Grimoire Thread

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

and rhattu pirate should need 80. instead it's supposed to only require 48. why??? that's a huge difference.
and is this only at start or when multiclassing too?
there's no logic to this shit and no explanation either.

Certain races have a natural advantage for certain professions. This is reflected in the multiplier for that class. The Rhattu make pirates much easier than others.

Now remember, if the multiplier increases the bonus points available and then deducts them then technically bonus remaining is never a negative number so in many cases bonus = 0 when the multiplier is taken advantage of.

 

[Oberon]

How many times in a playthrough do you typically change classes?

 

[Lady Error]

How many times in a playthrough do you typically change classes?

There is no typical. You can skip class changes completely, or you can change the same character's class up to 12 times (only a few races qualify for that though).

 

[Ludwig von Eisenthal]

I've changed all my characters at least 6-8 times if I remember correctly. My goal was to get two Jesters in my party and that was achievable pretty well, with a bit of planning ahead. You don't know anything of Grimoire if you don't experience these raving and massmurdering lunatics in action. They are glorious.

 

[Reapa]

and rhattu pirate should need 80. instead it's supposed to only require 48. why??? that's a huge difference.
and is this only at start or when multiclassing too?
there's no logic to this shit and no explanation either.

Certain races have a natural advantage for certain professions. This is reflected in the multiplier for that class. The Rhattu make pirates much easier than others.

Now remember, if the multiplier increases the bonus points available and then deducts them then technically bonus remaining is never a negative number so in many cases bonus = 0 when the multiplier is taken advantage of.

rolled naga metalsmith with 41, should have gotten 16 bonus points to spend after deduction. didn't get shit. <-- there is no multiplier involved, still 16 bonus points wasted after deduction. same thing happened to other races trying metalsmith, except for durandil.

and look again at the pictures if you can't follow what i'm saying. in the picture case shit got deducted, bonus points left were shown as 30, and then at game start only 20 were left. you can see barrower was chosen, thaumaturge was chosen, bonus points left to spend were 30. at spending they got reduced to 20 attribute points.

and this is from the wiki, assuming it's copied from the manual:
What the Multiplier Bonus means:

• It gives you a multiplier bonus or penalty to the amount of skill points you get on each levelup
• It gives you a multiplier bonus or penalty to the natural resistances of that race (this is kept even after changing class!)
• When creating a character, it gives you a multiplier bonus or penalty to the unused portion of the points you roll (these can be put into extra HP, attribute points or skill points)

i scratched penalty because i didn't test sub par combinations. it says you get a bonus to the unspent (undeducted) bonusroll points. well, if it takes them back you don't really get a bonus.

 

[Lady Error]

• When creating a character, it gives you a multiplier bonus or penalty to the unused portion of the points you roll (these can be put into extra HP, attribute points or skill points)

i scratched penalty because i didn't test sub par combinations. it says you get a bonus to the unspent (undeducted) bonusroll points. well, if it takes them back you don't really get a bonus.

Maybe that part of the wiki is wrong. It was written long before the manual came out.

You could also, you know, check the actual manual.

 

[Cael]

• When creating a character, it gives you a multiplier bonus or penalty to the unused portion of the points you roll (these can be put into extra HP, attribute points or skill points)

i scratched penalty because i didn't test sub par combinations. it says you get a bonus to the unspent (undeducted) bonusroll points. well, if it takes them back you don't really get a bonus.

Maybe that part of the wiki is wrong. It was written long before the manual came out.

You could also, you know, check the actual manual.

Real men don't read manuals!!!!

Spoiler

They just bitch on the Internet instead.

 

[Reapa]

from the manual:
"If you choose attributes, the bonus points will be available as points that can be custom added to existing attributes in the character review screen after the game has started. You will be able to add these points to any attribute other than destiny."
both wrong. after the game tells you to chose how to spend them, some still get subtracted. and you can spend them on destiny points afterwards and even chose hom many of them instead of dumping them all at once.

