Hearts of Iron IV - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Another major thing is that they need to spread out those resources a lot more evenly or minors will be 100% useless.

 

[Average Manatee]

Ehh, consolidating resources into raw materials sounds like a really bad idea. Simulating the Axis lack of certain (hard to find) materials was a rather important part of HoI3. With a generalized resource model there is essentially no reason not to attack everyone and steal their resource deposits.

They aren't really being consolidated though, they are being split into strategic resources. There should be a strategic resource for every hard to find material that was necessary for war production so the game will still simulate certain countries lacking certain resources. Seeking access to(or denying an enemy access to) those resources should still be a factor in which targets you prioritize.

It would be overkill if you had separate strategic resources that were necessary for production on top of 3 different raw materials. With the introduction of Strategic resources there isn't really much of a need to have to track energy, metal, and rare materials separately. Especially since strategic resources would already be representing the rare materials resource and portions of the metal resource. They would be an unnecessary complication that doesn't really add much to the gameplay that the strategic resources aren't already adding.

The thing that concerns me is not being able to stockpile strategic resources. While I can understand how it can simplify gameplay and be more intuitive, it takes away some of the pre-war gameplay of HOI3(Stockpiling resources you know you will need for the war when your industry gets a massive boost) and the wartime consideration of how long your stockpiles will last.

If everything is just raw material and it's not possible to starve Germany or Japan of resources than we're really deviating from history. How are you going to starve Germany of "Raw Material"? And who decides how much "Raw Material" a country should get in the first place?

Another major thing is that they need to spread out those resources a lot more evenly or minors will be 100% useless.

Something tells me Finland isn't going to do well by this...

 

[Renegen]

You will definitively have starving out. If you only have enough steel to make 500 tanks per year, you can only make 500 tanks per year.

 

[Average Manatee]

We must not have the same understanding of the dev diary. As I understand it you will be able to starve countries of resources just like it worked in HOI3. Raw materials are still stockpiled and consumed by IC when they are used. Just instead of IC consuming 2 Energy, 1 metal, and .5 rare resources they will just consume x raw materials(Most likely 1 raw material for ease of use). If a country doesn't have enough raw materials they will not be able to use the IC just like it works in HOI3.

With 3 resources in HoI3 the world produced enough of all 3 to keep all nations running at full capacity, but doing so required trades from one section to another. These trades were broken in war time and the Axis ran at a heavy deficit in metal and rares.

In HoI4, if there is only 1 resource, what is the trade deal going to be? Either Germany runs at a raw material surplus and doesn't need to trade, or Germany runs at a deficit and can't trade, because there is no other resource that they run a surplus in to trade.

Presumably by bombing or capturing the provinces that produce raw material or attacking naval convoys of that are carrying them. Same way it works in HOI3.

That's not the way it works in HoI3, and it's not the way it worked in real life. The Axis was starving of resources just to run their war machine. Taking Axis land is basically impossible for the Allies, and convoys aren't made between same-continent sources (not that attacking convoys reduced resource transportation anyway, it just killed convoys). The whole game of the Axis is to conquer the world before their economy runs out of steam of its own accord.

You will definitively have starving out. If you only have enough steel to make 500 tanks per year, you can only make 500 tanks per year.

Strategic resources can't be exhausted like that though. The only way to lower strategic resources will be to invade europe and capture them.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

There's a lot of anal agony about the new resource/industry system which I don't get.

For once, individual resources matter as does IC spamming, not to mention delicious hardware storrage and transfer. Coupled with the individual chassis system of the last dev diary, this is shaping up to be superior to all previous HOIs economy-wise.

I am now waiting for the OOB/battle system and diplomacy. Mostly diplomacy.

 

[Reject_666_6]

Is it just me or did people misread the the way resource system works?

Look at this screenshot posted earlier:

Notice how there are 6 types of raw materials strategic resources there. I can't say for sure what they are, but my guess would be (clockwise) oil, aluminium, rubber, unobtainium, steel and drill bits. Edit: I continued this idea in next post more clearly.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

No, they clearly explained it. Raw materials powers industry.

Strategic resources build up in a pool and are used to manufacture military hardware/infrastracture. Steel into tanks, etc.

 

[Reject_666_6]

Strategic Resources are not accumulated in pools.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

My bad, I was thinking of rares

 

[Reject_666_6]

Yes I see what you mean, I was thinking of strategic resources instead of raw materials too.

However, I still think the way you guys are looking at the system is wrong. Strategic resources look like they serve the same function as the 4 resources of HoI3, namely to constrain your production somehow if you are short one type or more, only this time there's the added benefit of being able to adapt your production to due without what you're lacking. Again pointing to that screenshot, if you for example as Germany are starved of rubber, you won't be able to build as many planes. However, if you decide to dedicate your entire production to things that don't need rubber, then you would still be operating at your max Industrial Capacity, provided you have enough Steel and Oil and shit to produce it. It seems like a logical improvement over the old system in every way.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

For one, they constrain your production in certain areas, not in it's entirety. Miss rares in previous HOIs, you're fucked. Miss energy, you're fucked. Miss iron, surprise, fucked again.

There seem to be more resources this time around and the image only shows 3 unit types and their resource requirements.

Now that dedicated civilian industry comes into play, running out of rares to sustain your general IC might cause dissent in some way. And there's also the possibility that if you overfocus on heavy/military industry and neglect consumer industry like the Soviets did you will have to find other methods of supressing your population. (now I'm drifting off but there might be at least the possibility of modding that in)

The whole IC-resource-economy system seems much, much better overall.

