Gothic Gothic remake from THQ Nordic

[cloudropis]

Worst idea? No, it makes perfectly sense. I can't deal any damage in a fire magician with a fire bolt, but can with a storm of fire, because the fire robe absorbs in flat amount.

Armor absorbing in percentage is awful. Makes a sword and a warhammer wielded by a 2.5m tall orc equally effective vs a heavy plate armor. On FNV, a SMG outDPS a rifle with AP rounds vs unarmored targets but is useless vs heavily armored enemies and i love it. Percentage reduction homogenizes armor, progression, spells and weaponry.

That's all good for a turn based game, but in an action game, theoretically built around player skill rather than character skill, flat damage reduction sucks. Just look at Dragon's Dogma, or BotW, you are either so underequipped that mastery of the game's systems is irrilevant as you'll be stuck doing chip damage, or so overpowered that you are free to detach yourself completely from the combat as you'll melt anything anyway.
I don't want another Gothic 1/2 where your defensive options suck, enemies don't telegraph for shit, you can't reliably deal nor avoid damage and with random spurs of completely unneeded RNG. If you want to make an action RPG use the template of the actually good ones, that managed to make good player skill systems while also throwing a bone to the RPG players who want to see numbers go up and improve passively (because not every % reduction game is fucked up like Skyrim is), that released in the last 20 years like the Souls games or Nioh.

Idk why the ratings, but i completely agree with you. Having a subtraction system defenses absolutely ruin the immersion.
I smack this high level goblin head with my mace: 0 damage because my attack is lower than his defenses. That is absolutely right, right?
Or i have this op weapon and can 1shot low level dragons.
The combat like this feels just a calculator is playing for you.
The worst moments for me in Dragons dogma ( wich is one of my favorite modern action rpg btw) is when i was doing 0 damage to enemies because defense threeshold, and after getting op weapons destroying them.
Idk the damage formula of games like DS, but that's the way to go. You can kill all enemies at lv 1 with unupgraded weapon, provided you are good enough and know the game.

I don't give a fuck about the immersion, it's bad because if everything is decided by numbers I might as well play a turn based game.

 

[Murk]

I just hope they drop the current dialogue system. Anyone that came up with the idea of dialogu wheel should be burned.

I agree with Dexter that this isn't as big of an issue as the other things. It's annoying and obviously designed to cater to consoles, and it should switch to the classic list when you have controls set to KB+ M (or just always, since pressing down on a list with a gamepad has been around for decades).

It's the company emulating the look of something without realizing why, which shows their amateurishness (like the typos int he foreword when you start the demo).

At the least when you hover over the "choice" it shows the actual dialog you will speak below it. Better than what happened in Witcher 2 when the option was a mild response only for Geralt to scream "Fuck You!" immediately upon selecting it.

I still think it should be scrapped since it serves no purpose and forces you to go into submenus (and to use yet other buttons to go back, like Q for some bizarre reason), but it is a lesser sin that falls more in QoL than in "outright broken mechanics".

 

[Dishonoredbr]

I agree with Dexter that this isn't as big of an issue as the other things. It's annoying and obviously designed to cater to consoles, and it should switch to the classic list when you have controls set to KB+ M (or just always, since pressing down on a list with a gamepad has been around for decades).

I really fail to understand what's so wrong with a list.. Is really that bad for console only play to actually take more than 2 seconds to READ something? Even then pull a Deus Ex HR and put the what you gonna say somewhere. Anyway.

>I agree with Dexter that this isn't as big of an issue as the other things

I mean i didn't wanted to mentioned the other things because otherwise i would be writting a book of what's so wrong with this Gothic mod for Skyrim.. I not too big on Gothic, but you only need to two eyes to understand why this remake looks like a cash grab. Mean no offence for guys/gals working in this but this is shit screams ''I want to get those TW3 and Skyrim fans money EZ.''

 

[Morkar Left]

PB is owned by THQ and THQ are the ones who decided to remake Gothic without PB's input I think.

I'm pretty sure PB has no interest whatsoever to make a new Gothic game even less when it comes to a remake. I have the impression they are pretty much done with the franchise. Not sure there is even another guy left besides Björn Pankratz who made some of the Gothic titles.
I guess if they wanted to do another Gothic title THQ would have let them made it. Why would they be against it? Especially when giving it instead to a new no name studio?

