Grimoire Thread

[gestalt11]

Here's another bug/quirk I noticed in combat:
> If a character lands a killing blow on the final enemy in the front row group and gains extra bonus attacks - they lose all the bonus attacks when the second row of enemies move forward. The next character in the party takes his turn as normal.

I assumed this was intended. That essentially all targeting is only applicable to a group and not a row. In other words there is no overflow between groups and that melee extra attacks are essentially equivalent to row based AOE.

 

[Tarrant]

I therefore conclude the game is in an Open Beta state, which probably implies 2-3 iterations of tweaks

Yes, it very obviously should have been early access, and the rapid updates since release demonstrate this fact. I still don't understand why Cleve was so opposed to EA, other than ego. Surely it would be obvious that it needed more work when people got to play it.

I am not going to say it should be Early Access because that is completely vague term and people throw complete hissy fits because they expected it to mean Beta Test when the Dev meant Alpha Test or whatever.

Early Access is just a shit show unless the Developers are extremely clear about what the actual state of the game is in their eyes AND EVEN THEN most people won't listen or have no idea what the difference is between Beta and Alpha and just assign random ass expectations.

Personally I think the use of "Early Accees" just creates tons of problems. Doesn't mean I would not release a game on Steam under the Early Access label, but it does not solve problems (except possibly the need for money which might be enough of thing to make you do it), it creates more problems.

I disagree, and I think there's a pervasive misconception about what EA means to Steam users. As a consumer, I'd have very much preferred if the dev would have been up front about what I was purchasing, especially for $40, and especially with my being the only person on the internet who wasn't familiar with Cleve beforehand.

Case in point - I've been on Steam since early 2004, have 650 games, and this was my first refund in 13+ years. The lack of honesty up front is what prompted me to refund more than the state of the game itself.

And for the record, other games released as EA have done just fine -- Factorio being the biggest go-to example. In fact, releasing a game as EA tends to encourage fans to *want* to help improve the game. Certainly there would have been disgruntled customers -- there's no way around that. But I expect they'd have been the exception, not the rule. I myself would have been happy to play, knowing what I was buying, and to make suggestions to Cleve for improvement (that said, I doubt Cleve would have been entirely receptive, but that's a different problem altogether).

 

[karnak]

(Felip are you Mexican?)

He is brazillian, we are the improved version of a mexican.

hahahahahahah-

Then its a Brazilian standoff and there is still hope for us yet =)

Yep.

 

[gestalt11]

I therefore conclude the game is in an Open Beta state, which probably implies 2-3 iterations of tweaks

Yes, it very obviously should have been early access, and the rapid updates since release demonstrate this fact. I still don't understand why Cleve was so opposed to EA, other than ego. Surely it would be obvious that it needed more work when people got to play it.

I am not going to say it should be Early Access because that is completely vague term and people throw complete hissy fits because they expected it to mean Beta Test when the Dev meant Alpha Test or whatever.

Early Access is just a shit show unless the Developers are extremely clear about what the actual state of the game is in their eyes AND EVEN THEN most people won't listen or have no idea what the difference is between Beta and Alpha and just assign random ass expectations.

Personally I think the use of "Early Accees" just creates tons of problems. Doesn't mean I would not release a game on Steam under the Early Access label, but it does not solve problems (except possibly the need for money which might be enough of thing to make you do it), it creates more problems.

I disagree, and I think there's a pervasive misconception about what EA means to Steam users. As a consumer, I'd have very much preferred if the dev would have been up front about what I was purchasing, especially for $40, and especially with my being the only person on the internet who wasn't familiar with Cleve beforehand.

Case in point - I've been on Steam since early 2004, have 650 games, and this was my first refund in 13+ years. The lack of honesty up front is what prompted me to refund more than the state of the game itself.

And for the record, other games released as EA have done just fine -- Factorio being the biggest go-to example. In fact, releasing a game as EA tends to encourage fans to *want* to help improve the game. Certainly there would have been disgruntled customers -- there's no way around that. But I expect they'd have been the exception, not the rule. I myself would have been happy to play, knowing what I was buying, and to make suggestions to Cleve for improvement (that said, I doubt Cleve would have been entirely receptive, but that's a different problem altogether).

