Grimoire Thread

[SevenSidedDice]

I have an older savefile at the top of the ladder. I went in, and the secret entrance was open (I had used the owl before). I went in, waited, and came out. Not locked. Then Galen cast True Seeing at 48 and I went to the other side and walked around until it wore off, waited, interacted with the plaque, fought a few packrats, "look"ed around and the door was still open. No idea how that last one happened but I can't reproduce it.

 

[Gunnar]

Yes, you can lethal blow on a backstab. Later on you will face enemies with hundreds of hit points. If you backstab for 150 damage with a character who has lethal bow, they can still get an instant kill.

Is there any point to using backstab, since it takes a turn to line it up and lethal blow matters much more than doing extra damage?

 

[Dorateen]

Yes, you can lethal blow on a backstab. Later on you will face enemies with hundreds of hit points. If you backstab for 150 damage with a character who has lethal bow, they can still get an instant kill.

Is there any point to using backstab, since it takes a turn to line it up and lethal blow matters much more than doing extra damage?

Thieves do not get the Lethal Blow skill, so it is an option for those characters to deal large amounts of damage. When you get multiple attacks on a turn, each attack is a backstab. So one round of hiding, for potentillay 100+ damage x 3 or more for the rest of the battle.

But even with a pirate, who does get Lethal Blow, I found hiding/backstabbing effective on end game monsters such as psyclops and neurophrites, they seem to be more resistant to instant kills, and have a lot of hitpoints. Facing a cluster or multiple clusters of them, a pirate backstabbing came in handy.

 

[Brozef]

When you get multiple attacks on a turn, each attack is a backstab. So one round of hiding, for potentillay 100+ damage x 3 or more for the rest of the battle.

Wait what? Can backstab trigger for the remainder of the combat?!? I thought it went one round hiding for one round backstabbing and then you'd have to hide again, no? Have I been doing it wrong the whole time or is this a V2 change?

 

[Dorateen]

I thought it went one round hiding for one round backstabbing and then you'd have to hide again, no?

Only need to hide once... of course you have to succeed. If you fail to hide in shadows, then you would try again. But once in stealth mode (there's a little icon on the character's portrait) it remains in this state until end of combat. This is how it worked pre-V2.

 

[Haba]

Actually... does invisible count for backstabs?

 

[Dorateen]

I'm not positive, but I don't think so. I would expect that backstabbing is specifically tied to the Stealth mechanic. I think invisibility is just for protective purposes.

 

[Brozef]

I thought it went one round hiding for one round backstabbing and then you'd have to hide again, no?

Only need to hide once... of course you have to succeed. If you fail to hide in shadows, then you would try again. But once in stealth mode (there's a little icon on the character's portrait) it remains in this state until end of combat. This is how it worked pre-V2.

Yeah, my thief failed so frequently that I never bothered much with stealth, since most combats were over before he succeeded... Still I always assumed attacking did break stealth.
Amazing! Will have to try it out once I get into V2.

would rate your post :informative: if I could

 

[Gunnar]

I thought it went one round hiding for one round backstabbing and then you'd have to hide again, no?

Only need to hide once... of course you have to succeed. If you fail to hide in shadows, then you would try again. But once in stealth mode (there's a little icon on the character's portrait) it remains in this state until end of combat. This is how it worked pre-V2.

Is it possible to hide, then enter berserk mode and get berserk backstabs?

 

[Dorateen]

I thought it went one round hiding for one round backstabbing and then you'd have to hide again, no?

Only need to hide once... of course you have to succeed. If you fail to hide in shadows, then you would try again. But once in stealth mode (there's a little icon on the character's portrait) it remains in this state until end of combat. This is how it worked pre-V2.

Is it possible to hide, then enter berserk mode and get berserk backstabs?

That's a good question. I never tried it, but it is scary to think of the damage a berserking character could do on your own party members if their skill is not high enough.

 

[Efe]

if everyone is hidden, they cant target my party?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I have an older savefile at the top of the ladder. I went in, and the secret entrance was open (I had used the owl before). I went in, waited, and came out. Not locked. Then Galen cast True Seeing at 48 and I went to the other side and walked around until it wore off, waited, interacted with the plaque, fought a few packrats, "look"ed around and the door was still open. No idea how that last one happened but I can't reproduce it.

Never heard of this before. How come you didn't report it on the forum?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Actually... does invisible count for backstabs?

Yes.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

if everyone is hidden, they cant target my party?

There will be one character that is automatically exposed. If the monsters look and see everybody standing behind columns where the party was before, they are going to know they are all behind the columns.

