Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

George Ziets opening a new RPG studio - Digimancy Entertainment

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,381
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
G Ziets Thanks for answering our questions. As someone who has never heard of you, and is only vaguely familiar with some of the projects you've worked on (NVWN 2 MotB which has a fairly good reputation, and TToN which has a poor one), can you explain your general approach and idea when it comes to CRPGs? To focus the question in a little bit, what would you consider to be the most important aspects regarding CRPGs? Also, if we could get your opinion regarding these fairly vague but important questions, that'd be nice.

Opinion on RTwP versus TB?

Opinion on 2D vs 3D?

Isometric or bust?

Philosophy on game difficulty?

Target audience?

And finally, you answered Fluent's question regarding what kind of RPG you're trying to make with this post,
I’ve currently got a document full of RPG and RPG-hybrid pitches. We’ve started prototyping one of them – I can’t say much about it yet, except that it’s an original setting with a vibe you’d expect from us. Down the road, we’re planning to develop some concept art pieces and setting info that we can share.
but is there really nothing more you can tell us? Can we get some comparisons with other games, or perhaps some games you'd cite as inspiration?

Thanks.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,155
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
G Ziets Are you considering an OGL ruleset for your game? Could make it easier to pitch something to WotC later. :M
It's an interesting idea - depends upon the direction we go with the current game. If we end up leaning more traditional RPG, it’s possible. I don’t know a lot about how OGL works, so I’d need to look into it more.

Ask JarlFrank or Solasta guys for that. They have some experience with OGL.

OGL is pretty easy - you can use any rules within the OGL as you see fit, you may even edit them however you want (house rules etc), but you have to credit the OGL ruleset and include it in its entirety in your game. So a full-fledged in-game wiki of the rules would be mandatory.
 

biggestboss

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 16, 2017
Messages
528
OGL is pretty easy - you can use any rules within the OGL as you see fit, you may even edit them however you want (house rules etc), but you have to credit the OGL ruleset and include it in its entirety in your game. So a full-fledged in-game wiki of the rules would be mandatory.
I have a question about this: Let's say I want to put something like 5-foot step into a game I'm developing. I don't actually know if 5-foot step is a part of OGL but for the sake of example I'm assuming it is. Would I have to make a full in-game wiki for OGL if I use 5-foot step as a mechanic?
 

The Red Knight

Erudite
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
485
Starting at 9:20 he said:
So Disco Elysium... everything that I've read and seen about it, it feels very much like... it's got that Planescape: Torment vibe, right? Like, Avellone was trying to do something more than just entertain people on Planescape: Torment, like, he was doing something that I think it was artistic, right? He was doing... he wasn't just like "I am going to make a fun, slasher, shoot'em'up game just, yeah, as an entertainment, just kind of a side thing you can just play and put down", like it was not what he was doing. He was doing something deeper than that. And most games are very much: fun entertainment; and that's all they set out to be. Disco Elysium seem like it was trying out to be something more than that, and from what I can see, they seem to have succeeded, like I absolutely love the writing that I've seen, I think one of the first things I've seen in a long time that approaches that Planescape: Torment level... it's very rare to see that. I love what they're doing with, like, the... they're different parts of your mind are talking to you as you're running around and... I can't wait to play it, but I have, yeah...
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,155
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
OGL is pretty easy - you can use any rules within the OGL as you see fit, you may even edit them however you want (house rules etc), but you have to credit the OGL ruleset and include it in its entirety in your game. So a full-fledged in-game wiki of the rules would be mandatory.
I have a question about this: Let's say I want to put something like 5-foot step into a game I'm developing. I don't actually know if 5-foot step is a part of OGL but for the sake of example I'm assuming it is. Would I have to make a full in-game wiki for OGL if I use 5-foot step as a mechanic?

No, 5 foot step is just a single game mechanic. But if you copy the entire D20 system but add some of your own rule changes, you're using the OGL. If you use, say, a Fallout style SPECIAL system but add in 5 foot step as a mechanic, you're not using the D&D OGL.

include it in its entirety in your game
What do you mean by that? The original ruleset has to be included in the game in some way or another(an in-game wiki, as you said) even if I edited something?

Everything that is taken from the OGL has to be fully documented in your game. Let's say you make a combat focused game with D&D 3.5 OGL, but you don't put in skills since skills are mostly non-combat. You don't have to put in the OGL rules about skills since your game doesn't use them.

