Games for people with depression

[Burning Bridges]

It's interesting that you bring up positing ideas. Supposedly on average, when men have a problem, they're looking for advice and solutions; and when women have a problem, they're wanting to feel understood/heard. (And thus, a propensity to misfire when working with the opposite gender. Though this is a generalisation, I find it a very interesting one.)

Absolutely correct.

But a bit of male problem solving has not done woman any harm, not has a bit of moral comfort done any man harm.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I am just of the group who wants to relentlessly keep pushing to at least do something, because I don't believe that many people are really incapable of doing anything.

Exactly. In my life I have certainly benefited from pushing myself out of my comfort zone time and again. There are rarely situations in life where the boundaries of a problem are well-determined in advance, and this applies to personal problems as well. Some amount of struggle is a necessity for real learning. I have invariably found real-world experience, success, and failure far more helpful than reflexive aversion and mental projections in navigating the treacheries of life.

I would even say in this regard our experience is largely determined before the fact. Often when I have completely convinced myself that I will succeed every experience that comes from it will be easy, productive and positive. Whereas if I have strong doubts I am doomed to inactivity, or give up before really trying.

And there is of course also this additional delta, the things that we did not expect and could have never thought of, that always emerge when we do something we didn't want to try.

It's of course not easy to push only in one direction, nor is it possible at all time. Not even necessary. It's already enough to fully accept that success and disappointments are largely determined beforehand, and we must believe in our ability to learn and take our fortune in our own hands.

 

[Alpan]

There's certainly something to that, but it comes across as another case of every-day-depression-under-capital vs. chronic mentall-illness as a disibility. I think that's actually a huge part of the problem, people thinking advice from the former can be universally applied in the latter. (I'm not accusing you of this, so much as trying to point out the cross wires running throughout this entire thread.)

I actually understand perfectly, because I have known the kinds of people you mention. There are indeed very severely depressed people in the world, the catatonic, worst of all the psychotic... those people certainly have it rough, and some I've known among them are as fundamentally broken as anything can be in this world. To be frank though, I don't think the people frequenting this thread are anywhere near that level (there may be a few such cases on the Codex), and certainly those unfortunates are far-placed from asking game suggestions or debating the finer points of what constitutes mental illness and what doesn't under capitalist mode of production.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It's of course not easy to push only in one direction, nor is it possible at all time. Not even necessary. It's already enough to fully accept that success and disappointments are largely determined beforehand, and we must believe in our ability to learn and take our fortune in our own hands.

 

[Burning Bridges]

When we're engaged in labor of some kind -- and this can be mental or physical -- we're not at all concerned with how we feel. We don't even notice time passing; the action is the thing that consumes us. It is only during times of idleness that we engage in the activity of trying to make sense of ourselves, or obsess over meaning in our lives.

A Pascal quote is probably more elegant: “All of human unhappiness comes from one single thing: not knowing how to remain at rest in a room.”

I am not a very well read man, and eg Nietzsche will only elicit childish daftness from me, especially as I find his language hilarious.

But I had to think that this is largely Jack London's philosophy. Imo London was an extremely sentimental, alcoholic and possibly depressed person, who was fascinated with wolves and any kind of action, and created himself as the perfect man of adventure.

He eventually failed as a human, ruined his health and allowed himself to be exploited by others, which may require further thought on the man, and what he may have done wrong on his way.

But the point is that imo it would be much more inspiring to study Jack London instead of the dusty old tomes, like Nietzsche, Schopenhauer and the whole shebang.

It's not helplessness to know firsthand that an act of self-flagelation does no one any good.

Like, no, I don't expect you to relate to the experience of PTSD and co. but there's nothing noblle in fucking youself up (/further) by driving yourself into oblivion in the name of being a good little worker ant.

Casting virtue on work and suffering is just secular Protestantism, the dominant spirit of our times. Arbeit macht frei, brother? (I feel like you missed Verylittlefishes' meaning of spirituality.)

Suffering finds meaning in purpose. Productivity for others sake (and escaping the ever-watchful judge we're all taught to embody) is not that.