 

[PhantasmaNL]

The character creation module in Grimoire doubles as a git-gud filter.
Only the most prestigious RPG connaisseurs will eventually succeed in creating a viable party of Heroes.

 

[Oberon]

Planned party progression;

Vamphyr
Warrior -> Berserker -> Assassin

Vamphyr
Warrior -> Berserker -> Assassin -> Pirate

Vamphyr
Assassin -> Thief -> Bard -> Sage -> Thaum -> Necromancer

Vamphyr
Assassin -> Thief -> Bard -> Jester

Vamphyr
Thief -> Bard -> Jester

Vamphyr
Necromancer -> Sage

Drow
Wizard -> Thaum -> Necromancer

NPC SLOT
????????

 

[Butter]

Planned party progression;

Vamphyr
Warrior -> Berserker -> Assassin

Vamphyr
Warrior -> Berserker -> Assassin -> Pirate

Vamphyr
Assassin -> Thief -> Bard -> Sage -> Thaum -> Necromancer

Vamphyr
Assassin -> Thief -> Bard -> Jester

Vamphyr
Thief -> Bard -> Jester

Vamphyr
Necromancer -> Sage

Drow
Wizard -> Thaum -> Necromancer

NPC SLOT
????????

Getting to Jester with 2-3 class changes is basically impossible. It requires too many attribute points. You also lose a ton of attribute points when you change from Assassin to Thief. Normally the reason to do that change is because you've exhausted all the other classes and it's required in order to keep class changing, and you plan several further changes to make up the lost points.

A more realistic approach to Jester:

Thaumaturge -> Wizard -> Sage -> Cleric -> Bard -> Jester, or alternatively:
Thaumaturge -> Wizard -> Sage -> Cleric -> Templar -> Warrior -> Berserker -> Ranger -> Thief -> Bard -> Jester

The second path loses quite a few points going from Templar to Warrior, but getting 5 extra class changes makes up for it.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

from the manual:
"If you choose attributes, the bonus points will be available as points that can be custom added to existing attributes in the character review screen after the game has started. You will be able to add these points to any attribute other than destiny."
both wrong. after the game tells you to chose how to spend them, some still get subtracted. and you can spend them on destiny points afterwards and even chose hom many of them instead of dumping them all at once.

If you choose a class that does not require multiplier bonus, your bonus points will be equal to original bonus - attribute points needed to make that class. If you choose a class with multiplier advantage, you still need to deduct that same amount of points * multiplier from bonus for that character.

Destiny was not modifiable in 1.0, as of 2.0 you are allowed to add points there. That can be a lot of fun to make some characters (even weak ones) nearly impossible to kill for a short while after starting.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

I've changed all my characters at least 6-8 times if I remember correctly. My goal was to get two Jesters in my party and that was achievable pretty well, with a bit of planning ahead. You don't know anything of Grimoire if you don't experience these raving and massmurdering lunatics in action. They are glorious.

I wanted the Jesters to be a rare and decisive class that is infrequently seen and very hard to attain. I added Chuckles so that even people who went the whole game without ever making it to that class could still experience having them as a party member. My regret is I ran out of integers at 1024 and could not add more Jester-specific items that could only be equipped and used by them. I especially miss having Jester specific armor with colorful item pics and descriptions like you would see in Mardi Gras or a Harlequin festival etc. just ran out of item slots to create them in.

The Jester class was also part of adding more elements to the game like those common in anime and weird fantasy. I would like to do an RPG some day with nothing but clowns and harlequins as characters. I got some design documents here from 1996 that went into great detail about the Jester class with a ton of features I was never able to add.

 

[Cael]

I've changed all my characters at least 6-8 times if I remember correctly. My goal was to get two Jesters in my party and that was achievable pretty well, with a bit of planning ahead. You don't know anything of Grimoire if you don't experience these raving and massmurdering lunatics in action. They are glorious.

I wanted the Jesters to be a rare and decisive class that is infrequently seen and very hard to attain. I added Chuckles so that even people who went the whole game without ever making it to that class could still experience having them as a party member. My regret is I ran out of integers at 1024 and could not add more Jester-specific items that could only be equipped and used by them. I especially miss having Jester specific armor with colorful item pics and descriptions like you would see in Mardi Gras or a Harlequin festival etc. just ran out of item slots to create them in.

The Jester class was also part of adding more elements to the game like those common in anime and weird fantasy. I would like to do an RPG some day with nothing but clowns and harlequins as characters. I got some design documents here from 1996 that went into great detail about the Jester class with a ton of features I was never able to add.

Chuckles ran into a spectacular death in Ultima7.

 

[Reapa]

Hello Again,

here's an error in the wiki:

NEW: GET THROUGH 14 OUT OF 15 CLASSES AND END ON A JESTER

You can definitely get through 14 classes and still leave Jester for last. I arranged these, looking at stat minimums, to try and minimize the extra points needed to spend. In no case will you have to spend more bonus points to class change than you can get from random (non > save > scummed) level ups in the new class. This is what I used for Diamond Jack:

(Barrower) Thau > Wiz > Necro > Sage > Cleric > Templar > Warrior > Bers > Ranger > Pirate > Assassin > Thief > Bard > Jester

Ranger to Pirate is more costly but actually gets you three classes:

Problem is rangers can't be pirates. nor can pirates be rangers. so, yeah...

Outgoing class changes allowed:
Ranger: Warrior, Thief, Assassin
Pirate: Thief, Berseker, Assassin

this is what i used for diamond jack??? what diamond jack? how can you pretend this is tested and works?

 

[Reapa]

I've changed all my characters at least 6-8 times if I remember correctly. My goal was to get two Jesters in my party and that was achievable pretty well, with a bit of planning ahead. You don't know anything of Grimoire if you don't experience these raving and massmurdering lunatics in action. They are glorious.

I wanted the Jesters to be a rare and decisive class that is infrequently seen and very hard to attain. I added Chuckles so that even people who went the whole game without ever making it to that class could still experience having them as a party member. My regret is I ran out of integers at 1024 and could not add more Jester-specific items that could only be equipped and used by them. I especially miss having Jester specific armor with colorful item pics and descriptions like you would see in Mardi Gras or a Harlequin festival etc. just ran out of item slots to create them in.

The Jester class was also part of adding more elements to the game like those common in anime and weird fantasy. I would like to do an RPG some day with nothing but clowns and harlequins as characters. I got some design documents here from 1996 that went into great detail about the Jester class with a ton of features I was never able to add.

maybe remove some of the stupid items in the game like the parchment that tells you where to burry Mistral and doesn't disapear after reading. if you haven't figuered out where his bones need to get burried without the parchment, maybe you don't deserve to continue playing. this item could be easily replaced by just a journal entry.

 

[Lady Error]

(Barrower) Thau > Wiz > Necro > Sage > Cleric > Templar > Warrior > Bers > Ranger > Pirate > Assassin > Thief > Bard > Jester

Yeah, Berserker and Ranger need to be switched.

 

[Dorateen]

Rangers can transition to Pirates. I had one in our party.

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Rangers can transition to Pirates. I had one in our party.

That's a particularly good upgrade path for a ranger. That was kind of how I thought of Pirates, as super elite ranger class. With cutlasses and puffy shirts.

It's very cool to reach tenth level and then begin a new career as a pirate. That was the original Grimoire. As a result of user feedback the class changing was reduced drastically in levels and it turned out better than anything I could have thought of, with class changing becoming almost unique for a blobber to shift between professions. When I was testing 2.0 I thought it was really fun to switch professions and continue with new skills and abilities after only three or four level-ups.

 

[Reapa]

so these retarded npcs like Argosyre attack me, i kill them and then everyone is angry with me... none can be reasoned with even at 100 diplomacy. good AI bro

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I got some design documents here from 1996 that went into great detail about the Jester class with a ton of features I was never able to add.