You MUST, however, fully document every rule that's actually implemented, and clearly mention that those rules are taken from the OGL.

To quote from the official WotC FAQ:

It means that the publisher has a burden to use some system to identify Open Game Content to any recipient of that content. Systems which have been used by some publishers include placing Open Game Content in shaded boxes, using a different font, italicizing or bolding the Open Game Content, and segregating all the Open Game Content into specifically designated chapters or appendixes. Some publishers have released documents that are identified as being comprised completely of Open Game Content.

"Clearly identified" means that the system should pass the "reasonable person" test; meaning that a reasonable person should be able to determine what portions of a given work are Open Game Content, and which portions are not. If you can't figure out what parts of a given work are Open Game Content, provided you exert a reasonable effort to read and apply the instructions for identification provided by the publisher, then the material isn't Clearly Identified.

This also applies to software. A reasonable person should be able to look at a piece of software and find and understand the Open Content. WeÍll make a slight allowance that they may have to take a little more time to understand some things, but they should be able to see and understand all Open Content.

You could, theoretically, take the combat rules of OGL D&D, but come up with your own rules for persuasion and other social skills, not using the OGL rules for this part of the game at all.

If those additional rules you add are not OGL (as in, you don't give out a free license for everyone to copy those rules verbatim) you have to clearly state that those rules are not part of the OGL.

Every rule you take from the D&D OGL must be documented in some way, so the users can read up on it and - if they feel like it - use the rules for their own game.
If you use the OGL in your game, you must document the rules in such a way that someone who wants to use these rules for his own game can use your game as the only reference to those rules.
So saying "Our ruleset is based on the 3.5 OGL by Wizards of the Coast" and putting a link to the official WotC website in your game isn't enough. You must include a complete system reference document (complete as pertaining to your game - if you only use half of the rules of the OGL, you only have to put the half you use into your reference doc).

Oh, and you're also not allowed to use anything that isn't part of the OGL, which includes brand names and copyrighted monsters. No beholders, no mind flayers. When I worked on Realms Beyond, we were even careful not to use "Dungeons and Dragons" in any of our official statements. We always referred to it as "The 3.5 OGL by Wizards of the Coast". They don't really like people using the D&D brand without being officially licensed.
 

Viata

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
9,886
Location
Water Play Catarinense
So saying "Our ruleset is based on the 3.5 OGL by Wizards of the Coast" and putting a link to the official WotC website in your game isn't enough. You must include a complete system reference document (complete as pertaining to your game - if you only use half of the rules of the OGL, you only have to put the half you use into your reference doc).
So that is why Knights of the Chalice has an in-game wiki of the ruleset in it?
 

Ramnozack

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Messages
876
G Ziets make sure to put pretty elves in your games!!!

Crahliu.png

And then allow us to kill and burn them.
Would you consider enslavement a viable alternative to execution when it comes to the elf? Or is it simply best to be rid of the elf as soon as possible?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Game rules aren’t copyrightable. Only the way they’re expressed, e.g. rulebooks.
Indeed. As a notable RPG example, EA patented the Mass Effect dialogue wheel.

UI elements aren’t copyrightable but they may be patentable. IBM has a patent for the progress bar. Not enforced though so probably considered lapsed.

But it would be 100% legal to make a 1:1 AD&D ruleset clone as long as you rewrote the descriptions of everything and didn’t use any trademarked or copyrighted stuff from the setting. You’d probably have to rename Bigby’s Grasping Hand to Bob’s Handgrasp or something but there you are.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
UI elements aren’t copyrightable but they may be patentable. IBM has a patent for the progress bar. Not enforced though so probably considered lapsed.
I know, I was agreeing. The dialogue wheel's presentation is protected, while its concept obviously isn't. I assumed you were using copyright as a general term for IP, since patents would cover these things. Copyright covers the lore and names for all that D&D stuff, and they're part of 'Product Identity' in the OGL.

But it would be 100% legal to make a 1:1 AD&D ruleset clone as long as you rewrote the descriptions of everything and didn’t use any trademarked or copyrighted stuff from the setting.
Most retroclones do just that. Their designers use the OGL to copy the descriptions of basic mechanics and concepts, and copy everything else they want without stealing the descriptions and/or names.