In the same line, you may be pouring out the baby with the bathwater here. It's not about self-flagellation, protestantism, even fascicm, but just discovering the power of animal freedom, like wolves in particular.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Productivity for others sake (and escaping the ever-watchful judge we're all taught to embody) is not that.

But productivity makes you happy. "Arbeit macht Frei" is not even a fascist statement, it was just the context of cynically putting it over a work-extermination camp that made it notorious.

But without the fascist context "Arbeit macht Frei" is a very true and wise statement. The question just remains how much work a depressed person can handle without mistreating themselves. And my suggestion is to try out and stop when you are feeling unwell, instead of deciding that it is not worth trying at all.

 

[Alpan]

But I had to think that this is largely Jack London's philosophy. Imo London was an extremely sentimental, alcoholic and possibly depressed person, who was fascinated with wolves and any kind of action, and created himself as the perfect man of adventure.

I have not read Jack London myself, but I definitely owe parts of my personal philosophy to John N. Gray, a British philosopher. But don't let this mislead you; he writes for the public, and is eminently readable. I would recommend Straw Dogs (2002) as a starting point, if you're interested.

But I had to think that this is largely Jack London's philosophy. Imo London was an extremely sentimental, alcoholic and possibly depressed person, who was fascinated with wolves and any kind of action, and created himself as the perfect man of adventure.

Before I gave the "dog" example in my one of my above posts, I actually considered wolves instead, because I had the misgivings that you later confirmed (about dogs being susceptible to depression). I decided against it, because I thought it would have been unrealistic -- I guess I should have listened to my gut!

 

[Burning Bridges]

I will have a look for sure.

There is a lot in Sea Wolf that is extremely psychological, Wolf Larsen being the literal brute Übermensch which London (impersonated as Van Weyden) tries to copy and integrate in his own, neurotic personality. Or James Barleycorn where he deals with the causes of his alcoholism.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

But I had to think that this is largely Jack London's philosophy. Imo London was an extremely sentimental, alcoholic and possibly depressed person, who was fascinated with wolves and any kind of action, and created himself as the perfect man of adventure.

I have not read Jack London myself, but I definitely owe parts of my personal philosophy to John N. Gray, a British philosopher. But don't let this mislead you; he writes for the public, and is eminently readable. I would recommend Straw Dogs (2002) as a starting point, if you're interested.

But I had to think that this is largely Jack London's philosophy. Imo London was an extremely sentimental, alcoholic and possibly depressed person, who was fascinated with wolves and any kind of action, and created himself as the perfect man of adventure.

Before I gave the "dog" example in my one of my above posts, I actually considered wolves instead, because I had the misgivings that you later confirmed (about dogs being susceptible to depression). I decided against it, because I thought it would have been unrealistic -- I guess I should have listened to my gut!

I thought for a moment that you meant "Straw Dogs" movie from 1971 and that was a twisted thought, sir.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Winston Churchill also suffered from depression, and was quite open about it. He may be another good example how people have fared chosing the path of action instead of brooding.

My theory is that a large portion of great people, writers, generals, politicians, suffered from depression and often gave good insight into how it can be dealt with. Whenever I see that some great person had severe alcoholism or substance abuse, combined with great creativity (Ulysses S. Grant would be another example), it is good candidate for looking for depression.

 

[Theodora]

My theory is that a large portion of great people, writers, generals, politicians, suffered from depression and often gave good insight into how it can be dealt with. Whenever I see that some great person had severe alcoholism or substance abuse, combined with great creativity (Ulysses S. Grant would be another example), it is good candidate for looking for depression.

What's the theory, sorry?

I don't think I can talk about this without being perceived as a whinge about how men's depression / mental illness is generally treated differently; but at the very least I'd like to ask you to consider the common thread of not talking about one's issues in a normal sense, and how that often comes out instead as alcoholism or similar (a trait for which many a relative often pays).

We romanticise self-destructive behaviour, which that kinda 'shrug off pain' stance surely falls under in one way or another. The ultra-masculine Hemingway killed himself for a reason.

