Hearts of Iron IV - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

[Average Manatee]

The interesting bits from a game like this is to also try and do silly stuff though, especially for long term replayability.

This much should be obvious, otherwise only playable nations would be France, Germany, Italy, USA, UK, Soviet Union and Japan. Maybe China, depending on how well its represented.

Honestly China is not "playable" now. At least not fun playable. Infantry is completely useless unsupported and that's all China has for the first year of war, because apparently researching things like Artillery is something you have to do in 1936.

Eventually you can do something but for a long time vs. Japan the only possible Chinese strategy is to have more men than the Japs have bullets and just rotate divisions in and out as bullet sponges. Give up trying to attack with a SA of around 30, it's WW1-levels of spending 100k troops and several months to advance one province.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

if japs declare war in '38-39 instead of '37-38 you've no problem

 

[mutonizer]

French historical ironman Little Entente failed attempt #12...

I can somewhat survive a bit more now if I don't do much but can't "beat" Germany or Italy. Eventually they just roll over with crazy planning and armies as I can't really keep up. If I attack Italy, my German front is too weak and collapses after BENELUX fails (forts are useless against tons of bomber and planning) and if I attack Germany, Italy cleans up his Eastern front and pushes through Nice like butter eventually.

Fucking Allies don't really do anything for years either.


Doesn't help that the battleplan AI is a bit fucked sometimes, which forces me to micro, which I don't want to do...

 

[Malakal]

The interesting bits from a game like this is to also try and do silly stuff though, especially for long term replayability.

This much should be obvious, otherwise only playable nations would be France, Germany, Italy, USA, UK, Soviet Union and Japan. Maybe China, depending on how well its represented.

Honestly China is not "playable" now. At least not fun playable. Infantry is completely useless unsupported and that's all China has for the first year of war, because apparently researching things like Artillery is something you have to do in 1936.

Eventually you can do something but for a long time vs. Japan the only possible Chinese strategy is to have more men than the Japs have bullets and just rotate divisions in and out as bullet sponges. Give up trying to attack with a SA of around 30, it's WW1-levels of spending 100k troops and several months to advance one province.

This is what I meant, well represented China should NOT be playable due to lack of organization, industry, technology and stability.

 

[mutonizer]

OR
well represented China should be playable, then you most likely get fucked due to lack of organization, industry, technology and stability, especially on historical setting.

BUT
If going non historical, then maybe Japan leaves you the fuck alone long enough for China to actually do something before 1949...


And that's my HoI4 game right here in the long run

 

[Grinolf]

the thing about ethiopia is that they are set against an superior opponent from the start. Human players win primarly due to better preparation/hindsight, all they have left with ethiopia is trying to outmanoeuvre the AI... with less units.

So the simplest solution in stopping the player from doing "silly" stuff is to remove the 1936 start.

No, I thing players players having about equal advantage over AI in both tactic and strategy. And tactical part is more important in HOI, unlike other Paradox series where strategy is having main role, because of it's focus on warfare. But of course if you leave players "only" with tactical advantage and then further diminish it by given AI handicap in terms of superior starting position, then yes, players would have way harder time than they have now.

Ethiopia case wasn't that big of the deal in HOI3, because of how easy it was to starve italians to death. With revamped supply system, which even AI could use, and the fact that, despite all his faults, he at least capable of guarding his ports, make this start way harder than in HOI3. Still AI in it's current form makes sense only about half the time even in the most basic situations like trying to surround the enemies and trying to prevent himself from being surrounded, which means that he know how to do the right things, but due to bugs or mistakes in code failing to perceive some situations where he should do them. And there is annoying thing with AI ruining his divisions organisation near frontline because of SR. Until these things are fixed I wouldn't consider Ethiopia as something completely impossible.

 

[Average Manatee]

This is what I meant, well represented China should NOT be playable due to lack of organization, industry, technology and stability.

China had a good number of elite German-trained divisions that were supplied and commanded to at least the same standard as the average Japanese divisions. What happened was that China didn't go on to spread the knowledge gained to the rest of the army, and foolishly ordered all of their best divisions to make a final stand at Shanghai early in the war. The recall of German military advisors from China was actually a very important thing for Japan.

