KickStarter Grim Dawn

[Lacrymas]

You can have an entire zoo of summons, the skeleton CD isn't a problem. It's there so you don't spam them at bosses. Diablo 2 didn't have a CD on the skellies, but they did require corpses. There are usually no corpses near bosses in GD, so that's why they opted for a CD. But either way, like I said, you can have a menagerie of various pets. I'd say a pet-focused necro isn't the best choice as a first character (i.e. untwinked), I'd have gone either Shaman or Occultist as a first class so the tougher pets can protect the squishier ones a bit. I'm fairly certain the Shaman pet has a taunt even.

 

[Damned Registrations]

What level are you?

Lv 54, almost 55. I an on elite, finished the base game and played a little of the DLCs, but my undead is too weak. Is not that i an dying a lot. in fact, i only died at lv 42 for the first time. The problem is that in order to have 10 sekeletons, i need to cast a skill with long cooldown 4 times and managing cooldowns to re raise your minions after each battle is just not fun...

You should have gotten an item from the malmouth content, an ascendant cowl. Lets you summon 6 skeles at once intsead of 3. And the cooldown should be under 10 seconds by this point, so it's less than 10 seconds to go from 0 to 10 skeles. Certainly not any worse than old D2 summoning 30 skeletons one at a time. And yeah, they shouldn't be dying that often. My Necro/Occultist has 4-5 other pets, 1 of which has taunt and I could have 2 out at all times if I weren't too lazy to keep recasting it. I usually only lose like 1-2 skeles during an entire zone. But I'm still not in Elite, maybe the elite difficulty murders pets faster than the level 70 stuff in normal game.

 

[Cryomancer]

but they did require corpses

Requiring corpses makes WAY more sense. On Ultima Online, you had to have corpses and reagents. Also, on D2, you could make a iron golem absorbing a item propriety and could revive enemy monsters. I downloaded a D2 mod only to have the same experience of D2 - IE : No cooldowns and a lot of cool skills, not limited to pets, like Bone Spear, Bone spirit, Bone Wall, Bone PRison(...)

Here is a guy killing hell baal naked on D2

You should have gotten an item from the malmouth content

Thanks a lot. I din't made the DLC content. Honestly, i din't even knew how to access the DLCs(Except crubicle). Will try on elite when i an higher level with better gear.

 

[Lacrymas]

It makes more sense but it's not appropriate for GD. It's also a QoL thing, I still have PTSD flashbacks from Diablo one-shotting all my skellies with that red lazor of his and having to backtrack searching for unexploited corpses (you would've complained backtracking isn't fun if that was the case, it requires more time than the CD after all). They could have added a spell which summons corpses and let that have a CD, but it really doesn't matter past the first 20 levels or so if you know what you are doing. Focusing ONLY on skelingtons is not a good idea.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep; but do you know any mod which adds D2 classes or similar classes without CDs?

 

[Damned Registrations]

It also really only makes more sense in the context of human corpses. Raising skeletons with swords and shields out of a dead cougar or swarm of insects makes significantly less sense than needing a breather for a few seconds.

 

[Cryomancer]

On D2, skeletons seems to be using bone style axe and bone style shield, not "metal swords and shields". And insect swarm should't drop corpses.

But cooldown in itself is a thing which makes no sense in almost every iteration that i saw. And prejudiced all franchises which they got introduced. Examples? Just compare Gothic 1/2/3 with ArcaniA or even Risen 3. Or compare D1 with D3. See BioWare RPG's pre CDs and post CDs. This is a Diablo class mod which unfortunately has a lot of CDs and no AI curses... When a game has no cooldowns, it automatically becomes better because i can focus on the game, not on artificial timers. Eg : Dragon's Dogma. If Blast ARrows had cooldowns, i would't love the game that much...

I have heard that older versions of D2 class mod din't had cooldowns, but i could't find it...

 

[DeepOcean]

Cooldowns are cancer wherever they are introduced, on action games, they are even worse, there isnt a worse boner killing than having a skill that you need to keep track of each 4s intervals, it is so fucking annoying.