Intimacy and connection are the opposite of alienation; and while putting on a brave face has its purpose, it can't solve anything by itself, and can definitely make a problem worse by further adding to the layers between expression and the authentic 'self' (inasfar as that exists at all).

 

[Burning Bridges]

I don't think I understand the question.

Yes, men, especially at times when this was not considered a proper state to be in, cannot afford to be depressed. And they often flee into action, followed by substance abuse (alcoholism).

Are you saying that alcoholism is harmful? Of course it is. But why does someone relentlessly drink alcohol, smoke tobacco or drink 60 cups of coffee (Beethoven)? Depression is not the only possible cause, but it can go hand in hand, especially if said person left behind many strong expressions of moodiness, which a large number of famous people did.

The theory is only that many such people have fled into action and it blocked out their brooding. Of course there are many other factors but my theory is that many of those people were extremely depressed whenever they had nothing to do, and had to drink/smoke relentlessly.

 

[Theodora]

Are you saying that alcoholism is harmful? Of course it is. But why does someone relentlessly drink alcohol, smoke tobacco or drink 60 cups of coffee (Beethoven)?

Not meant to be the focus -- I can't criticise anyone for addiction, my main point is that when people try to put a lock on their suffering instead of letting it out, it can cause them to self-harm, and a common way this self-harm can hurt others is via the likes of alcohol. There's nothing inherent in alcohol to make people behave badly, but it can let out people's demons, and make them abusive towards their families, etc.

Basically, 'man up' mode implies 'locking up' emotionally so as to not let the 'act' slip, and this tends to drive 'worse' (i.e. less healthy) coping habits -- and in some ways and situations can create new issues, especially as insecurity about dropping the mask piles up. The bottom line is the bravery asked of a man to be comfortable with his emotions and suffering is better served than than in trying to hide, or simply 'work over' them.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Basically, 'man up' mode implies 'locking up' emotionally so as to not let the 'act' slip, and this tends to drive 'worse' (i.e. less healthy) coping habits

No it doesn't. It just means being tougher on yourself and hopefully find out that it isn't so tough afterall. It means living instead of just vegetating.

 

[Theodora]

No it doesn't. It just means being tougher on yourself and hopefully find out that it isn't so tough afterall. It means living instead of just vegetating.

I feel like if that were true, people talking about shit wouldn't be met wiith a presumption that they were doing nothing but 'whining'. I've never seen that thinking applied without either-or stuff.

You can push yourself to act without falling into that -- e.g. work on taking better care of your health, fixing things like sleep hygiene, etc. -- like, does 'being tougher on yourself' not inevitably suggest emotionally beating yourself up when you fail to achieve whatever you inner critic is feeling that you ought to be capable of?

 

[jebsmoker]

any of scs software's trucking sim games are great for diverting your attention away from various anxieties that eat away at you relentlessly. they are extremely chill, and nothing compares to soaking in a sunrise or sunset as you take on the open road.

for games that have actual meditations on life, depression, disappointment, failure, and success: disco elysium or planescape: torment

 

[Beastro]

People like incels and 'doomers' who wallow in self-pity are unwilling to change

I can agree with this and see it often.

Too many underestimate what a power drug pity can become.

As for those who are willing, they can change by enduring, not by opening up to a therapist and yapping their mouth about their feelings akin to a housewife.

But not this.

Talking can help orient you and does so in ways that at first don't make sense. Simply doing what is needed often isn't enough, especially when your disposition leads you into undermining yourself doing things that are nominally good and would help, but they are being counter-productive. Being hard on yourself and always pushing for improvement can be good, but you get the positive feedback loop going negative, then you need to stop and think.

The problem there is simple thought and self-reflection often aren't enough. Vocalizing, especially to someone else comes with things that you cannot do talking alone or in your own mind. Whatever impact those thoughts have, they cannot have the full impact that comes with saying them to someone else's face, and that isn't a simple "Letting it out" thing, it also helps hammer things home and have them sink in.

The silly thing often is, the therapist doesn't need top say anything, the person just needs someone else there and the therapist there to keep them from straying into digression and naval gazing.