 

[Harthwain]

I really fail to understand what's so wrong with a list.. Is really that bad for console only play to actually take more than 2 seconds to READ something? Even then pull a Deus Ex HR and put the what you gonna say somewhere. Anyway.

It's mostly about the presentation.

1) In a list you have to go the whole way up or down to select an option, while using a wheel the options are spread around it, making it feel smoother to navigate to them.
2) In a list the dialogue options feel crammed in designated space at the bottom of the interface, while in a wheel you have more freedom to make text bigger without fear of going "out of bounds".

One advantage of a list over a wheel is that with a list you can put way more text as you can scroll down through the dialogue options (with the wheel you're more limited and usually have to cut down the text).

Other than that both a list and a wheel are just a different way of showing up the same dialogue and it's down to personal preference.

 

[Citizen]

Er... no, it didn't. Even if it had though, that's not even a similar situation. They're not going to remove Gothic because another developer does a reimagining.

Even if it gets beamdoge treatment, and they remove it from all digital stores, making the original lost to future generations?

 

[Farewell young Prince into the night]

This remake teaser made me reinstall Gothic 1 to get the taste of shit outta my mouth.

 

[Cryomancer]

Even if it gets beamdoge treatment, and they remove it from all digital stores, making the original lost to future generations?

If you can choose between Gothic 1 and G1 remake, anyone would choose this remake?

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Even if it gets beamdoge treatment, and they remove it from all digital stores, making the original lost to future generations?

If you can choose between Gothic 1 and G1 remake, anyone would choose this remake?

Yes, those who haven't played the original and their butt buddies who quit the game 5 minutes in because 'the combat is terrible I can deal any damage to enemies outdated shit 1/10'.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yes, those who haven't played the original and their butt buddies who quit the game 5 minutes in because 'the combat is terrible I can deal any damage to enemies outdated shit 1/10'.

IMO they should do the REMAKE for consoles and a remaster without any unoptional change to PC. Eg - the option to become a Guru on swamp camp will only affect those who wanna become one. A OPTIONAL armor absorbing by percentage and making you able to kill corristo and orcs with circle 1 fire bolt and having only minimal homogenized bonus when you get a better armor.

I wanna upgrading for fire mages robes to high fire mage robes to be a significant improvement vs certain enemies and useless vs another. Same with +10 STR.

I don't give a fuck about the immersion, it's bad because if everything is decided by numbers I might as well play a turn based game.

Immersion is the selling point of Gothic.

 

[Murk]

It's worth noting that people have wildly different definitions of what immersion means; ranging from LARPing to things like "there are detailed NPC schedules which have a meaningful impact on gameplay and can alter how quests can be done."

 

[cloudropis]

I don't give a fuck about the immersion, it's bad because if everything is decided by numbers I might as well play a turn based game.

Immersion is the selling point of Gothic.

Cool, make it immersive without fucking up the actual tangible qualities of the game for no reason.
It's not like people will make up the rules of what constitutes as immersive or not on the spot just to further their argument, as it has always been. See your previous posts from a few days ago and the one I replied to today. One says that % damage reduction breaks immersion because a tall orc will do the same damage to a full plate with a hammer as he will with a sword. The other says that flat damage reduction breaks immersion because you can hit something with a huge piece of metal and do 0 damage. Which one is right, which one is wrong? Both, and neither, because immersion is some abstract bullshit and everyone will claim what they like is the one thing that is totally immersive anyway.

 

[Cryomancer]

ith a huge piece of metal and do 0 damage. Which one is right, which one is wrong? Both, and neither, because immersion is some abstract bullshit and everyone will claim what they like is the one thing that is totally immersive anyway.

Immersion is not subjective. He used a silly example. There are no goblins with amazing armor BUT if you hit a stone golem with a common sword and has common STR, you will deal no damage and it makes sense. Try using a hammer. Anyway, i love the original combat not only because it is more immerse IMO, but also because creates a FAST & BRUTAL gameplay.

See i clearing a entire city in about 5 minutes BUT 2 charged fireballs around 2 minutes was enough to make me in a almost dead state, despite i using a firemage robes and rings/amulets who boosts my resistance.



Keep in mind that on Dark Souls 2 who has flat damage reduction for physical attacks and percentage based for elemental, is possible to reach 85%+ fire resist easily and has a insane advantage VS any pvp pyro.

 

[JDR13]

Er... no, it didn't. Even if it had though, that's not even a similar situation. They're not going to remove Gothic because another developer does a reimagining.

Even if it gets beamdoge treatment, and they remove it from all digital stores, making the original lost to future generations?

Not going to happen. It's a remake not an enhanced edition of the same game.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Immersion is not subjective. He used a silly example. There are no goblins with amazing armor BUT if you hit a stone golem with a common sword and has common STR, you will deal no damage and it makes sense. Try using a hammer. Anyway, i love the original combat not only because it is more immerse IMO, but also because creates a FAST & BRUTAL gameplay.

The truth however is that in G2 you can kill stone golems with swords. They are weak against blunt weapons but not at all immune to bladed ones.
And while I actually like the G1 method, as it makes weapon types more relevant, if I hadn't killed a Golem with a sword yesterday in G2 I wouldn't have known that this is the case.

I have to agree with the others here, immersion is subjective, it depends on personal perception and how much a certain aspect of a game is prioritized by the individual.

 

[Cryomancer]

I have to agree with the others here, immersion is subjective, it depends on personal perception and how much a certain aspect of a game is prioritized by the individual.

If is subjective, anyone believe that Diablo 3 is more immersive than D2? That WoW is more immersive than Ultima Online? That Gothic 4 - ArcaniA is more immersive than G3/2/1???

IS like beauty. There are SOME subjective on it, some personal preference, but a large part of it is objective. Nobody will say that Milagros Schmoll is ugly. She is gorgeous.

 

[Lord of Riva]

I have to agree with the others here, immersion is subjective, it depends on personal perception and how much a certain aspect of a game is prioritized by the individual.

If is subjective, anyone believe that Diablo 3 is more immersive than D2? That WoW is more immersive than Ultima Online? That Gothic 4 - ArcaniA is more immersive than G3/2/1???

IS like beauty. There are SOME subjective on it, some personal preference, but a large part of it is objective. Nobody will say that Milagros Schmoll is ugly. She is gorgeous.

Well i had some lively discussions about the diablos regarding that, I still retain that the first one is the most atmospheric while most would say that the second is way better in every regard. Sadly I have also heard from mostly younger guys that games witch graphics like Diablo 1 and 2 are impossible to immerse yourself in since you "really don't know what you are looking at"

I would also say that I find the much lauded "immersion" of the dark souls series absolutely non-existant but there I am the odd one out. In the end I can not argue your other examples. I never played Ultima Online (and barely any WoW, MMOs suck) but then I do remember some of the people I debating the "story" of this game and how much they like playing RP on their server.

And then Arcania and Gothic 3 are complete shit, so there are way less people who can immerse ín these games. I have a friend with over 1,5k hours in Skyrim though and some peole who swear that Fallout 76 isn't bad because the World is so immersive that Immersion must be at least mostly subjective since I would end up Insane if it wasn't :D

 

[Not.AI]

Immersion must be ... mostly subjective

IS like beauty. There are SOME subjective on it, some personal preference, but a large part of it is objective. Nobody will say that Milagros Schmoll is ugly. She is gorgeous.

I remember that one famous Twilight Zone episode...

Thinking about immersion. Good arguments for it being subjective. Good arguments for it being objective.

What that means is that maybe "immersion" does not exist. Maybe "immersion" is not "one thing". Maybe "immersion" is actually several different things.

Sometimes they are present together in a game. Other times not. A few of them are subjective. Some of them, maybe most of them, are objective...

But the point is they are several different things that all get called the same name. Immersion. Maybe there is no hierarchy among them. Something gets called "immersive" when like five or six out of twenty of these different things, or more, are true of a game to any noticeable degree. Because of the way brains just happen to work.

The point is that it is often different combination of different things, each of which is present to a different degree. Another one of those "things" that has no necessary conditions and has no sufficient conditions, but can still be defined.

Example, ten years ago game worlds has almost no grass. Just a texture. Flat. Nothing. That could fill one of the like five or six slots needed to "feel" immersive. Some games in the past were immersive, but not in the same way. They filled those slots differently. Grass was not possible.

But you can branch cut the definition, pick a particular way of filling those like five or six slots, and then it could seem like "immersion" looks objective. Pick another branch cut, and "immersion" looks subjective. In reality, could be any five or six of like twenty different things, each with the slider. None of these things having anything in common with each other. Maybe immersion is simply like a quest you can solve in many different ways. Some ways involve aspects that are subjective whether they improve immersion or not, but could alternatively be solved by things all of which are objective.

 

[Cryomancer]

And then Arcania and Gothic 3 are complete shit, so there are way less people who can immerse ín these games. I have a friend with over 1,5k hours in Skyrim though and some peole who swear that Fallout 76 isn't bad because the World is so immersive that Immersion must be at least mostly subjective since I would end up Insane if it wasn't :D

Gothic 3 shit???? Gothic 3 is a GOOD game. And most G3 flaws is due JoWood who forced PB to release G3 one year before it was ready. Arcania is shit. Look to gog reviews. Gothic 1/2 has both 4.6/5 user ratting, gothic 3, 4/5 and arcania 2/5. ArcaniA has most modern mmo BS. Char DNA 100% tied to gear, cooldowns on runes that should't even work, bullet sponge enemies, etc.

If PB had time to finish G3, G3 would probably have a similar user ratting than G1/G2. And guess what. G3 is the unique Gothic game who allow me in the first hour to become a water or a dark magician. Gothic 2 is the worst in this aspect. You can only be a fire magician, Xardas who teaches circle 6 on gothic 1? You can't learn anything from him. Can only ask for weapons, the devs assumed that you ended G1 as a warrior. In therms of freedom to do whatever you want and explore the world, G3 is the best

Thinking about immersion. Good arguments for it being subjective. Good arguments for it being objective.

IMO is partially objective and partially subjective. But the overall consensus is that G1/G2/G3 are more immersive than ArcaniA

Why Gothic Is More Believable Than Modern RPGs
source https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/07/gothic-retrospective/

 

[Tito Anic]

When i will become an inquisitor i will burn all Bethestards alive.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Gothic 3 shit???? Gothic 3 is a GOOD game. And most G3 flaws is due JoWood who forced PB to release G3 one year before it was ready. Arcania is shit. Look to gog reviews. Gothic 1/2 has both 4.6/5 user ratting, gothic 3, 4/5 and arcania 2/5. ArcaniA has most modern mmo BS. Char DNA 100% tied to gear, cooldowns on runes that should't even work, bullet sponge enemies, etc.

If PB had time to finish G3, G3 would probably have a similar user ratting than G1/G2. And guess what. G3 is the unique Gothic game who allow me in the first hour to become a water or a dark magician. Gothic 2 is the worst in this aspect. You can only be a fire magician, Xardas who teaches circle 6 on gothic 1? You can't learn anything from him. Can only ask for weapons, the devs assumed that you ended G1 as a warrior. In therms of freedom to do whatever you want and explore the world, G3 is the best

Let's not go too in depth into the G3 is good or bad debate that is a bit too off-topic for my tastes.

First of you can naturally like what you want so I am not saying your opinion is invalid however:

G3 had shit combat, G3 has a World full of uninteresting quests that originate (imho) in the fact that they vastly increased the scope, therefore G3 has practically no immersion. The Reputation system is completely broken and pointless having enough reputation to buy the Paladin Armor while killing all of the resistance? Sure, no problem choices simply do not matter. It also look shit even compared to the second game. The endings are short, and practically do not matter.

Sure you can always say that the Publisher is at fault and there is certainly part of that but to be honest at least thanks to Crowdfunding we should all be aware that developers are no infallible magic unicorns.

In truth I would say, possibly the combat and quests may have been fixed if JoWood hadn't demanded that their deadline is met but a lot of the stuff is fundamentally badly designed, especially the faction system.

I also want to make something clear: Developers are not forced to sell themselves to shitty publishers, they do so on their own accord, often so that their leaders can fill their Pockets with the "stuff that makes dreams come true" or if we look at it less cynical to avoid the Risk that comes with having a company.