Unfortunately HoI4 doesn't really have "elite" units. It just has constantly increasing production and an overall constant increase in the amount of power your divisions have. The supposed "elite" designation that prioritizes for upgrades is almost meaningless in its actual effect. The worst way this shows up is in the lack of fuel for navy, where Japan had a bit of a soft cap to the amount of ships they could have in HoI3 yet in HoI4 its 5 carriers in 1938, 10 carriers in 1940, 20 carriers in 1942, etc.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Elite status for divisions might be a fairly good idea for giving minors more bang for their buck if the quantity of elite units was not relative to size but absolute as a value.

 

[Thane Solus]

i doubt that fuel, ammo and industry will ever be fixed/introduced.

 

[thesheeep]

i doubt that fuel, ammo and industry will ever be fixed/introduced.

On a game with that scale?
Highly unlikely, if you ask me.

At least the fuel and ammo part.

They have to keep some balance here between Excel and Minesweeper.

 

[Ulminati]

Fuel and ammo are probably abstracted into the % of equipment that's consumed while fightan and training as well as having to stay in range of supply bases.

 

[rezaf]

The interesting bits from a game like this is to also try and do silly stuff though, especially for long term replayability.

This much should be obvious, otherwise only playable nations would be France, Germany, Italy, USA, UK, Soviet Union and Japan. Maybe China, depending on how well its represented.

Being able to achieve much with any minor in a game taking place in the WW2 timeframe is a bit like being able to pick any of the people from the audience in the next FIFA game and win out against the pros.
I for one thing it's completely ridiculous how much you can achieve with minors in this game.

i doubt that fuel, ammo and industry will ever be fixed/introduced.

Highly unlikely, if you ask me.

At least the fuel and ammo part.

They have to keep some balance here between Excel and Minesweeper.

Hmm. I could swear HoI 1 - played on exactly the same scale - had fuel and ammo (or supplies).

Guess that's why this thread is tagged with "Decline"...

 

[Average Manatee]

Minors are really silly. You start with low manpower, but as soon as you conquer anything you get the full (non-core) manpower from it. Like, if your laws let you take 30% of your core and 1.5% of your non-core, that still means as soon as you conquer a minor you'll get 6-digit manpower and conquering a major gets you 7-digit manpower. Instantly.

 

[XenomorphII]

Pretty sure you get a tiny fraction of manpower from non-core territory (ie conquered land without a claim). Because I just dropped the Soviets as Poland, and I get less than half a percent of all the manpower they had.

I like this, in spite of its flaws, which seem to mostly be in the actual warfare area. AI cannot make good divisions to save its life.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, I said you get a tiny fraction. But if you just bump up your conscription laws to max (giving around a 30% conscription rate), suddenly those non-core provinces are able to give you a decent ~1% of their population as manpower. But you get it all at once, so if you annex, say, Belgium and Netherlands as Luxembourg, you'll instantly get around 600k manpower or so, which is more than enough to annex France next year and then you're looking at millions of manpower and can take on Germany. Actual gameplay experience.

 

[Ulminati]

ITT: Frenchmen, Brits, Americans, Russians, Italians and Spaniards upset that their waifis got rekt.

 

[mutonizer]

Pretty sure you get a tiny fraction of manpower from non-core territory (ie conquered land without a claim). Because I just dropped the Soviets as Poland, and I get less than half a percent of all the manpower they had.

I like this, in spite of its flaws, which seem to mostly be in the actual warfare area. AI cannot make good divisions to save its life.

What's a "good division" for you? Can provide couple examples?

 

[Ulminati]

Width 40 to make maximum use of combat width while simultaneously letting the support attachments give their bonuses to add many people as possible. Or width 20 of low infrastructure. AI divisions are usually width 15-17 with max 1-2 support attachments. It's also really rare to see any antitank on ai divisions except panzers.