You’d probably have to rename Bigby’s Grasping Hand to Bob’s Handgrasp or something but there you are.
Or if you're feeling as shameless as Sawyer, lift Tenser's Transformation as "Citzal's Martial Power". But a lot of these are in the 3E SRDs without the names anyway.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,155
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So saying "Our ruleset is based on the 3.5 OGL by Wizards of the Coast" and putting a link to the official WotC website in your game isn't enough. You must include a complete system reference document (complete as pertaining to your game - if you only use half of the rules of the OGL, you only have to put the half you use into your reference doc).
So that is why Knights of the Chalice has an in-game wiki of the ruleset in it?

Yes. It has to have that in-game wiki if it uses OGL rules.

Game rules aren’t copyrightable. Only the way they’re expressed, e.g. rulebooks.
Indeed. As a notable RPG example, EA patented the Mass Effect dialogue wheel.

UI elements aren’t copyrightable but they may be patentable. IBM has a patent for the progress bar. Not enforced though so probably considered lapsed.

But it would be 100% legal to make a 1:1 AD&D ruleset clone as long as you rewrote the descriptions of everything and didn’t use any trademarked or copyrighted stuff from the setting. You’d probably have to rename Bigby’s Grasping Hand to Bob’s Handgrasp or something but there you are.

The OGL already renames those spells to remove all the branding from them. An OGL game isn't allowed to call a spell Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or whatever other D&D spells there are named after the wizard who invented them. You have to call them something generic like "Terrible Laughter" or come up with your own name based on your own world's lore, like "Bob's Bad Pun".
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
So saying "Our ruleset is based on the 3.5 OGL by Wizards of the Coast" and putting a link to the official WotC website in your game isn't enough. You must include a complete system reference document (complete as pertaining to your game - if you only use half of the rules of the OGL, you only have to put the half you use into your reference doc).
So that is why Knights of the Chalice has an in-game wiki of the ruleset in it?

Yes. It has to have that in-game wiki if it uses OGL rules.
Does the develoepr have to implement this wiki ingame, or can he just add a pdf in the game folder with all the rules?
 

Egosphere

Arcane
Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Messages
1,909
Location
Hibernia
So saying "Our ruleset is based on the 3.5 OGL by Wizards of the Coast" and putting a link to the official WotC website in your game isn't enough. You must include a complete system reference document (complete as pertaining to your game - if you only use half of the rules of the OGL, you only have to put the half you use into your reference doc).
So that is why Knights of the Chalice has an in-game wiki of the ruleset in it?

Yes. It has to have that in-game wiki if it uses OGL rules.
Does the develoepr have to implement this wiki ingame, or can he just add a pdf in the game folder with all the rules?
just have a 'wiki' button that closes the game and opens the pdf :smug:
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
I don’t think GDEX posts the presentations... I could be wrong. My slides tend to be mostly pictures and thus useless without my narration, but one of these days I really should upload a modified version to Tumblr.

What sort of RPG would you like to make? I know you can't talk about specifics but a general idea would be welcomed. We're all super interested in your potential projects. :)
I’ve currently got a document full of RPG and RPG-hybrid pitches. We’ve started prototyping one of them – I can’t say much about it yet, except that it’s an original setting with a vibe you’d expect from us. Down the road, we’re planning to develop some concept art pieces and setting info that we can share.

Of course, there are also some existing IPs that I’d love to work in. For example, I’d happily drop everything for a Ravenloft RPG. In fact, a number of the WotC IPs would be fantastic, like Dark Sun and Planescape. In the Matt Chat interview, we talked about some other possibilities too - spiritual successors and novels that would lend themselves to great RPGs. (I think he’ll be posting those segments soon.)
:shredder::shredder::shredder:
Don't play with my heart man. Avellone broke my heart by not commiting into a long term relationship and becoming the kickstarter stretchgoal man, don't say those words then leave, my poor heart wouldn't take it. If you manage to make a Ravenloft RPG, I will pay the mortgage of your house. Well... technically...mortgage of your house... in dollars... maybe that is a bit too much as I'm a third worlder and my monopoly money isn't worth shit but if you do a kickstarter, I will support no doubt.
 

