is much more difficult than you think. It requires constant effort for a long time and much knowledge. You are incapable of such effort and you do not even know how to start. No one is capable of it by himself. People always repeat the same mistakes. At first they simply do not know that they move in a circle; and if they hear about this idea, they refuse to believe it. Later, if they begin to see the truth of it and accept it, they think that this is all that is necessary; they become fully convinced that now they know all they need to know and that they can change everything. And immediately they find charlatans who assure them that everything is very easy and simple. This is the greatest illusion of all. In this way men lose the chances which they have acquired through much suffering and sometimes even through great effort.
"You must remember that one may know many things and be unable to change anything, because changing requires different knowledge and also something which you do not possess."
"What is the thing we do not possess?"
"This question is very characteristic of you. Like everyone else, you think that you can know everything, when in fact you cannot know anything and cannot understand anything. How can I tell you what it is if it does not exist for you?" [...] I can only add one thing more. Like everyone else, you think that there are different ways of doing the same thing. You have to learn to understand that there is always only one way of doing a thing; there can never be two ways. But you will not come to this easily. For a long time you will have a great deal of inner argument. All this has to be destroyed. Only then will you be ready for real work."

 

[Burning Bridges]

I can't dissuade you of perceiving criticism where it isn't intended.

When have I complained of criticism? Just criticise away.