Any chance we could read some of these ideas?

takes out tracing paper

 

[Lady Error]

so these retarded npcs like Argosyre attack me, i kill them and then everyone is angry with me... none can be reasoned with even at 100 diplomacy. good AI bro

I guess even the AI knows you're an asshole.


If you search for his name, you will find that this particular instance has been discussed and explained before.

 

[Reapa]

so these retarded npcs like Argosyre attack me, i kill them and then everyone is angry with me... none can be reasoned with even at 100 diplomacy. good AI bro

I guess even the AI knows you're an asshole.


If you search for his name, you will find that this particular instance has been discussed and explained before.

can't seem to find the discussion. i searched for argosyre.
and it's not just argosyre. ahrimen or whatever his name was also wanted the tablet and attacked me for not giving it to him. then a merchant was furious because i killed him and attacked me.
i was able to bribe the dwarf merchant in crowl into liking me again, but if there is no other way of explainig to him that i was attacked and argosyre made human sacrifices to some demon, the whole interaction with npcs is kinda poor.
and when a merchant is furious you can't even try to talk to him without negotiatig first. and negotiation looks kinda retared to me. charm and 100 diplomacy sometimes making the npc just a little less furious and most of the time more.
also raghilda did nothing after me having found her sister sacrificed to a demon. like it was no big deal.

 

[Lady Error]

can't seem to find the discussion. i searched for argosyre.

If you search for it not just in this thread, you will find:

I'm approaching the semi-"point of no return" in Crowl, since the only area I have left in the beginning of the game is Samhain. Question:

Spoiler

If I choose to kill Argosyre (yes I spoiled it, though it was obvious he was a sketchy dude anyway), I understand the whole town basically turns on me except the innkeeper whose asks you to save her sister--is it possible to restore relations back to friendly/neutral with the remaining townspeople? Do they restore on their own or do I have to scatter gold coins amongst the peasantry?

Give it some time and the animosity will fade - except for a few specially marked NPCs who never forgive.

Did Cleve himself write something about this?

This is what Cleve had to say on the matter

Spoiler

Do you think it is pretentious to say that Village of Crowl is based on real life? People always seem to have some horrible compromise they are willing to accept but it is forbidden to talk about because if they thought about it some more they'd realize they should not accept it. How much honest talk do you think the public could handle about the drones they pay for in the middle east floating around over remote areas killing unarmed women and children all day? Is it really any worse than feeding the occasional tourist to a demon to keep him belowground like they do in Crowl? I actually thought that the Village of Crowl is the least fantastic part of Grimoire for this reason. Technically, the only troublemakers in Crowl are the Heralds, who interfere with the natural order of things there.

The Vanguard is there to locate the "Owl Artifact" and they simply try to fit in with the locals. If the locals have had this custom of placating the demon for centuries then they do not think it is their business to interfere as long as the locals cooperate with them. If they cared about the Village they would probably start by taking the fire breathing bugs and singing murder hobos off the streets.

GandGolf

I read your post expressing concern about the negative reception that happens in Crowl at a certain point.

It's not that big a deal in terms of anything that needs to be changed. We're talking about a handful of characters, and at least one who stays friendly. The NPC interactions have a built in mechanic to negotiate, bribe and talk down anyone from a hostile disposition. Furthermore, by the time players reach this point, you will be almost finished with Crowl anyway. Of course, you can always return to Crowl, Grimoire being an open world and all. They say time has a way of healing emotional wounds.

As far as this in context of the story:

Spoiler

While Argosyre was a charlatan, and evil priest who sucked the life out of Crowl, he pretended to be a caretaker. The villagers are ignorant of the conspiracy with the Horror. So when they first learn about his death, naturally the NPCs are upset. Again, it's nothing that can't be remedied in game.

No, there should be an ability to tell everybody what he'd told me! I can't even tell the inn owner about his role in the disappearance of her sister.
They all act like I slaughtered a peaceful NPC, not defended myself from a raving lunatic. And I can't even explain myself!