G Ziets

Digimancy Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
66
Location
Columbus, OH
G Ziets Thanks for answering our questions. As someone who has never heard of you, and is only vaguely familiar with some of the projects you've worked on (NVWN 2 MotB which has a fairly good reputation, and TToN which has a poor one), can you explain your general approach and idea when it comes to CRPGs? To focus the question in a little bit, what would you consider to be the most important aspects regarding CRPGs? Also, if we could get your opinion regarding these fairly vague but important questions, that'd be nice.

Opinion on RTwP versus TB?

Opinion on 2D vs 3D?

Isometric or bust?

Philosophy on game difficulty?

Target audience?

And finally, you answered Fluent's question regarding what kind of RPG you're trying to make with this post,
I’ve currently got a document full of RPG and RPG-hybrid pitches. We’ve started prototyping one of them – I can’t say much about it yet, except that it’s an original setting with a vibe you’d expect from us. Down the road, we’re planning to develop some concept art pieces and setting info that we can share.
but is there really nothing more you can tell us? Can we get some comparisons with other games, or perhaps some games you'd cite as inspiration?

Thanks.
In no particular order, here are some of my high-level preferences on RPGs:

Strong, branching narrative is critical for me. Preferably a narrative that focuses on the player. It’s very difficult to make players genuinely care about “save the world” plots, and I think they usually fall flat. As in real life, players can typically be relied upon to care about themselves (the player-character) and people they get to know over the course of the game (companions certainly, but sometimes also multi-dimensional, sympathetic NPCs, allies, or even villains).

Choices – especially the important ones - should have multiple consequences across multiple dimensions of the game. E.g., they should affect how NPCs react to me, what quests I receive and how they play out, what companions I unlock, the appearance of my character and/or other elements in the world, and systemic effects like traits and special abilities.

All aspects of a game (art, narrative, gameplay, sound, etc.) should reinforce one another and come together to create a unified experience. I’m not a fan of rulesets that are completely unrelated to the setting / story and make no effort to adapt themselves to the game as a whole. (A good example of gameplay and story playing well together are the tattoos as armor in Planescape Torment – they serve a systemic purpose while also reinforcing your character’s identity AND reflecting your accomplishments and choices.)

I like to take players to a setting they’ve never seen before and explore it alongside them. Ideally, I try to make the player a stranger in a strange land to set up as much mystery and unanswered questions as I can, and then gradually breadcrumb the answers over the course of the game (always dropping new questions as the initial ones are answered). This is why I set Mask of the Betrayer in Rashemen and Thay, for example, instead of the overused Sword Coast.

All characters – including villains – should have believable motivations for what they do. In real life, almost nobody thinks they’re evil - usually they’re trying to do what they think is right (even if their perceptions are warped), or at least they're able to justify their actions to themselves. “Evil” isn’t just brute psychopathy – it’s subtle and multidimensional and should be portrayed as such.

In response to your specific questions, again based on what I prefer as a player:

Opinion on RTwP versus TB?
Turn-based. I can play and enjoy RTwP games (e.g., Infinity Engine, Pathfinder), often by setting them up to pause on all the optional events, but I still enjoy turn-based systems better.

Opinion on 2D vs 3D?
Isometric or 2D. Mainly this is because 3D games lend themselves more to action combat systems IMO, while isometric or 2D encourage a more tactical, strategic perspective, which is what I prefer. (I know that’s not always the case, but I still prefer the overhead view.)

Philosophy on game difficulty?
I enjoy challenge in turn-based and strategic systems, but I’m terrible at twitchy combat (e.g., Souls games), so I don’t enjoy high-difficulty action games. That said, I’m in favor of including difficulty settings in RPGs so people can play as they like. “Story-mode” for people who just want the narrative and C&C / don’t want to deal with challenging combat doesn’t bother me, as long as it’s not forced on me.

Target audience?
Depends on the game, but I am a PC gamer first, with a preference for strategic (non-twitchy) combat and strong narrative, so making games for people with similar tastes is where my heart lies.

Is there really nothing more you can tell us? Can we get some comparisons with other games, or perhaps some games you'd cite as inspiration?
Not yet. We’re still in the prototyping phase, and we probably will be for a while.
 

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,650
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Turn-based. I can play and enjoy RTwP games (e.g., Infinity Engine, Pathfinder), often by setting them up to pause on all the optional events, but I still enjoy turn-based systems better.
There's a great mod that makes Pathfinder's combat turn-based if you want to look into it. It made the combat a lot more bearable for me.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom