Interview Gothic 3 interview at TVG

[Vault Dweller]

I prefer non-linearity, isometric view, and TB combat, but that doesn't mean that a linear FP real-time game is bad. Wouldn't have liked DF so much otherwise.

Aren't you always going on about how non-linear Daggerfall was and how Morrowind is way more linear?

Wouldn't call that "always going on", but yes, I did mention it a few times. I meant real time and isometric in case of DF.

Making Gothic turn-based would seem like a pretty drastic change. I think it would be welcomed about as warmly by their fans as a real-time Fallout would be to Fallout fans.

Did I suggest that?

Do you know UFO: Enemy Unknow?. I really liked that game. It is turn based. Now, we have another game, UFO Aftershock, from another company. But it is turn based again. My point? i don't like drastic changes in the gameplay of my favourites games. If they make it action oriented, like a shooter.. tch tch... not for me, thanks.

Aftershock is turn-based? Whatcha talking about?

 

[Anoik]

Do you know UFO: Enemy Unknow?. I really liked that game. It is turn based. Now, we have another game, UFO Aftershock, from another company. But it is turn based again. My point? i don't like drastic changes in the gameplay of my favourites games. If they make it action oriented, like a shooter.. tch tch... not for me, thanks.

Aftershock is turn-based? Whatcha talking about?

Not a really turn-based game, it is like the original game. This is from the FAQ of the game...

4.2 What will the gameplay be like in tactical missions in UFO: Aftershock ?
UFO: Aftershock will be a top down isometric 3D game, with flexible controls for zooming and rotating the view. The game will be a form of combination of turn based and real time, where you issue orders to your soldiers in a pause mode, then see the implementation of these orders in real time. When something unexpected occurs, the game will pause, allowing you to revise your orders and react to the new situation. This pause setting will be configurable, as to leave the game as fluid as the player wants it. The player can pause the game any time he wishes to change or review orders, however the implementation of those orders will only occur once the game is unpaused, where everyone, both soldiers and enemies will move simultaneously. This system is called SAS, short for Simultaneous Action System.

 

[Micmu]

It's REAL TIME with pause. It's WAY different than UFO's fully turn-based combat. Did you actually play it? It's NOTHING like in the original game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anoik, my gullible friend, it's nothing like the original game. This horseshit is called real time with pause where the pause pretends to be a turn-based element.

Here is an old, yet funny interview with the Lead Moron of UFO:Aftermath:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2923

We wanted to take the gameplay elements of those games we liked (XCom and JA) and drop those we now find too cumbersome or too difficult to understand.

Other thing we decided to break away from was traditional turn-based combat. While this is almost a synonym for "tactical" (as apposed to "real-time clickfest"), in fact, it is very unrealistic. It is a throwback to old war games that obviously had to be played in turns

In UFO: Aftermath, we introduced our Simultaneous Action System (SAS) in which you plan out orders for your men (where to go, what to equip, whom to attack) while the game is paused. Then, you run the game, your men go carry out your orders and the game pauses when either one of them completes his plan or when something unforeseen happens like a new enemy is spotted, or a soldier comes under fire.

 

[Anoik]

It's REAL TIME with pause. It's WAY different than UFO's fully turn-based combat. Did you actually play it? It's NOTHING like in the original game.

I know, i have played the demo. But the original game wasn't fully turn-based. For example. If you give an order to your squad, to go to some point, they will go there using his turn, but aliens will not wait for his turn to move. Some times they can move and shoot your squad.

But my point was that i don't like drastic changes, like make a UFO game like a shooter. Both, Enemy Unknow and Aftershock are very similar. Only some minor changes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Uh, no, they aren't. The original game was fully, completely, and utterly turn-based. What you are talking about is Interrupt, an option to attack during enemy's turn.

 

[bryce777]

Uh, no, they aren't. The original game was fully, completely, and utterly turn-based. What you are talking about is Interrupt, an option to attack during enemy's turn.

You are thinking of UFO: enemy unknown.

This is the wacky czech republic made one that I couldn't bring myself to play once I read the manual....

 

[Anoik]

Maybe i am getting old... shit

I was talking about this...

When all your troopers have used their TUs (or you are happy with their positions) your turn ends and the aliens move/shoot (with hidden movement). Firing can also occur on a sort of "opportunity" basis; aliens shoot at you if they see you moving in the open, and if your trooper's reactions are good enough he can shoot at an alien during its movement phase, but you need to reserve some TU's for this.

 

[Screaming_life]

I mean just look at them :D

Game Design and the boss
http://www.piranha-bytes.com/gothic2/files/media/team/teampage_mike.jpg

:shock: he is the nameless hero!

Game Design
http://www.piranha-bytes.com/gothic2/files/media/team/teampage_bjoern.jpg

And this must be who they based the pirate model on! :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

Uh, no, they aren't. The original game was fully, completely, and utterly turn-based. What you are talking about is Interrupt, an option to attack during enemy's turn.

You are thinking of UFO: enemy unknown.

This is the wacky czech republic made one that I couldn't bring myself to play once I read the manual....

I know. Anoik said that both UFO: Enemy Unknow and UFO: Aftermath/shock are basically the same. I replied to that.

 

[Claw]

Also the mini-talent thing. I didn't think there was anything broken with the way stats worked in G1 or G2, but if it ends up like the perk thing in Silent Storm that would be bad.

That doesn't even make sense, since both games had very different systems in parts.
besides, the new system isn't entirely new. Basically, non-combat skills like Acrobatics, Lockpicking, Sneaking were always mini-talents. Alchemy and magic were almost skill-trees. Firs. :wink:

I only hope they don't blow it. Previews keep citing "double damage to Orcs" as talent/perk, which sounds lame. I guess the problem is that the skill system wasn't much more than an idea at the time of that statement, which wasn't too long ago. They are a far cry from finishing the game.
What does sound good is that "professions" have an experience-like value which will be relevant for learning specific skills.

Gothic was classbased to the max. You chose a class later and gained abilities depending on that specific class, with a small bunch left outside for everyone to learn.

I don't really agree. There are sort of classes, and the access to trainers and equipment does promote a certain playing style, but any character can learn any skill eventually, and the unrestrcited raising of attributes was a very relevant part of the character development.

Well, they can hardly have any less than they did. The mini-talents sound much like Oblivions skill perks to me.

Haha, you are funny. No, I'll tell you what Oblivion's skill perks sound like: The melee combat skills in Gothic 2, which do two things for the character: Add extra attacks to the combo, and increase the chance for extra damage.
So basically, higher melee combat skill means more damage and "special" attacks.

But once made they are probably just two different linear questlines.

Since you supposedly only "really" decide which side you support later in the game, I'd hope the larger part of the game plays like the non-linear "prelude" prior to joining a faction in previous Gothics.

- A fully developed stealth system - OB wins - I kinda liked Gothic's system.
- Swimming - OB wins - how so?
- Acrobatics - OB wins - hardly
- Evil guilds - OB likely wins - Slave Hunters
- Magic: Advantage Oblivion - way more detailed system. - I guess.. but I liked Gothic's "rune creation" and fire magic more.

PS:
a) Only one branch of magic (fire, I guess) will be missing at the beginning of Gothic 3
b) Great. I forgot the actual reason I added a PS in the first place.

PPS:
Oh, and my main concern is combat. They both want to add simple "one click" and keep the old combat, but that isn't really possible, since the important aspect of Gothic's combat was the ability to choose different attacks. I guess they can do it like in Gothic 2 where the alternative controls used forward attack as standard, and you had to bind extra keys to the side swings. Of course, that'd probably cause more complaints because using only the forward attack is something I'd never consider in Gothic. I am happy they remove the timing for the combo though.

 

[Jinxed]

Maybe i am getting old... shit

I was talking about this...

When all your troopers have used their TUs (or you are happy with their positions) your turn ends and the aliens move/shoot (with hidden movement). Firing can also occur on a sort of "opportunity" basis; aliens shoot at you if they see you moving in the open, and if your trooper's reactions are good enough he can shoot at an alien during its movement phase, but you need to reserve some TU's for this.

That's going long way from turnbased to real time. You must be really clueless to point that out as something that makes a game real time.

I don't really agree. There are sort of classes, and the access to trainers and equipment does promote a certain playing style, but any character can learn any skill eventually, and the unrestrcited raising of attributes was a very relevant part of the character development.

IIRC, there were 3 classes in G2, Mercenary, Mage and Paladin. Thief wasn't really a class...

Mercenery didn't really keep any exclusives skills so I can agree, except being able to learn an exclusive Forge level. Mage and Paladin on the other hand, had completely exclusive skills, namely spells.
Once you chose a class, there was no going back either.

 

[Anoik]

Maybe i am getting old... shit

I was talking about this...

When all your troopers have used their TUs (or you are happy with their positions) your turn ends and the aliens move/shoot (with hidden movement). Firing can also occur on a sort of "opportunity" basis; aliens shoot at you if they see you moving in the open, and if your trooper's reactions are good enough he can shoot at an alien during its movement phase, but you need to reserve some TU's for this.

That's going long way from turnbased to real time. You must be really clueless to point that out as something that makes a game real time.

Sorry, maybe my english is very bad (it is crapy, hehe), but i have never said that the game was real time. I have said that the old games wasn't fully turn based. I was wrong, it was really turn based. Was that litle info you can read in that quote the problem in my memory.

VD have taked me out of my error some posts ago. But, again, i have never point that as something that makes a game real time. :wink:

 

[Sol Invictus]

VD likes ignoring the fact that everyone here bashed Oblivion for Patrick Stewart, Soil Erosion and Speedtree. Hey, if Gothic 3 uses it it's a feature. if Oblivion uses it, it's nothing more than hype by "Pete 'Full of Shit' Hines". That's rich.

Gothic 2 had 3 guilds. Apparently that's a feature, too.

 

[Claw]

IIRC, there were 3 classes in G2, Mercenary, Mage and Paladin. Thief wasn't really a class...

Once you chose a class, there was no going back either.

Well, that is what you get when you try talking about two very different games at once, since Gothic isn't Gothic 2. One reason many fans prefer Gothic over the sequel is the less rigid class/guild structure. Besides, I do approve of the inworld background for the classes. You aren't just a paladin because you sleected it on character creation, you actually joined the holy order! That is cool in my book.
It is true that there are restrictions, and actually I liked them. The mages won't train you in magic if you don't join their order, which makes sense to me. It'd be like the Mages Guild in Morrowind refusing training to non-members.
I See where you are coming from, but I honestly find it hard to think of it as a flaw, except that the gameworld lacked alternative ways of training.

And as you said, there was no real thief class, but you could could still create a thief-like character. You could also choose to make a more melee-centered character or focus on ranged combat, which was completely idependent from your class. Even playing as Mage, I could have trained dexterity instead of mana and learned ranged combat rather than the circles of magic. How can you call that "classbased to the max"?

 

[Kraszu]

VD likes ignoring the fact that everyone here bashed Oblivion for Patrick Stewart, Soil Erosion and Speedtree

No, it is bashed becose that is whot they are focus on, G3 develoports like to talk about gameplay, Oblivion dev likes to talk about soil erosin.

Gothic 2 had 3 guilds. Apparently that's a feature, too.

?? So there will be more guilds in G3 then in G2 insted of less in Oblivion then in Morrowind your point?

btw. There was thief guild but not so big.

 

[Twinfalls]

As usual, Kraszu is spot on (exactly right).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oblivion devs talk about gameplay a lot more than they talk about soil erosion but it isn't as if VD offers them equal coverage. In each interview, there's always a mention of gameplay, gameplay, gameplay, soil erosion, and Patrick Stewart.

It isn't the fault of the developers that the magazines keep asking about the latter two features but VD and everyone else here who undoubtedly fail to read the interviews and choose instead to read whatever little out of context snippets VD picked out of the interview seem entirely focused on the fluff and not on the gameplay.

According to VD, the details they mention about the dialogue, the 'emotion' system embedded in the NPC dialogue, the gameplay, the traps and everything else is 'unimportant' for whatever vague reason (e.g. "it doesn't impress me so I don't talk about it) and therefore secondary to the Codex's uneven coverage of soil erosion and Patrick Stewart comments. You people just eat it up.

So there will be more guilds in G3 then in G2 insted of less in Oblivion then in Morrowind your point?

More is more. G3 has less guilds and choices in it than Oblivion, but it's apparently a better game because it's superior to G2 while Oblivion shaves off the quantity of guilds that it had in Morrowind?

 

[Shagnak]

We're damn lucky we get the likes of MSFD feeding us scraps.

I hang on his every (non-Beth-approved) word...


YOU HEAR!!?? GIVE US SOME MORE DAMMIT!

:D

 

[Twinfalls]

Uh, Sol - G3 will have a lot more guilds than Oblivion. And a lot more choices. Choices that actually mean something, as they will have consequences.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah so do I. It interests me to read about all the little details that goes into Oblivion's gameplay, like the physics based traps for example. But that's a pale shadow compared to the utter importance of Patrick Stewart in the Codex's coverage of the game. If I go to the future and come back in time with a review of Oblivion by Vault Dweller, it would probably be summed up in four short words:

Soil Erosion, Patrick Stewart

Subtext: The Definitive Codex review of Oblivion, because we're meant to be taken seriously by the game industry.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Uh, Sol - G3 will have a lot more guilds than Oblivion. And a lot more choices. Choices that actually mean something, as they will have consequences.

Oh really, so you've played both G3 and Oblivion, then?

Or more likely you're taking the word of G3's developers. When Oblivion's developers mention that the player will have real choices to make and so on and so forth, people call them liars and hype makers. When G3's developers say the same thing, we're supposed to take them at their word.

Such double standards.

 

[Twinfalls]

You don't actually read threads through, do you? Read this one. You'll note VD has already explained why Piranha Bytes' promises are taken seriously.

 

[Anoik]

Yes, to some extend, people here tend to focus in the same thing every time. You read an interview and you all say "soil erosion", "Patrick Steward". It's funny, i know, but the game have gameplay too. And you know, it's marketing. They have to sell the game. But they talk about more things in the interviews.

Will their game be perfect?. No, no, and three times no.

 

[Shagnak]

Yeah so do I. It interests me to read about all the little details that goes into Oblivion's gameplay, like the physics based traps for example.

Yeah. I'm one of the ones that is definitely going to buy the game. I want to hear about the "good bits".

But that's a pale shadow compared to the utter importance of Patrick Stewart in the Codex's coverage of the game. If I go to the future ...

I know , I know.
I try to pick the good bits away from the hype (and subsequent derision).
There are a heap of things that sound great. But there are quite a few things that don't.
I'm definitely way down in the middle somewhere - like you I think the game is going to be good regardless; but like a lot of others think, I think that there are definitely some things that are BAD design decisions.

I'm currently on the "positive" side of ambivalence. But I still reserve the right to whinge and whine on certain specific points that rile me. :D