I don't want to imply EA can't work. This is provably wrong, not a matter of opinion. EA has worked well in certain cases. Logically we only need one exception to prove a universal statement wrong and we have more than one case.

However there are also many cases where EA went poorly or was a bit of a scam (this is usually on the developer not the users, but I have seen a couple cases where the users were flat dickheads).

My main point is that the term Early Access is useless for characterizing the game. Its just a Steam program. It doesn't mean shit really. It only means what the developers and their user community make it mean.

I would encourage all reviewers to NEVER use it for reviewing purposes except in relation to how a game is being sold. If you want to characterize its release state then use Alpha/Closed Beta/Open Beta. If you want to say this game is roughly in an Open Beta state and should therefore have release as EA, fine. But telling someonge a game is in Early Access state is like saying Wisconsin is somewhere on the planet Earth.

Edit: Also Cleve is probably somewhat, or extremely, paranoid. So he probably thinks EA is a scam and therefore would be likely to believe everyone would think he is scamming them if he released the game in EA. Even if that is not the case, psychological projection is incredibly powerful even for people who are aware of how powerful it is.

 

[Brancaleone]

Worst PR ever - is there literally any person or group that Cleve doesn't take pleasure in offending? http://i.imgur.com/SzTpCjJ.png
There's the entire German market alienated.

By the way, isn't the post he is replying to written in Dutch?

 

[Infinitron]

I've read felipe's review. It's fair, not Roxor-level negative.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Lots of us in the old Grimoire thread suggested he should go EA first (a one man operation making something like this was always going to result in a rocky ride for a few weeks) but that's in the past now and not going to change. And from what I recall in Steam's documentation they have some basic requirements of what Early Access should mean (whether this is enforced or not is obviously debatable) . So EA is not supposed to be used just for bugfixing or polish, but for collaborative development of features and content.

And while a team of Codex spergs could have really helped smooth out the combat, I think most here know Cleve well enough to guess whether he would ever have been interested in this sort of process. So here we are, with the game we've been calling on him to release for years, with him still patching it every day and making grand plans to improve it. And he's still Cleve, just with less sleep than usual, so he's falling out even with some of his supporters. And it was always likely to be this way if Grimoire ever came out.

 

[mwnn85]

Worst PR ever - is there literally any person or group that Cleve doesn't take pleasure in offending? http://i.imgur.com/SzTpCjJ.png
There's the entire German market alienated.

By the way, isn't the post he is replying to written in Dutch?

Apparently.

Good old Cleve killing two birds with one stone.

inb4 Lady Error's retadred rating - is that you Cleve?

 

[TheGameSquid]

If I want to buy the game I want to know about the game - I don't care about any objectionable behaviour he might have been involved in.

I don't agree with this statement. My reasoning is very simple:

It's very clear that Grimoire still has plenty of polishing left to do, and I don't think anyone is contesting this (right?). We're talking about a game that broke its save game format several days after going live after being in development for an incredibly long time. People who are looking into buying the game right now are probably wondering if they can trust a man like Cleve with providing post-launch support. In felipepepe's case, his (minor) criticism was met with a straight ban. I'm not sure I would trust a developer to provide the solid post-launch support that I talked about when the sole man developing the game has a hard time facing the hard facts about the state of the game.

Personally, in this time of Steam cash grabs, Early Access shit, broken 1.0 games, etc., I think it's more important than ever to do a background check on the developer before purchasing a product. When I buy a new game from Illwinter Design, I know I will be getting long term support for my game. When wondered if I should buy Might & Magic X I decided to wait for a sale because I figured Ubi wasn't going to bother supporting the game for a long time and it was released in a less than stable state (and that's exactly what happened).

TL;DR Doing a background check on devs before buying games that still require some work sounds like a good idea. I do think felipepepe's information is useful.

P.S. Yes I'm aware of CMB and Felipe's history, but I choose to believe Felipe's above that and tried to give a fair assessment.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

That's nice Zorba the Hutt but I think k EA is mostly so that Valve can monetize hopes and dreams.

 

[Lady_Error]

Still, changing his review on Steam to not recommended because he is butthurt at the developer shows that he cannot separate the game from his personal feelings towards the dev. People don't care how you feel about Cleve, felipepepe, they care about the actual game.

 

[TheGameSquid]

By the way, isn't the post he is replying to written in Dutch?