You can. See that "negotiate" button and "diplomacy" skill? That's how you explain yourself.

Raghilda didn't care about Argosyre btw, and Trimestes was only mildly in the red. Only Gorlo, Krone and Smithers are really mad, and Gorlo can simply be bribed into neutrality. The other two, however, are still mad and can't be negotiated below red-5 despite already having green-10 from bribing. Probably needs better diplomacy skill.

 

[Reapa]

can't seem to find the discussion. i searched for argosyre.

If you search for it not just in this thread, you will find:

I'm approaching the semi-"point of no return" in Crowl, since the only area I have left in the beginning of the game is Samhain. Question:

Spoiler

If I choose to kill Argosyre (yes I spoiled it, though it was obvious he was a sketchy dude anyway), I understand the whole town basically turns on me except the innkeeper whose asks you to save her sister--is it possible to restore relations back to friendly/neutral with the remaining townspeople? Do they restore on their own or do I have to scatter gold coins amongst the peasantry?

Give it some time and the animosity will fade - except for a few specially marked NPCs who never forgive.

Did Cleve himself write something about this?

This is what Cleve had to say on the matter

Spoiler

Do you think it is pretentious to say that Village of Crowl is based on real life? People always seem to have some horrible compromise they are willing to accept but it is forbidden to talk about because if they thought about it some more they'd realize they should not accept it. How much honest talk do you think the public could handle about the drones they pay for in the middle east floating around over remote areas killing unarmed women and children all day? Is it really any worse than feeding the occasional tourist to a demon to keep him belowground like they do in Crowl? I actually thought that the Village of Crowl is the least fantastic part of Grimoire for this reason. Technically, the only troublemakers in Crowl are the Heralds, who interfere with the natural order of things there.

The Vanguard is there to locate the "Owl Artifact" and they simply try to fit in with the locals. If the locals have had this custom of placating the demon for centuries then they do not think it is their business to interfere as long as the locals cooperate with them. If they cared about the Village they would probably start by taking the fire breathing bugs and singing murder hobos off the streets.

GandGolf

I read your post expressing concern about the negative reception that happens in Crowl at a certain point.

It's not that big a deal in terms of anything that needs to be changed. We're talking about a handful of characters, and at least one who stays friendly. The NPC interactions have a built in mechanic to negotiate, bribe and talk down anyone from a hostile disposition. Furthermore, by the time players reach this point, you will be almost finished with Crowl anyway. Of course, you can always return to Crowl, Grimoire being an open world and all. They say time has a way of healing emotional wounds.

As far as this in context of the story:

Spoiler

While Argosyre was a charlatan, and evil priest who sucked the life out of Crowl, he pretended to be a caretaker. The villagers are ignorant of the conspiracy with the Horror. So when they first learn about his death, naturally the NPCs are upset. Again, it's nothing that can't be remedied in game.

No, there should be an ability to tell everybody what he'd told me! I can't even tell the inn owner about his role in the disappearance of her sister.
They all act like I slaughtered a peaceful NPC, not defended myself from a raving lunatic. And I can't even explain myself!

You can. See that "negotiate" button and "diplomacy" skill? That's how you explain yourself.

Raghilda didn't care about Argosyre btw, and Trimestes was only mildly in the red. Only Gorlo, Krone and Smithers are really mad, and Gorlo can simply be bribed into neutrality. The other two, however, are still mad and can't be negotiated below red-5 despite already having green-10 from bribing. Probably needs better diplomacy skill.

ok, so they're all in on it, even raghilda...
though mistral only warned me about the "monastery/church" leader.
maybe mindread should be a little more fleshed out. it's not really mind reading if you only get fed what people are willing to talk about and not what you could ask them to talk about even with the risk of angering them. even just a line about the "murder/sacrifice" that gets answered with "i don't believe you" would do a good enough job of explaining what is really happening.
diplomacy is still brocken as it does basically nothing. you can bribe without it.