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Games for people with depression

Alpan

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Of the nature of the depression I mean.

We are not made up of our thoughts, nor our feelings. We are physically-based beings who act upon our environment to effect physical changes on it. Depression happens when we forget this, and place undue emphasis on what goes on in our minds at the expense of action.
 

Burning Bridges

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I believe you're referring to the learned helplessness.

Yes that's exactly what I was looking for. Learned helplessness vs disabilty.

I would say that the vast majority of people, al underachievers in general, have some learned helplessness in some areas and perhaps it's even a biological necessity (you get the easiest jobs if you are the most incompetent person in a group, and can actually turn a handicap into an advantage)
 

Theodora

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I don't believe you can fake a real depression.

I'm not sure either that you can limit the problem to the medical condition.

IME it's kinda obvious when someone is just being lazy, like really blatant, but I'm alll too used to seeing people who really are unwell being told shit like they're not trying to get better -- which comes across as a projection. It can be very frustrating when we don't know how to help the people we care about, and unfortunately mentally ill people often make for great emotional punching bags.

In Lyric Suite's case? There is no question at all! He hates people who are successful especially young men who go into nightclubs and have sex, young attractive women of course and his spirituality is only the last refuge of a bitter, old man. Of course this makes you depressed.

LS is just an incel that's used a thesaurus and read a book or two.
 

Burning Bridges

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Of the nature of the depression I mean.

We are not made up of our thoughts, nor our feelings. We are physically-based beings who act upon our environment to effect physical changes on it. Depression happens when we forget this, and place undue emphasis on what goes on in our minds at the expense of action.

WOW that's great actually, feel free to go on.

:bro:
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Burning Bridges

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This, my newfound friend, is highly speculative ;)

The question wether all mind is matter or actually matter is all mind, is not settled by todays knowledge.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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This, my newfound friend, is highly speculative.
Quantum physics opens a can of worms in that regard, but it's indeed speculative at this point. From a 'traditional' materialist perspective, all that has happened had been determined in advance from the moment the Universe had sprung itself into being and its components started interacting between themselves. We were always meant to be and from the moment we are born, we are thrust into an already established pattern of interaction to which we are subject and from which we have no agency except for the illusory one given by our self-awareness.

And even if we subscribe to such a view (which I do in earnest), we will nonetheless sublimate such thoughts since our self-awareness can only go so far before we are driven insane and/or become suicidal.
 

Theodora

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We are not made up of our thoughts, nor our feelings. We are physically-based beings who act upon our environment to effect physical changes on it. Depression happens when we forget this, and place undue emphasis on what goes on in our minds at the expense of action.
Depression happens because modern living is alienating, and low-key traumatising to everyone involved. If you want to get biological about things, then think about how our minds in no way evolved to deal with the noise and scale and overstimulation and stress of modern living. Nor so much effort dedicated to bullshit with little direct relevance to our survival.

And that's without any specific episodes of violence. I'm sorry if you mean it otherwise but it just comes across as a repackaged form of 'man up'.
 

Alpan

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WOW that's great actually, feel free to go on.

You are kind to say so, but I wouldn't even know how to expand on it. At its core is a simple observation: No other species has to deal with depression. A dog can feel sad, the same way it can feel happy, but it is too busy being immersed in its environment, in action, to engage in the self-reflection necessary to reach long-term depression.

When we're engaged in labor of some kind -- and this can be mental or physical -- we're not at all concerned with how we feel. We don't even notice time passing; the action is the thing that consumes us. It is only during times of idleness that we engage in the activity of trying to make sense of ourselves, or obsess over meaning in our lives.

A Pascal quote is probably more elegant: “All of human unhappiness comes from one single thing: not knowing how to remain at rest in a room.”
 
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Vatnik Wumao
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Depression happens because modern living is alienating, and low-key traumatising to everyone involved. If you want to get biological about things, then think about how our minds in no way evolved to deal with the noise and scale and overstimulation and stress of modern living. Nor so much effort dedicated to bullshit with little direct relevance to our survival.
Pretty much. Modern society is dysgenic for the average genotypes found within our species. Kaczynski wrote well on this issue.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Point 151 of Kaczynski's manifesto: "The social disruption that we see today is certainly not the result of mere chance. It can only be a result of the conditions of life that the system imposes on people. (We have argued that the most important of these conditions is disruption of the power process.) If the systems succeeds in imposing sufficient control over human behavior to assure its own survival, a new watershed in human history will have been passed. Whereas formerly the limits of human endurance have imposed limits on the development of societies (as we explained in paragraphs 143, 144), industrial-technological society will be able to pass those limits by modifying human beings, whether by psychological methods or biological methods or both. In the future, social systems will not be adjusted to suit the needs of human beings. Instead, human beings will be adjusted to suit the needs of the system."
 