 

[DeepOcean]

Recommend me some fun builds, codex. I already played as shaman+arcanist primal striker (most chad build in the game IMO) and inquisitor+demo (kinda gay ranged twink). No pets plz

Two pretty fun classes you played, go play with poison Night Blade + Occultist or a Ice Night Blade + Inquisitor traps, Night Blade is pretty fun, squishy as hell and you need to keep moving alot, it has the highest single target DPS of the game though, quickest boss killer.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Summoning skeletons requires opening a portal to hell, it takes some time for the portal to close before you can open another. There's your lore reason. If you don't like it, I could invent like 6 more on a whim. It doesn't make any less sense than cast time, reagents, or mana cost. Or spell slots,

Gameplay wise, being able to summon 6 useful skeletons a second would be pretty hard to balance, and making the delay occur after casting instead of before or tying it into mana causes the least amount of disruption to normal gameplay.

The worst boner killer in a game is having every single ability be an irrelevant tickle you need to cast constantly to appease ADD meth addicts. If anything I'd like to see longer cooldowns get put in games more often; powerful spells you can only use once every 5 minutes that need to be used strategically, summons you actually need to keep alive instead of throwing away like garbage, emergency defenses that can protect you from a fluke or bit of lag once in a while without making you consistently able to facetank everything brainlessly. Playing through an entire act while only ever casting 2 spells + some permanent buffs/summons is just sad.

 

[Cryomancer]

being able to summon 6 useful skeletons a second would be pretty hard to balance

Immersion, fun and consequences >>> balance.

Seriously. Just look to VtMB. Nosferatu is far harder than any other clan and if the devs had made the deformity just a -1 seduction instead of a crippling curse, or removed it would be far more balanced but would made the game far harder. Firearms in other hands, on the beginning, you have just a awful .38 special revover which is ok vs unarmored humans(vampire hunters generally use armor) but awful against even the lowest of supernaturals. On late game, you have a .338 LM scoped rifle, flamethrower and firearms become a easy mode(BTW, vampires are weak against fire)

Talking about firearms, fallout new vegas limited the usage of grenades(25mm and 40mm) by making then hard to find, available in few supply on vendors and costing a lot. Anthem limited by cooldowns... That said, cooldowns are a thing normalized on rpgs that rarely exists on other games and on the new contra for eg, everyone is criticizing they putting cooldowns on weapons.

powerful spells you can only use once every 5 minutes that need to be used strategically, summons you actually need to keep alive instead of throwing away like garbage, emergency defenses

Games with cooldowns become a every-time same rotation spam, not a "strategic game". And you are assuming that the unique way to have strategic use of spells and other things is via cooldowns. And are not. Pick D2 iron golem for eg, to craft a iron golem, you need to sacrifice an item. The golem absorbs the item property.

Other example is Dragon's Dogma MAker's Finger, a arrow which can OHK anything but the toughest bosses and costs 300k gold and exists in a ultra limited quantity. Or Sacrificial Bolt for MAgick Archer, is a insane deadly blast of darkness but you need to sacrifice a companion to use the spell.

Divine Intervention on M&M VI~VIII was clearly the strongest healing magic ever but aging the caster was a huge toll to be payed. Moon ray could only be used in outdoors at night. Sharpmetal is only deadly at CQB.

 

[Citizen]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with cooldowns on powerful spells in action games. I mean grim dawn basically has skills like 3 seconds of complete invulnerability and damage deflection (arcanist), how else would you implement it without putting it on a 30 sec cooldown?

Gating it behind some insane manacost or charging process would go against the main purpose of the spell: emergency button for your squishy arcanist that otherwise dies instantly if mispositioned

 

[Cryomancer]

I mean grim dawn basically has skills like 3 seconds of complete invulnerability and damage deflection (arcanist), how else would you implement it without putting it on a 30 sec cooldown?

Dark Souls 2 has a invunerability Hex(Repel) and it had no cooldown.

Gating it behind some insane manacost or charging process would go against the main purpose of the spell: emergency button for your squishy arcanist that otherwise dies instantly if mispositioned

You don't need complete invulnerability for it. A spell which allow you to assume a mistform where you can't regen mana or health, nor drink potions, move very fast but takes only damage from "holy" sources and has a high energy upkeep doubles each second will fulfill that propose. And after you assume the corporeal form, takes like 5 seconds to the energy start regenerating. A spell which converts mana/energy into "temporary hit points" with a mana upkeep cost could be a interesting cheating death skill.

On Pathfinder Kingmaker, if you are a sorcerer of undead bloodline, you can become incorporeal. It doesn't give all P&P benefits BUT you are immune to non magical attacks and spells and elemental attacks are half effective against you. I don't need to say that no spell or spell like ability has cooldown on kingmaker.

And note : I downloaded D2 classes mod exactly because i wanna play close as possible to D2 classes. Already played a lot and even before necro, my favorite class was warlock(occultist + arcanist). Bone armor only protects from physical damage and cyclone armor only for elemental on D2. There is no complete invulnerability on D2.

 

[gurugeorge]

Cooldowns are cancer wherever they are introduced, on action games, they are even worse, there isnt a worse boner killing than having a skill that you need to keep track of each 4s intervals, it is so fucking annoying.

Oddly enough, I think that's a function largely of how well the cooldown is implemented in terms of visual feedback. There are cooldown icons and cooldown icons - if you have to keep track of it then it's failed its job as an icon, it should come to your attention when it's off cooldown. The best cooldown icon implementation IMHO is the "shrinks to tiny, then gradually grows and flashes+has some kind of ring or box around it when it's ready."

IOW, cooldowns are only annoying when you have to waste brain cpu cycles on keeping track of them, if you don't, then you hardly notice them qua cooldown, and if there's feedback that gives your brain a rough and ready unconscious sense of when it's going to come back if you glance at it (like the "shrinking/growing" type), then it's easy.

Ofc it's different again with really tight grouped gameplay like in WoW, then you have to devote some brainpower to keeping track of them. But just for general gameplay, I think it's more in the implementation than the design choice itself.

 

[Lacrymas]

I usually don't like cooldowns either, but you can't win with hack and slashers in this department. It's either cooldowns or mana (or a combination), both of which are of dubious design quality. I haven't hated the cooldown implementation in GD, make of that what you will. I usually hate them because they impose a DPS rotation I despise, but most damaging abilities in GD don't have a CD, so you can't rotate them in that way.

 

[Damned Registrations]

We've had this discussion before. This moron just has no sense of game design and wants to add in abilities that would make the player totally invincible or be utterly useless by balancing them with things like money or mana costs. He doesn't think of interactions between mechanics like increasing gold income, mana potions, or the ability to recall back to town. I mean hell, he's bitching here because he can't summon skeletons faster than they can be killed no matter what the situation is. He thinks giving it an 10 second cast time instead would be preferable.

 

[Sykar]

You can have an entire zoo of summons, the skeleton CD isn't a problem. It's there so you don't spam them at bosses. Diablo 2 didn't have a CD on the skellies, but they did require corpses. There are usually no corpses near bosses in GD, so that's why they opted for a CD. But either way, like I said, you can have a menagerie of various pets. I'd say a pet-focused necro isn't the best choice as a first character (i.e. untwinked), I'd have gone either Shaman or Occultist as a first class so the tougher pets can protect the squishier ones a bit. I'm fairly certain the Shaman pet has a taunt even.

Blight Fiend?

 

[Lacrymas]

Blight Fiend?

It's an option, but you get Briarthorn and Hellhound faster, i.e. less ability points needed to get to them in the tree. Necromancer is hard to start out with. Drain Essence is very gear dependent, something you wouldn't have if it's your first char. Even if it wasn't, there isn't any good gear at such low levels anyway. And skeletons are squishy + cooldown that he doesn't want. Starting out as a Shaman or Occultist gives better options, either a spammable ability like Dreeg's Evil Eye or good weapon bonuses you can spec out of later.

I am thinking of finally making a Necro + Occultist (I do like my edge lords) pet build that I've wanted since I bought the game when the level cap was like 30 in EA (necro wasn't even planned yet), so I could start with Necro on Elite and report back if it's a problem or he just doesn't know what he's doing. Which is very possible since it's his first char afaik.

 

[Sykar]

Blight Fiend?