One must ask ultimately way people like housewives do that, and that it might not be a bad thing in an of itself, but they stray into bad territory of echo chambering and turning conversation into rumination no different than their inner monologue. There the problem is again missing the point to hammer home and confront the issue at hand to allow you to move on, it's just from another extreme.

Therapists just open a Pandora's box in their patients' heads.

From what I've seen in my life, such people do the exact opposite. They are constantly shutting down stray lines of thinking and working to reorient their patients state of mind to focus.

That does not mean some therapists don't do what you say, but those are bad therapists. If they are there to milk people, then they're no different than massage therapists that I clearly detected were trying to draw out my number of sessions in order to make the most out of.

That a massage therapist can do that doesn't mean one must assume all massage therapists are that way, nor that that is all there is to massage therapy and the good it can do.

While it is true that average therapist would not understand intellectual problems of reclusive genius (which are obviously dwell in Codex) he could understand and solve the basic stupidly simplistic problems with head which consist 99% of everything (see incel thread)

Why?

A decent therapist would clearly see the problems of reclusive genius is the fact that they need to get the fuck out of their mind more and act in the world. They can keep their deep thoughts, but maybe they should spend less time sitting in reflection and do something like volunteer at a soup kitchen to break the bind their in.

The eternal danger of the intellectual is that they always assume they can think their way out of things, and I speak from personal experience here.

As said Magnat, get prescribed pills by a psychiatrist if you need 'em or just man up if your problems are of mind(set) and not of body.

It hinges on how you man up.

The issue isn't "just do it" but how one goes about doing what is needed.

People who are prone to being hard on themselves don't mind treating themselves as a square peg in a round hole needing pushed through. Their problem is they're so hard they cannot stop and sort themselves out enough to turn themselves into a round peg that will fit with less effort unnecessarily wasted, but how can they do that if their focus is to never stop and just keep forcing things?

I get what you mean, but you need proper orientation in life, or else you're some stupid soldier who sprays and prays with his rifle and never hits his target when a good properly placed single shot would hit its mark.

Think of re-contextualizing this Far Side comic as the kid not being an idiot but rather someone trying so hard to excel and is so worked up and anxiousness to get to class and be perfect that he doesn't stop pushing, calm the fuck down and try to see if there's something that might help him get in when it's clear what he's doing isn't working, like simply looking up and reading the sign.

 

[Beastro]

There's something very comforting about games like that when you're barely holding things together.

Fighting a losing battle knowing you're never going to make it out is a wonderful thrill.

A favourite of mine was doing base defence in WWII Online trying to hold out for as long as I could to delay the bases capture.... the but best thing about doing that was the rare time the losing battle turned out to not be lost.

For me it's more a terrible, unshakeable feeling of guilt that basically stops me looking after myself. Any act of self-kindness — but especially something time consuming like video games — ends up feeling self-indulgent and lazy. I know that attempts to beat myself productive rarely work and instead tend to just rush towards another burnout, but it's very hard to do otherwise in the moment. Learned moralisms suck.

The moralisms aren't the bad thing, it's how you're applying it.

That is a good quality in you to care in that way, it's just that you're taking it too far.

I think the physicality of it might be why there's no single, accepted medical treatment, nevermind a solution.

Treatment implies a form of generalized care. In the case of something like this, the problem is so specialization of the problem can make all treats in their face perform badly and they need little tweeks to work.

The problem is sorting through them to find what tweeks work and what treatments are simply dead ends. This is where self-care in important and not being a passive patient (Though with this I know that then inverts and leaves you open to overthinking yet again).

Not being a whiny bitch helps a lot and playing games in which your cool dude slays monsters and gets awesome treasures helps a lotter

Stop being a fucking child and have a proper conversation on this board with someone of an opposing view for once.

For underachieving, but psychologically normal people it is just a means of engaging in woe-is-me behavior without feeling ashamed for being a self-indulgent whiner.

Such people then are not psychologically normal and therapists are wary of such people.

I know that. I have family deep in the self-pity pit that are effectively cut off from therapy and other help because it's clear they do not want to go anywhere good in their life to get better, and because of that, that is now yet another layer of "People don't care about me" they have added on as they down the bitter drink of pity.