Alpan

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Depression happens because modern living is alienating, and low-key traumatising to everyone involved. If you want to get biological about things, then think about how our minds in no way evolved to deal with the noise and scale and overstimulation and stress of modern living. Nor so much effort dedicated to bullshit with little direct relevance to our survival.

This is all correct, but there's an undercurrent of helplessness in your argument that I don't relate to.

I'm sorry if you mean it otherwise but it just comes across as a repackaged form of 'man up'.

We all have a sense of what works, and doesn't work for ourselves. I am unconcerned with how you perceive my point; you don't need to be sorry.
 

Theodora

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This is all correct, but there's an undercurrent of helplessness in your argument that I don't relate to.

It's not helplessness to know firsthand that an act of self-flagelation does no one any good.

Like, no, I don't expect you to relate to the experience of PTSD and co. but there's nothing noblle in fucking youself up (/further) by driving yourself into oblivion in the name of being a good little worker ant.

Casting virtue on work and suffering is just secular Protestantism, the dominant spirit of our times. Arbeit macht frei, brother? (I feel like you missed Verylittlefishes' meaning of spirituality.)

Suffering finds meaning in purpose. Productivity for others sake (and escaping the ever-watchful judge we're all taught to embody) is not that.
 

Alpan

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Casting virtue on work and suffering is just secular Protestantism, the dominant spirit of our times. Arbeit macht frei, brother? (I feel like you missed Verylittlefishes' meaning of spirituality.)

Suffering finds meaning in purpose. Productivity for others sake (and escaping the ever-watchful judge we're all taught to embody) is not that.

I can't respond to this, because you didn't understand what I said.
 

Burning Bridges

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Quantum physics opens a can of worms in that regard, but it's indeed speculative at this point. From a 'traditional' materialist perspective, all that has happened had been determined in advance from the moment the Universe had sprung itself into being and its components started interacting between themselves. We were always meant to be and from the moment we are born, we are thrust into an already established pattern of interaction to which we are subject and from which we have no agency except for the illusory one given by our self-awareness.

And even if we subscribe to such a view (which I do in earnest), we will nonetheless sublimate such thoughts since our self-awareness can only go so far before we are driven insane and/or become suicidal.

I'm more of the position that the only thing we will ever understand is the immediate present, and since the present is constanly changing, our knowledge of such mechanisms cannot be definite. We have however limited ourself by science that posited that anything must be material.

But I very much liked the point of Alpan and you that depression - at least some types of depression - have causes that are taking place in the interplay between the material and the imaginary. We can imagine a world that is terrible and empty, we can also imagine a world that is entirely positive (hubris) but in the actual we "forget" the imaginary and this makes us content as animals.

Or if we avoid derailment into metaphysics, even if human consciousness is non-material, the causes for psychological illness will probably be more in the realm of the "material". (even if material does not actually exist, I think we know what is meant with "material")

No other species has to deal with depression. A dog can feel sad, the same way it can feel happy, but it is too busy being immersed in its environment, in action, to engage in the self-reflection necessary to reach long-term depression.

Dogs can be depressed. I have personally witnessed this when working with blind people during my Zivildienst. Guide dogs quite often develop severe psychological illness and need to be taken out to play by someone who is not the blind person. In that regard, I think dogs are the worst example you can take, because their psychology is the most similar to humans in the animal kingdom. If you completely deny a dog the ability to do the things that are natural to him, which is often blocked by training, he will become very much depressed.

Dolphins also get depressed and even suicidal when separated from other dolphins. There was a very interesting episode in Jacques Cousteau, where a dolphin stopped eating until they gave her a companion.

Furthermore even if we agree that this is a major cause of depression, there are types that come from too much activity. Depression is not a new condition, in the past depression was called "overburdening". During WW2 for example many officers had to be relegated from duty due to overburdening and in soldiers this was called "lack of morale fibre". Those people were not exactly treated well but it was accepted that this condition existed.

Burn-out comes from "too much forced, unwanted activity" instead of "too much thought". I would say that a depressed person that realizes they are blocked by pessimism and takes on too many things will relapse into burnout. So it's more about doing a few things that are in your nature and not necessarily doing too many things that you don't want.

When we're engaged with labor of some kind -- and this can be mental or physical -- we're not at all concerned with how we feel. We don't even notice time passing; the action is the thing that consumes us. It is only during times of idleness that we engage in the activity of trying to make sense of ourselves, or obsess over meaning in our lives.

A Pascal quote is probably more elegant: “All of human unhappiness comes from one single thing: not knowing how to remain at rest in a room.”