 

[Reject_666_6]

That's what I said, so we are in agreement bro. Looking back on the last page, I realised that the only one I was really disagreeing with was Manatee, and it seems all my points were already addressed by darkpatriot anyway so it's all good.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

A question remains tho how will the rare materials be distributed worldwide. A good example of something HoI3 completely overlooked is that Finland provided overall ~80% of the nickel Germany used between 1940 and 1944. Same thing with Swedish iron ore being a huge chunk of German steel production (though Sweden has had more than +100 surplus of Metal as the sole highly notable minor with a resource surplus in HoI games).

Improving the importance of trade and convoys would be excellent.

 

[Average Manatee]

That's what I said, so we are in agreement bro. Looking back on the last page, I realised that the only one I was really disagreeing with was Manatee, and it seems all my points were already addressed by darkpatriot anyway so it's all good.

My only fear with the strategic resources (perhaps unfounded, but Paradox has a habit of having really good ideas that then go on to be poorly implemented) is that it will railroad the player into always producing x tanks, y aircraft, and z ships at all times due to strategic resource limitations. Which entirely takes away from the variety of HoI3 when you could go tank-focused, air-focused, whatever-focused.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I'm more worried that they're just going to pack majority of the surplus resources within Germany+Austria+Czech, Soviet Union and USA like they have a bad habit of doing.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

I've reached a point where all I ask for is a very moddable game with a couple of tools to make the boring tasks such as minister/leader creation easier.

I don't think I even played HOI3 fully vanilla ever.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Surprising nobody ever wrote a fanmade tool for modifying and generating minister and leader files. My assfeels say it shouldn't be THAT hard to make one.

 

[Average Manatee]

I'm more worried that they're just going to pack majority of the surplus resources within Germany+Austria+Czech, Soviet Union and USA like they have a bad habit of doing.

That's almost a certainty, otherwise Germany would be invading Finland to annex their valuable strategic resources. As it stands in WW2 Germany has their pick of conquering anything in Europe that isn't the British Isles. Make any of those Europeans too valuable and it will happen.

Though I expect strategic resources could make the Japanese campaign a lot more interesting, mucking about Oceania/China/Siberia. Assuming that the game is balanced to make China not a pushover and the rest of Asia not a complete joke to occupy, which HoI3 didn't.

 

[Malakal]

If they aimed for a better supply system then perhaps invading everything as Germany wouldnt be so viable anymore. Because I cant really imagine Germnay invading Finland IRL. At least not over the Baltic Sea.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

At least having a passable model of international resource trade would make the British Navy serve a real purpose instead of just faffing about uselessly around the German coastline because the only country that can actually provide imports is Soviet Union (where as historically Germany, as referenced already, brought in half its iron ore needs from Sweden and 80% of its nickel from Finland). Same goes for U-Boats having little use. National Unity was an attempt at doing SOMETHING about the whole thing, but let's face it ultimately NU only sufferered real damage from nukes, events and extended strategic bombing.

And actually I'd say the general "everyone in Axis but Germany is useless" problem in HoI goes down to how the old unit construction and tech systems worked. The new game has great potential of changing that, with Germany really being able to provide all sorts of equipment to its allies (as historically the highest scoring non-German ace was Eino Ilmari Juutilainen with ~60% of his aerial kills with a Messerschmitt Bf 109, and the other example being the great successes of StuGIII and Panzerfaust in Finnish use). This sort of stuff is why the new production and resource model are at least in hype the most promising aspects of HoI4.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

Will the starting date allows to wage the winter war as Finland?

Did Finland had a fighting chance in the previous games? Is it reasonably possible to get a 10/1 historical Kill/Death ratio?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

So far HoI3 did the best job at presenting Winter War due to the addition of Front Width and impassable terrain preventing USSR from just piling some 30 divisions in each border province.

 

[Average Manatee]

Seaborne supply was always a joke in HoI3. As long as the USA has 1k convoys in reserve (they always do) the USA can supply god damned Leningrad better than they can San Fransisco (since Naval supply is always instant 100%, land supply has months of lag, supply tax and can be intercepted). And Germany can put a million subs hunting the convoys, supplies still get through and USA never runs out of convoys.

Could be really interesting if, say, USA sends 100 airplanes to the UK and German subs intercept, say, 20% of them.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yea, it'd be good if supply convoys weren't an abstract "resource", but a physical unit that can be automated for AI control (obviously players should be able to customize the routes so if they are that scared of the U-boats they can send ships under goddamn Australia or something and lose valuable time and effort to keep a 100% uptime for the transit) where X number of ships haul Y number of stuff. For one it'd mean submarines and airplanes can cause real loss of resource trade and supplies, and it makes the Undeclared War a thing as well. In the current simply model convoy warfare is useless since all it does is tie down a little IC to spam Convoys to negate attrition, if you even need convoys.

Similarly the supply model should divide up the main supply nodes between major industrial centres (say, 1 per a certain number of provinces) so there's multiple supply stations in the Kwa for example (ie, Noo Yawk and LA are the main coastal supply nodes, with Detroit as an inland node example). Special settings could also be very handy, ie to represent things like the critical importance of the Moscow railway hub for Soviet logistical structure.

Heck that'd be enough material to center an entire expansion DLC around!

 

[Raghar]

Actually shouldn't these monthly loses mean supplies that wasn't delivered?
U' = U - U*killed/transmitted.