I mean, we're talking someone suicidal and they won't even do ECT, and it's because he needs to want to pull himself out of this and show proper action to warrant the help.

If they just wanted to bilk him they wouldn't give a fuck.

As for your point on psychiatrists 'generously prescribing Feel-Good pills', that is just as much a part of my critique of unnecessary therapy. By applying this sort of misguided biological determinism to human behavior, you end up making a pathology out of every deviant behavior, even when it is a result of poor thought rather than poor (mental) health.

You assume it's determinism rather than people with limited resources trying to do as much good as can be done with what they have available, especially when you factor in the demand that they have to produce some results at least to show that something is being done about the issue.

It reminds me of people who do nothing for their own health, then go to the doctor, lay back yell "Fix me!".

In this topic, there isn't enough going around to properly help everyone and it falls to each person to realize that and work to do what they can to help themselves while making the most of the help given to them.

Then we could get into the societal issues of how people perceive problems in the modern world. Pain = bad. I feel bad = make me not feel bad. Such things then cloud the issue and make it hard for everyone to distinguish the genuine cases from the ones you speak of, but I could go on forever about that.

The suicides are for the latter alone, and are mere statistics. This isn't abour me, but the severity of trauma (especially at a young age) on the brain. It's erroneous to dismiss this shit for people as just being an attitudes thing when it's a literal disability that manifests physically in the body.

Be very wary of the essence of what they're warning about though.

To put it one way: For someone who is raped it is neither good to act as if the event never happened, but it is equally bad for them to sit there thinking over and over 24/7 "I was raped! I was raped! I was raped!".

The wind path lies between somewhere of recognizing trauma while working to let go of what you can.

brains are spooks, humans are seine ran by will zu macht alone

Ok, Sheep.

Make yourself eat your own shit once a day and make yourself like it.

Go on. Do it.

Don't want to? Why? Is it your choice not to? You control the revulsion of the idea of doing that, do you?

You know you don't for the same reason you dislike everything else you dislike and like what you do like.

And this isn't me being a determinist by any measure.

Biological determinism, in lack of the observer's omniscience, does not absolve people of being morally judged for their actions.

By the same measure it doesn't make their life any easier.

With that said, it does no good either to willfully ignore when a problem repeatedly manifests itself in ones life.

 

[Beastro]

(And no, all my diagnoses are 'real', by multiple doctors each, re-diagnosed years apart. -- I'm not detailing what I went through to end up this way, but it comes across as kinda arrogant to tell me it's bs without the faintest idea of its reality. I had to prove this stuff to get my permanent visa, and Australian immigration does everything it possibly can to kick you out. So if I passed that test, there's very little out there that will dismiss my experiences as fake or exaggerated.)

Add in the fact that ultimately, there's little difference in such matters between the lying people rib others over here and the prevalent shitposting they do themselves.

When it comes to this topic, the tranny talk coming your way in ShoutBox and what is ultimately true with regard to you, you ultimately know the truth and why you are posting here and what you are posting about.

The roommate anecdote reminds me of how when I had taken Ambien I wandered into my sleeping roommate's room naked because Ambien-me was annoyed by all the people having a party in his room. In reality the room was empty except for my sleeping roommate, but outside of the door I heard the loudest party with tons of visitors and clinking glasses...

Ambien-Jasede sounds like a model Codexer.

then that 15% off can be compensated through one's character.

Even ones agency has its limits and there's only so much ones character can compensate in that way.

And it is also helpful to consider that many people in such a situation as Theo are already doing that to their fullest and making the best of their bad situation.

From what I've seen of agency, it's not as strong as people assume, but that is part of the problem. People expect it to turn their life around in a dime, and when it doesn't that give up and assume nothing can be done, because they can't fix themselves RIGHT NOW.

I can only say that I think the majority of such cases are exagerated. In fact the vast majority of people hate going to work and are under extreme psychological stress at the workplace, if we could all become medical invalids by a neurological test, 90% of the population could realize they are entitled to one too.

Try considering that a good amount of them are people ripping themselves apart for not being in the work force doing their part they feel they should be doing.