 

[Gunnar]

Any opinions on Lethal Blow + Hand to Hand + Ninjitsu vs Lethal Blow + Lethal Blow weapon + weapon skill ? As I understand it, Lethal Blow will trigger with any attack, but happens more frequently when you have a weapon that is *lethal* equipped. Is this just another damage vs lethal blow frequency trade off? (probably means its better to have ninja guy also be backstabbing guy for max damage)

 

[Brozef]

Any opinions on Lethal Blow + Hand to Hand + Ninjitsu vs Lethal Blow + Lethal Blow weapon + weapon skill ? As I understand it, Lethal Blow will trigger with any attack, but happens more frequently when you have a weapon that is *lethal* equipped. Is this just another damage vs lethal blow frequency trade off? (probably means its better to have ninja guy also be backstabbing guy for max damage)

Pretty sure lethal blow only triggers with lethal weapons.

 

[Gunnar]

I checked it out and yeah that appears to be so.

So why use hand to hand with ninjitsu instead of just a weapon skill?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I checked it out and yeah that appears to be so.

So why use hand to hand with ninjitsu instead of just a weapon skill?

As your skill improves you will begin doing double, triple and even quadruple damage with your bare hands. It's one of the better, more reliable weapons in the game at higher levels of skill. I was trying to mimic the same in Wizardry 7, which I really enjoyed discovering this was another faculty that could be developed in combat. There were weapons you could find in the game that did even more damage but the one assassin ninja in the party could be counted on at all times to do consistently high damage fighting with open hands.

 

[Rpguy]

I checked it out and yeah that appears to be so.

So why use hand to hand with ninjitsu instead of just a weapon skill?

As your skill improves you will begin doing double, triple and even quadruple damage with your bare hands. It's one of the better, more reliable weapons in the game at higher levels of skill. I was trying to mimic the same in Wizardry 7, which I really enjoyed discovering this was another faculty that could be developed in combat. There were weapons you could find in the game that did even more damage but the one assassin ninja in the party could be counted on at all times to do consistently high damage fighting with open hands.

Does that mean that the most important aspect for a ninjitsu character is his race? since that determine his base unarmed damage?

 

[Lady_Error]

Does anyone have a list of the base unarmed damage of each race? It would make sense if the clawy types do more damage, but I don't think anyone figured that out yet.

 

[Gunnar]

So you probably want to run one backstabber character in a party that can do high damage for when fighting enemies resistant to lethal blow, and he should either use lethal blow and daggers or ninjitsu and hand to hand. Dagger build would be overall more useful but ninjitsu build does a better job doing raw damage and fulfilling its role.

I checked it out and yeah that appears to be so.

So why use hand to hand with ninjitsu instead of just a weapon skill?

As your skill improves you will begin doing double, triple and even quadruple damage with your bare hands. It's one of the better, more reliable weapons in the game at higher levels of skill. I was trying to mimic the same in Wizardry 7, which I really enjoyed discovering this was another faculty that could be developed in combat. There were weapons you could find in the game that did even more damage but the one assassin ninja in the party could be counted on at all times to do consistently high damage fighting with open hands.

Does that mean that the most important aspect for a ninjitsu character is his race? since that determine his base unarmed damage?

There are hand to hand weapons, checked the wiki and we have (6D6) and (3D8).

Does anyone have a list of the base unarmed damage of each race? It would make sense if the clawy types do more damage, but I don't think anyone figured that out yet.

Regular Punch - 1D6
Leonar - 2D4
Drake - 3D4
Saurian - 3D4
Giant - 3D4

That's all I got right now. The Giant is right up there with the heavy hitters.

 

[Lady_Error]

Regular Punch - 1D6
Leonar - 2D4
Drake - 3D4
Saurian - 3D4
Giant - 3D4

I'm pretty sure the Naga and Wolfin have 3D4 or at least 2D4 as well. The Rhattu might be another one with higher damage.

 

[Dorateen]

The Rhattu might be another one with higher damage.

I don't think Rhattu inflict that much damage, but they do cause disease on a successful hit. Funniest thing for me, was seeing our party's rat sage dressed in robes and trying to act all intellectual, suddenly attack and gnaw on some enemy like a rabid animal.

 

[Gunnar]

Here's a more complete list:

Drake: Claw-3d4, Lash Tail-3d4
Giant: Stomp-3d4, Smash-3d4
Saurian: Bite-3d4, Claw-3d4

Naga: Bite-2d6, Lash Coil-2d6

Leonar: Bite-2d4, Claw-2d4
Wolfin: Bite-2d4, Claw-2d4

Rhattu: Claw-1d6, Bite-2d4

Regular: Punch-1d6, Kick-1d6

 

[Brozef]

The Rhattu might be another one with higher damage.

I don't think Rhattu inflict that much damage, but they do cause disease on a successful hit. Funniest thing for me, was seeing our party's rat sage dressed in robes and trying to act all intellectual, suddenly attack and gnaw on some enemy like a rabid animal.

A true Sage of the Diogenes school.