We can see the same with the Epic shit currently and really i'm not willing to excuse this for them, not only because I think that these aren't good reasons but also because it's simply not my Job as someone who might buy their Products. (And no before a dev chimes in, i have worked on Commercial video games myself and my position has not changed in the least there.)

 

[Cryomancer]

G3 had shit combat, G3 has a World full of uninteresting quests that originate (imho) in the fact that they vastly increased the scope, therefore G3 has practically no immersion. The Reputation system is completely broken and pointless having enough reputation to buy the Paladin Armor while killing all of the resistance? Sure, no problem choices simply do not matter. It also look shit even compared to the second game. The endings are short, and practically do not matter.

It could be easily fixed if killing the resistance made your reputation with rebels go down. The "consequences" mod i believe fix most problems. You lose reputation by doing it...

As for G3 having shit combat, G3 has a shit MELEE combat. Mages and Archers experience a much better combat than ever. And some melee problems could be solved with alternative AI

In fact, if you wanna be a mage, Gothic 2 offers some shit combat and shit quest design. First. Why i can't try convince Water Mages that i did the right thing on the first game and become accepted again as a water mage? Why Xardas who teaches circle 6 for me in the first game and saved me on G2 can't teaches circle 1? Why i can't become a water mage or a Xardas apprentice who learns necromancy? Why i have only the option to ask him for weapons? Did the devs assumed that i din't learned magic in the first game? Why i can't get Milten testimony that i was a valuable fire magician who helped him and show it on monastery and be accepted on circle of fire? Why i need to to tons of boring quests like escort a sheep, then quests that goes completely against a Lawful good Innos servant like put a guard to sleep to steal a hammer from the monastery to destroy a golem(a novice who does that would probably be expelled, not promoted) and can only be a fire magician?

And why spells are so weak? On G1, most fire spells had a damage/mana consumption ratio of 30 and some like Storm of Fire, of 50. Yep. 500 damage for 10 mana. On G2, most spells has 4/6 damage/mana consumption rate. 99% of my time as a fire magician on G2 wa using skeleton goblin or ice block and spamming melee attacks. And that is not the image who comes to my mind when someone mentions a fire magician who serves the Fire God Innos. I could use damaging spell? Yep and run out of mana before i could kill any enemy. Having to use a lot of mana potions and waste far more money than the mob loot could give to me.

"but fear can trivialize dragon fights" with scrolls, even paladins and mercs could do that...

I have more than 300 hours of G3. See my liberation video. The combat doesn't look shit.

orcslaying as a water mage

Are you really comparing it with ArcaniA? ArcaniA core mechanics are broken. Cooldowns on runes that shold't even work makes no sense. The story is childish. The gameplay is ULTRA LINEAR. On gog user reviews, gothic 1/2 has 4.6/5 ratting by his users or 92/10. Gothic 3 is 4/5 or 8/10. arcania is just 2.2/10 or 4.4/10. You can't compare then both.

TL;DR - Is not fair to compare Gothic 3 with ArcaniA. Gothic 3 is just a unfinished game. If they had time, i believe that most problems with melee combat IE - Rapiers and Spears with the same animation of swords, would be fixed AND the consequences, for betraying added, better melee AI could be added. Mods fixed some of this problems. Arcania is a Broken game by his core and no more time could fix it.

See this review



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The problem of G1 remake is that remembers me more of Arcania with linearity, handholding, bullet spongee enemies, etc;

 

[Lord of Riva]

As said, I think we should not continue this debate as it is offtopic.

I really do not want to shit on the game you like, I also have sometimes things I do like and everyone else thinks is shit. But I still think that what I wrote is correct.

One thing though, I never compared G3 and Arcania, I never played the latter. I only got it through some bundle or something tried it once and it didn't work. As I also expected nothing from it I never bothered getting it to run.
So just to make it clear, I was comparing G3 to G1&2. And even if Arcania is worse, that does not make G3 any better in my eyes.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I really do not want to shit on the game you like

What a decline. Especially considering that Gothic 3 is a unsalvable piece of shit.

 

[Lord of Riva]

I really do not want to shit on the game you like

What a decline. Especially considering that Gothic 3 is a unsalvable piece of shit.

Look at my Avatar I never do Full damage. Also trying to bring the discussion away from the decline that is G3 so that we can get to discussing the great Teaser