They want to do that and get the stress from it (There are different kinds of stress, oxytocin is a stress hormone for a reason), the problem is how they can get there.

I find this degree of radical scepticism odd ...

Nothing is true unless proven, and even then it's probably doctored. Everything is a false flag. One can only assume ones bias' are true.

Welcome to the internet of our times.

Can't speak for others, but I think depending on your where you are from there are varying degree's of acceptance of mental afflictions as really real and if you don't have three levels of doctor certificates people will believe you're faking it to some degree or other. Thought I think it's also an age think, older generation are usually more of the, you have to toughen it out, keep it together, don't talk about it or even show it, whereas younger people are more open about it these days, talking and accepting it

There's good to the older mentality. It's an issue of when to apply one or the other.

Sometimes people are locked in a cage they can't escape from, but unless someone is there to prod them to keep trying find a way out, they may never realize that one day the door suddenly opened up and they never realized they could be free.

False equivalence. Depression, when (wrongly) self-diagnosed, is most often a cope for not accomplishing what you'd like to achieve in your life (socially, financially etc) because of moral deficiencies, chief of which is laziness.

And since y'all seem to think that I'm promoting some sort of black and white view of things, I should emphasize that I acknowledge the value of leisure.

Whatever the case that they're dealing with it then becomes if forcing the issue is the most effective way to get them help, or if it is even a help at all.

I do know many of those I know from older generations. They got stuff done and I commend them, but they had issues and those issues had a wide and negative impact on their lives. If things can be done to better mitigate or eliminate those sorts of things in people today then it's a good thing, but that should not be inverted.

As for people who are living cushy with BS things, even if they're self-convinced, they're not doing well, they're just suffering in different ways. Deeper ones, IMO. Lack of function in life is a nightmare they will never realize they walked in the front door embracing.

Jasede, you are once more missing my point. I do not deny the existence of clinical depression, only its spread among all of those that claim to be suffering of it.

And the spread may very well be true.

Whether or not its valid, the fact people are embracing it is itself a sign of something really wrong going on, and that then raises the question of why it's happening.

One part could be modern society allowing them the ability to not have to do what would help, it could be altering the social plane enough people are dying in a mental health way from the changes wrought on the world.

One thing I'm certain of is it's a loss of belief, and no, not just simple religious belief but belief in general. I mean we have mass withdraw from society with people giving up on tangible things life in many ways. Why is that happening?

The invisibility really is the problem. The lay observer has no tools to distinguish mental illness from conceited displays. Like many issues to do with individual justice, we can only accept the frauds and fakes where excluding them would inevitably also catch the genuine article.

It's a similar issue with pain. I've got a chronic pain problem and have run into people who have only had stubbed toes in life. To them such pain is literal incomprehensible, and so they refuse to consider that it might exist in others.

This is where suffering is a good thing in life, if only to teach us through life experience the pain others are possibly living with every moment of their life.

Well, you know the story of the boy that cried 'wolf'.

If people suspect that they are depressed, they should go and get themselves diagnosed by a professional instead of self-diagnosing.

IMO, the bigger problem is people not even realizing that they are. They are walking on a broken leg not realizing it can be set and healed.

I ran into something similar with my jaw. Looking back on the warning signs, it took a good year or two for me to realize I even had a problem. That came from a random blood test showing liver damage from me taking too much tylenol, as I was doing the manning up and just sucking down the pain without realizing it was increasing over time and impairing my ability to think.

I would agree more if healthcare more generally was free/affordable, or not often shit when it was (like I said above re: avoiding diagnosing me with anything helpful bc it would harm their stats). Northern European, and especially British, doctors I've found to be increeedibly patronising,

That's never going to be attained to the degree that would help. The help is generalized, like handing out money between the masses to help that amounts to 5 dollars each. It's depressing itself, but as my GP once said "The only highly effective means of treatment anything cost money". There's a reason for that.

 

[Beastro]

I think the point you are missing is that absolutely everyone has depression.

And if more and more on a spacecraft are suffering from hypoxia it could very well mean there's a problem with a ventilation system somewhere, even, if the crew have a few known hypochondriacs onboard.