Yup

 

[Tarrant]

[QUOTE="Brancaleone,
inb4 Lady Error's retadred rating - is that you Cleve?

It's not Cleve.. technically. But he's got Cleve's cock so far down his throat that for all intents and purposes, it's a Cleve-LadyError chimera.

My working theory is all the retard and shit post ratings are the only buttons he can reach and are likely a cry for help, but I don't know what to do. They share an HP pool at this point.

 

[Infinitron]

I've read felipe's review. It's fair, not Roxor-level negative.

Let me elaborate on this.

I think too much is being made of felipepepe's assertion that "The game should have been Early Access", and perhaps it was unwise of him to lead with that. It's not really the point.

The real point is that he found most of the latter half of the game significantly less fun due to various issues. And his review reflects that. It's what reviews are supposed to do.

Saying that those issues could have been fixed in Early Access is just an interpretation. Knowing Cleve, he likely wouldn't have changed a thing.

 

[Roguey]

In felipepepe's case, his (minor) criticism was met with a straight ban. I'm not sure I would trust a developer to provide the solid post-launch support that I talked about when the sole man developing the game has a hard time facing the hard facts about the state of the game.

Cleve is honest about the state of his game. Felipe was banned for putting words in his mouth and refusing to accept being corrected.

 

[gestalt11]

That's nice Zorba the Hutt but I think k EA is mostly so that Valve can monetize hopes and dreams.

That's the best shit to monetize, man. There is one born every minute ....

God I wish we taught people the art of the con in high school. It'd be the most useful class anyone ever took.

 

[Scroo]

Super intelligent neanderthal cleve cannot seperate Dutch from German. The ignorance of this guy...

 

[gestalt11]

Super intelligent neanderthal cleve cannot seperate Dutch from German. The ignorance of this guy...

Dutch are just soggy Germans.

 

[Bumvelcrow]

Saying that those issues could have been fixed in Early Access is just an interpretation. Knowing Cleve, he likely wouldn't have changed a thing.

We've had a couple of dozen post-'release' patches, so he's certainly doing something. Perhaps the criticism of his precious game is providing some much-needed motivation.

 

[DavidBVal]

Still, changing his review on Steam to not recommended because he is butthurt at the developer shows that he cannot separate the game from his personal feelings towards the dev. People don't care how you feel about Cleve, felipepepe, they care about the actual game.

So, would you recommend a restaurant that serves good food ever even if the chef insulted you and kicked you out for suggesting the steak was too salty? It is fair to assume that being on the receiving end of Cleve's wrath right now isn't very difficult. It is not a bad idea to warn people about such behavior; I for one am not a person affected by being called names and banned from a forum, but such thing can ruin a game for many people. I can see it being part of the review.

My review is still positive (despite being banned), but if in 30 days we have no manual and there are no substantial changes in balance, I might change it. I am honestly undecided, as the game merits are very strong.

 

[Lady_Error]

inb4 Lady Error's retadred rating - is that you Cleve?

I rated you as retarded because you claim outright bullshit:

Why does the Sage get Lockpicking but the Thief gets even less and no Inspection. This is the greatest CRPG balance of all time?

Of course Thief has Inspection. If you cannot get even basic facts like this right, why should anyone take your words seriously?

 

[mwnn85]

They start the game with zero skill in Inspection - that should be obvious from the picture I uploaded.

Plus the Sage started with higher skill in Lock Picking.

I don't remember Wizards in D&D or Bishops in Wizardry typically doing the trap disarming.

I take the starter bonus of skill points on a Thief character to correct this.

The point is - the game is full of strange quirks like the above.

 

[Konjad]

 

[Lady_Error]

It is not a bad idea to warn people about such behavior

You're on the Codex, dude. If you think Codex members should warn others of Codex-like behaviour, something is not quite right.

 

[DavidBVal]

It is not a bad idea to warn people about such behavior

You're on the Codex, dude. If you think Codex members should warn others of Codex-like behaviour, something is not quite right.

I thought we were talking about a Steam Review?

 

[buru5]

So, would you recommend a restaurant that serves good food ever even if the chef insulted you and kicked you out for suggesting the steak was too salty?

Shitty argument, not comparable at all. Blocking someone from the game's forum is not comparable to denying service to the product.