It's an option, but you get Briarthorn and Hellhound faster, i.e. less ability points needed to get to them in the tree. Necromancer is hard to start out with. Drain Essence is very gear dependent, something you wouldn't have if it's your first char. Even if it wasn't, there isn't any good gear at such low levels anyway. And skeletons are squishy + cooldown that he doesn't want. Starting out as a Shaman or Occultist gives better options, either a spammable ability like Dreeg's Evil Eye or good weapon bonuses you can spec out of later.

I am thinking of finally making a Necro + Occultist (I do like my edge lords) pet build that I've wanted since I bought the game when the level cap was like 30 in EA (necro wasn't even planned yet), so I could start with Necro on Elite and report back if it's a problem or he just doesn't know what he's doing. Which is very possible since it's his first char afaik.

All you need for DE is maxed Spectral Wrath. BF needs 15 points in the mastery, a mere two levels later, hardly a compelling argument against Necro as starting mastery.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. My necro is a pure pet build, my only direct damage is pox and thats just to trigger another summon, it doesn't really hurt anything. Throw the Imp devotion on your skeletons and they'll just delete everything before it even fights back till like level 30, and at that point you've got an army.

 

[Lacrymas]

The other argument is that Briarthorns and Hellhounds get a taunt faster and it's better than the threat generated from the Blightfiend's aura afaik, because they are abilities. I'm not saying it's suuuper difficult to start out as Necro, but it's slightly easier to start with Shaman or Occultist first and you forego the cooldown he hates so much.

 

[EruDaan]

Recommend me some fun builds, codex. I already played as shaman+arcanist primal striker (most chad build in the game IMO) and inquisitor+demo (kinda gay ranged twink). No pets plz

Pure Demolitionist - throw Blackwater Cocktails like there is no tomorrow, level the skill tree up till Pipe / Canister Bomb and the fun starts from there. Take "The Big One" and put your points there. (Almost) no need for any weapons or weapon skills, just try to get augments and whatnot that furthers your fire damage. For a bit of variation, get the Relic "Conflagration" and burn whatever stands in your way. Try to take (Star) Constellations that improve your fire damage. There are also several monster infrequents that modify Blackwater Coktail, TBO and Canister Bomb.

Try things out, different relics, different items but in the end there is no other truth but how incredible satisfying it is to see ones enemies buuuuurn!

 

[Citizen]

You don't need complete invulnerability for it.

You hate cooldowns so much you want to remove most cool and powerful spells from the game and add weaker less impactful versions without cd instead? Nice gamedesign you have there

The only cooldowns I don't approve are the cd on buff spells that start ticking after the spell is finished, but thankfully GD doesn't have them and uses auras mostly for passives

 

[Cryomancer]

his moron just has no sense of game design and wants to add in abilities that would make the player totally invincible or be utterly useless by balancing them with things like money or mana costs. He doesn't think of interactions between mechanics like increasing gold income, mana potions, or the ability to recall back to town. I mean hell, he's bitching here because he can't summon skeletons faster than they can be killed no matter what the situation is. He thinks giving it an 10 second cast time instead would be preferable

No sorry, i was wrong. Cooldowns are great, nothing more fun than watch artificial timers for half of a minute after losing your skeletons in a battle. This is far fun than the necromancy experience of Arcanum, Diablo 2, BG2, Phantasy mods for M&B, Icewind Dale,
Grimoire: HotWE, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Pathfinder WoTR, etc. How dare i was to wanna focus on the action on a action focused game? That is heresy!!! If someone makes a mod which puts Diablo 2 classes into GD without cooldowns, that mod should be removed and the mod creator public executed by this heresy. People who like more immersive RPG's without the ludonarrative dissonance of modern games should't be allowed to have fun and mod their games /sarcasm

You hate cooldowns so much you want to remove most cool and powerful spells from the game and add weaker less impactful versions without cd instead? Nice gamedesign you have there

Yes. Complete invulnerability by itself should't exist. It takes out all tension of the combat. I love Dragon's Dogma, but the Wakestones takes out all tension of the combat. But i an not asking for a no cooldown mod for base GD necro. I an asking if there is a mod like Diablo class mods which doesn't have invulnerability. Be able to play as any D2 class with better graphics would be so awesome.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Grim Dawn is great