The thing that bothers me is the attitude. I'm sick and tired of people, especially young, healthy people going on and on about how incapacitated they are by some trauma. I can accept if someone suffers from depression and needs special limits on how much he has to performs, but first I want to see what you do, not what you can't do. If you tell your therapist it would be absolutely impossible to go out of the house, he will say that absolutely everyone can go out for 5 minutes. Then you go out and normally 5 minutes turn into 1 hour and afterwards you feel better. If you come back after 5 minutes, I would considere it still a minor success and leave you alone. But don't expect me to believe your level is 0, except if you are an 70 year old ex heroine addict.

This is what I find interesting about the use of language.

How many times do you hear someone say back to someone else "I'm sorry, I can't do that" compared to "I'm sorry, I won't do that". You ask for help, or someone asks you, you know which one to expect.

We like to think we have less choice than we do, because it protects us from furthering a conflict when we don't want to do something, but how much of this is a symptom of the same problem we're facing?

has some superficial truth because of capitalism's shared bs, I don't think it's the same to know you're useless for the rest of a day, vs. "I don't know if I'll ever be my old self again."

That's not capitalism's bs, that's decent, conscientious and industrious people knowing they should do more and those qualities are inverting and doing more harm than good when those qualities are good in and of themselves.

I see this the most in my family. No one can make a standard higher or demand more from us than we do ourselves. We are a terrible martinet to ourselves and we'd be disgusted and shocked by if we saw someone treating someone else that way.

Casting virtue on work and suffering is just secular Protestantism, the dominant spirit of our times.

In my experience the dominant spirit of our times is that one deserves to be happy and that happiness is our natural state - if you are not happy something is wrong with you, and you need to work on becoming happy.

Happiness is just one facet of the human condition and obsessing about one facet fucks one up. We all know that. If it wasn't so addicts would be heralded as saints worthy of emulation by all.

Suffering can be a virtue, just as happiness can be a glorious joy, but it depends on what kind. The man who refuses all help and carries everything by himself rather than humbling himself to use a vehicle to do more without breaking his body is just as bad as the lazy fuck who drives everywhere and goes out of his not to exert his body.

It's not helplessness to know firsthand that an act of self-flagelation does no one any good.

That is true, but you know yourself if pessimism is a demon always gnawing at your heart.

Dogs can be depressed. I have personally witnessed this when working with blind people during my Zivildienst. Guide dogs quite often develop severe psychological illness and need to be taken out to play by someone who is not the blind person. In that regard, I think dogs are the worst example you can take, because their psychology is the most similar to humans in the animal kingdom. If you completely deny a dog the ability to do the things that are natural to him, which is often blocked by training, he will become very much depressed.

Dolphins also get depressed and even suicidal when separated from other dolphins. There was a very interesting episode in Jacques Cousteau, where a dolphin stopped eating until they gave her a companion.

It's safe to saw the more intelligent the living being, the more prone to depression it can be.

Related I believe in some way is that the more intelligent a living being is, the more capacity for malevolence there is, though I'd say that's largely restricted to Mankind, chimp murder gangs and dolphin rape gangs not withstanding.

Burn-out comes from "too much forced, unwanted activity" instead of "too much thought". I would say that a depressed person that realizes they are blocked by pessimism and takes on too many things will relapse into burnout. So it's more about doing a few things that are in your nature and not necessarily doing too many things that you don't want.

There's more than that: The opposite of over-exertion isn't rest, it's atrophy.

All those true blue, excuse making lying fucks are no getting off easy, they are suffering in other ways, and sadly don't even realize it.

I am just of the group who wants to relentlessly keep pushing to at least do something, because I don't believe that many people are really incapable of doing anything.

[/QUOTE]

And the world needs folks like you, just temper it with mercy. Same goes for the merciful on the other end, they need to temper their mercy with hardness.

I see what you mean, but my point was simpler, and was not referencing productivity or the work ethic.

It was this: You may be depressed, but you're less depressed while writing these posts, by sole virtue of you being engaged in the mental act of concentrated focus and the physical act of putting the words into the screen. The moment you stop and think, though -- that's when it gets worse.