Yes, absolutely.

Although some people will object that if you simply cannot engage in any kind of activity, this solution is no longer available to you.

I am just of the group who wants to relentlessly keep pushing to at least do something, because I don't believe that many people are really incapable of doing anything.[/QUOTE]
 

Theodora

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I can't respond to this, because you didn't understand what I said.

I mean, I know what learned helplessness is, I just don't agree that it's the same as knowing your limits. There's a healthy kind of pushing against your known capabilities, and then there's making things worse by completely ignoring past experience.
 

samuraigaiden

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My game suggestion for somebody in a severe depressive state would be something like Peggle or Bejeweled. Those types of games are designed to get the juices in your brain flowing.

No videogame will cure your depression, they might even enable you to not treat it which is bad.

Objectively the best suggestion for somebody who suffers from depression is to either do some physical exercise or some productive activity.
 
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Alpan

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I mean, I know what learned helplessness is, I just don't agree that it's the same as knowing your limits. There's a healthy kind of pushing against your known capabilities, and then there's making things worse by completely ignoring past experience.

I see what you mean, but my point was simpler, and was not referencing productivity or the work ethic.

It was this: You may be depressed, but you're less depressed while writing these posts, by sole virtue of you being engaged in the mental act of concentrated focus and the physical act of putting the words into the screen. The moment you stop and think, though -- that's when it gets worse.
 

Burning Bridges

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IME it's kinda obvious when someone is just being lazy, like really blatant, but I'm alll too used to seeing people who really are unwell being told shit like they're not trying to get better -- which comes across as a projection. It can be very frustrating when we don't know how to help the people we care about, and unfortunately mentally ill people often make for great emotional punching bags.

I do that, but only when someone is whining and confabulating. When someone actually considers what he could do I try to give him new ideas like play Tropico, it made me go on holidays to Spain and learn Spanish, when I had felt very down.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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I mean, I know what learned helplessness is, I just don't agree that it's the same as knowing your limits. There's a healthy kind of pushing against your known capabilities, and then there's making things worse by completely ignoring past experience.

I see what you mean, but my point was simpler, and was not referencing productivity or the work ethic.

It was this: You may be depressed, but you're less depressed while writing these posts, by sole virtue of you being engaged in the mental act of concentrated focus and the physical act of putting the words into the screen. The moment you stop and think, though -- that's when it gets worse.
For the man who wants to be free, the only reality is life under siege for life out of tune...~
 

Theodora

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It was this: You may be depressed, but you're less depressed while writing these posts, by sole virtue of you being engaged in the mental act of concentrated focus and the physical act of putting the words into the screen. The moment you stop and think, though -- that's when it gets worse.

There's certainly something to that, but it comes across as another case of every-day-depression-under-capital vs. chronic mentall-illness as a disibility. I think that's actually a huge part of the problem, people thinking advice from the former can be universally applied in the latter. (I'm not accusing you of this, so much as trying to point out the cross wires running throughout this entire thread.)

Though I think we can all agree it's better to be doing something, almost anything, if the alternative is staring at walls or crying at nothing in particular.

For the man who wants to be free, the only reality is life under siege for life out of tune...~
Embracing the Absurd is a valuable ally in dealing with the ridiculousness of existing.
 

Theodora

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I do that, but only when someone is whining and confabulating. When someone actually considers what he could do I try to give him new ideas like play Tropico, it made me go on holidays to Spain and learn Spanish, when I had felt very down.

It's interesting that you bring up positing ideas. Supposedly on average, when men have a problem, they're looking for advice and solutions; and when women have a problem, they're wanting to feel understood/heard. (And thus, a propensity to misfire when working with the opposite gender. Though this is a generalisation, I find it a very interesting one.)
 

Alpan

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I am just of the group who wants to relentlessly keep pushing to at least do something, because I don't believe that many people are really incapable of doing anything.

Exactly. In my life I have certainly benefited from pushing myself out of my comfort zone time and again. There are rarely situations in life where the boundaries of a problem are well-determined in advance, and this applies to personal problems as well. Some amount of struggle is a necessity for real learning. I have invariably found real-world experience, success, and failure far more helpful than reflexive aversion and mental projections in navigating the treacheries of life.
 

Burning Bridges

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It's interesting that you bring up positing ideas. Supposedly on average, when men have a problem, they're looking for advice and solutions; and when women have a problem, they're wanting to feel understood/heard. (And thus, a propensity to misfire when working with the opposite gender. Though this is a generalisation, I find it a very interesting one.)

Absolutely correct.

But a bit of male problem solving has not done woman any harm, not has a bit of moral comfort done any man harm.
 

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