Also using mountaineers or marines of its fighting primarily in mountains or somewhere with lots of rivers

The DiNMRK division that conquered Scandinavia was 7 mountaineers, 2 artillery, logistics, hospital, recon, signal, support arty.
It utterly obliterated Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. 15 divisions of it also annexed the British isles.

 

[XenomorphII]

I misunderstood you, the higher conscription laws that grant those kinds of bonuses are pretty painful looking (never gone above extensive myself).

What's a "good division" for you? Can provide couple examples?

I use 5 support brigades (recon, logistics, hospital, signal, maintenance or engineer depending on nation and needs for what gets prioritized) gradually adding them over time. I only make 2 types of division infantry or med armor. I think I use 6x inf, 2x art and 2x Mot, 4xArm, 2xSPArt. Main thing is make sure the width is 20-22, but I think those numbers should be close. Those divisions have destroyed the ai, which seems to not use support brigades much (at least from a cursory check of other nations existing divisions on load) and tends to churn out tons of infantry. I have used those division templates as China, Poland, Greece, Germany, and Italy so far, and my armies inflict obscene casualties with that as long as they are equipped (Pol v Soviets was 200k to 7mil, one front war for both sides for reference).

I don't think the ai is using things like the independent Arty or SPart, which absolutely destroy soft targets. They also don't deploy anti-tank equipment seemingly ever, even when faced with a heavily mechanized force, or do so so infrequently that it doesn't matter. Though I don't religiously load as the other countries to check, its mostly noting what they have while I have radar or decryption where I can "see" them. Also the ai loves its planes, which seem super pointless to me as things stand, unless you want to hit someones navy.

Hope that's helpful.

 

[Ulminati]

Planes are bad for winning wars but great for getting everything at the peace conference. Bombing a few factories gives you more war score than capturing a city.


Re: Conscription, I think the Militarism National Focus is"bugged" and applies to non-cores as well

 

[thesheeep]

i doubt that fuel, ammo and industry will ever be fixed/introduced.

Highly unlikely, if you ask me.

At least the fuel and ammo part.

They have to keep some balance here between Excel and Minesweeper.

Hmm. I could swear HoI 1 - played on exactly the same scale - had fuel and ammo (or supplies).

Guess that's why this thread is tagged with "Decline"...

At least to me, there is a point where "more details" simply equals "not fun" and "too cumbersome". And I'm pretty sure that's the case for the majority of players playing games like CK2, EUIV, Victoria, etc.
There is a place for games that are "too much" for me, of course, but they are mostly those fancy niche games focusing on a smaller scale, but far more detailed battlefield.

So, yes, I want it dumbed down and dirty.

And I bet someone will quote me on that on a regular basis...

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

i doubt that fuel, ammo and industry will ever be fixed/introduced.

Highly unlikely, if you ask me.

At least the fuel and ammo part.

They have to keep some balance here between Excel and Minesweeper.

Hmm. I could swear HoI 1 - played on exactly the same scale - had fuel and ammo (or supplies).

Guess that's why this thread is tagged with "Decline"...

At least to me, there is a point where "more details" simply equals "not fun" and "too cumbersome". And I'm pretty sure that's the case for the majority of players playing games like CK2, EUIV, Victoria, etc.
There is a place for games that are "too much" for me, of course, but they are mostly those fancy niche games focusing on a smaller scale, but far more detailed battlefield.

So, yes, I want it dumbed down and dirty.

And I bet someone will quote me on that on a regular basis...

Case in point example: Supreme Ruler. I mean holy fuck that thing could kill an engineer if you showed it to them.

 

[thesheeep]

Yeah, I tried to play that for a few hours before I found that it simply wasn't for me.

 

[rezaf]

I totally agree about Supreme Ruler. Pretty extreme example, though.

Personally, I was fine having some amount of strategic depth in my strategy games.
I basically enjoyed having to use knife and fork and spoon in equal measures to eat my meal.
Of course, I have to admit the world is simpler now that even steak comes as soup and we are left with only the spoon, but stil, I miss the old days of actually chewing myself every now and then.

 

[Doktor Best]

Hearts of Iron 3 vs Darkest Hour, which is better and why? Gonna pick one of them on GOG sale.