There are those though that are drained by this, or rather, this is simply not the best use of their resources.

I've run into their with chronic pain: It will not shut up.

I can appreciate the pain doc for pushing concentration on other things as a means of distracting one from pain, but for me the pain pulls and taxes my concentration making things far harder than they are. I can deal with that doing things I need to do, but for others, I notice a decline. I've practically stopped playing games as a result and many other forms of relaxation.

The simile I for this sort of thing is like being locked in a room with a broken fire alarm that can't be turned off, then being told to meditate or distract yourself to make the sound go away. You might be able to do that for awhile, but then years go by and your mountain is eaten away like rain drops falling on it over millions of years.

It's interesting that you bring up positing ideas. Supposedly on average, when men have a problem, they're looking for advice and solutions; and when women have a problem, they're wanting to feel understood/heard. (And thus, a propensity to misfire when working with the opposite gender. Though this is a generalisation, I find it a very interesting one.)

There's also that both need the other in some degree. Women need advice and solutions and not to feel understood/heard and men need to the opposite. Anyone who doubts that about a guy, consider a decent hard working dude who feels underappreciated at his job that has resentment and bitterness infect his life, something that could easily be dispelled by a little acknowledgement from his superiors even if he gets nothing tangible from it but a pant on the back.

Someone might have a shit job, but hearing someone agree it's shit, but it needs done can make a big difference here and there.

I would even say in this regard our experience is largely determined before the fact. Often when I have completely convinced myself that I will succeed every experience that comes from it will be easy, productive and positive. Whereas if I have strong doubts I am doomed to inactivity, or give up before really trying.

This is the evil of abuse and chronic misfortune. It jams pessimism down your throat.

But I had to think that this is largely Jack London's philosophy. Imo London was an extremely sentimental, alcoholic and possibly depressed person, who was fascinated with wolves and any kind of action, and created himself as the perfect man of adventure.

Pascal was a deeply ill man his entire life who died at 39 and should have died earlier. An autopsy of his body afterwards showed lesions in many parts of his body, though no illness has been determined.

Nietzsche had his illnesses, and IMO, sought liberation from them. Pascal embraced them. He was not pessimistic, he came to terms with his lot in life and did what he could be more than just a sick man.

As someone who's suffered from chronic illness for over 25 years and wasn't certain of being alive at my age, I can commend both for what they accomplished in their lives, but Pascal had an optimism to his life despite the cards he was dealt.

 

[Beastro]

Yes, men, especially at times when this was not considered a proper state to be in, cannot afford to be depressed. And they often flee into action, followed by substance abuse (alcoholism).

Not just them; no one can afford to be depressed more than a mother.

That's what I've thought of men and women. The curse and boon of men is being able to throw themselves at other things, even throw their life away. Women must endure things beyond their control, if only the lack of choice when it comes to labour.

No it doesn't. It just means being tougher on yourself and hopefully find out that it isn't so tough afterall. It means living instead of just vegetating.

I feel like if that were true, people talking about shit wouldn't be met wiith a presumption that they were doing nothing but 'whining'. I've never seen that thinking applied without either-or stuff.

You can push yourself to act without falling into that -- e.g. work on taking better care of your health, fixing things like sleep hygiene, etc. -- like, does 'being tougher on yourself' not inevitably suggest emotionally beating yourself up when you fail to achieve whatever you inner critic is feeling that you ought to be capable of?

No, for the same reason being merciful on yourself isn't the same as excuse making and molly coddling yourself.

 

[Twiglard]

No other species has to deal with depression. A dog can feel sad, the same way it can feel happy, but it is too busy being immersed in its environment, in action, to engage in the self-reflection necessary to reach long-term depression.

That is factually incorrect. Cats get depressed.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

what the hell is this thread even about anymore. why do you people go on so long about this pointless shit?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

what the hell is this thread even about anymore. why do you people go on so long about this pointless shit?

 

[Verylittlefishes]

what the hell is this thread even about anymore. why do you people go on so long about this pointless shit?