Here are some things that put me off vanilla JA2.

[Gangrelrumbler]

Dumping my post from the other thread for maximum attention:

Well, there are some things I hate about JA, the combat system is top-notch but I have a gripe with other things
-There is a shitload of mercenaries but most will not be seen. Since the beginning you have money to hire top-notch mercs (or at least one) so there is no reason to bother with them on your first playthrough. Which means most of the NPCs (who also consumed a lot of budget because of voice acting and shit) won't be seen by most players. I mean they made you work your way up from using shitty guns despite it making no fucking sesne, why no do this with mercenaries.
-Cities (which most players will see) are populated by a bunch of generics and 2-3 unique NPCs. Makes them feel a bit dull
-I think it may be because I play the game wrong but cities are underused. Instead of being entrenched in ambush-zones or something enemies just run to you after hearing one of them getting shot and will be killed one after another. Often reducing capturing a sector to sniping everyone from one spot
-Most enemies are just people with guns, replaced by people with better guns and better guns etc. Makes fighting them dull (not that the combat is dull by itself, but it's boring to see the same enemy over and over again). I mean sure it's a realistic game so they won't just throw hobgoblins with fireballs at you, but most realistic combat games are bigger in scale. There is artillery, mechanised infantry, heavy machine gunners, grenadiers, choppers medics, tanks (ok there are a few tanks, but only few), jeeps and shit. Here there are just people who will sometime use a grenade or a LAW.
-Managing your mercenaries is a pain in the ass. They will have less stamina if they are tired but won't go to sleep if they are not tired, synchronising them is pointlessly tedious. Can't they just get some pills or shit?
-Also. Not enough unique encounters and quests. Fighting bug queen and Mike was great. Everything in between? Not really.

I like it after seeing another bunch of dudes I often though "I wish I was playing Incubation".

You should really try out 1.13 in expert and iron man. Every encounter will feel unique. You'll never get bored.

No, fights'll still be humans with guns all the way, even if there's more grenade launchers and the like involved. The game really suffers from not having more varied encounters where different approaches would be forced. JA2 combat is satisfying but does get old relatively fast due to the sameyness of it all.

I don't really get why you specifically mention fighting Mike btw, Gangrelrumbler - he's just another random guy in every way beyond having that small convo.

To make it short:
-his cronies used environment instead of rushing you, making you finally use the level and not fight in a tight spot against waves of enemies
-you knew where your enemies were instead of just bumping into them like you usually do which allowed you to plan your positioning
-he holed himself up in very defensable position which made me use stun granades in order get to him
-fighting with him made it an old action movie feel, old mercernaries resolving old grudges, like in Commando with Matrix and Bennett
-he was an unique enemy in an unique location in a game where you spend most of the time fighting a different versions of the same generic enemy in generic locations
-1.13 path could give different encounters the same amount of challenge but fighting some enemies who were using a clever strategy has a different feel to taking down Mike who was a real motherfucker using Gus because he asked you to

 

[Johannes]

Hmm, I don't recall Mike and his buddies using any special strategy. It's certainly possible they did, but it didn't make enough difference to make me notice or remember it, at least. Mike was just standing right in the middle of a town street without any cover whatsoever, as I recall - so to me it felt mostly anticlimactic, the unique buildup conversation and then you just cap him like nothing. Though it's also very possible that 1.13 overwrote special scripts they may have had, too.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Hmm, I don't recall Mike and his buddies using any special strategy. It's certainly possible they did, but it didn't make enough difference to make me notice or remember it, at least. Mike was just standing right in the middle of a town street without any cover whatsoever, as I recall - so to me it felt mostly anticlimactic, the unique buildup conversation and then you just cap him like nothing. Though it's also very possible that 1.13 overwrote special scripts they may have had, too.

Perhaps it have something with using roof of the building he used. When I used it (which didn't work-out for me) he run out, but when I was using ground he stayed inside and didn't came out even when I was engaging his security.

 

[Shadenuat]

How balanced is Enemies Drop All Items option in vanilla?

 

[Grimwulf]

How balanced is Enemies Drop All Items option in vanilla?

I find it decent combined with slow/very slow item progression. You basically get shitloads of crap but it feels nice if you like micromanagement. If you don't lower item progresseion however, you'll get overpowered pretty soon.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

There is another thing I disliked in JA 2. There is no option to go into turn-based mode without combat and there is no active pause. It makes moving around a pain in the ass. Mercenaries have a tendency to switch into a line formation whenever you send them somewhere which is the worst possible formation to enter a combat in.

 

[Grimwulf]

There is another thing I disliked in JA 2. There is no option to go into turn-based mode without combat and there is no active pause. It makes moving around a pain in the ass. Mercenaries have a tendency to switch into a line formation whenever you send them somewhere which is the worst possible formation to enter a combat in.

Did you try the latest 1.13 build?
1. There is an option to enter turn-based mode in any time, like in good old Fallout. I believe it's on the "D" button on default. Not too sure tho.
2. Mercs actually keep formation while moving outside of turn-based mod. Any formation you like.

Both changes are in the latest build which came out a month ago or so.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

There is another thing I disliked in JA 2. There is no option to go into turn-based mode without combat and there is no active pause. It makes moving around a pain in the ass. Mercenaries have a tendency to switch into a line formation whenever you send them somewhere which is the worst possible formation to enter a combat in.

Did you try the latest 1.13 build?
1. There is an option to enter turn-based mode in any time, like in good old Fallout. I believe it's on the "D" button on default. Not too sure tho.
2. Mercs actually keep formation while moving outside of turn-based mod. Any formation you like.

Both changes are in the latest build which came out a month ago or so.

This thread is about vanilla JA2, not the modded game. I already got that 1.13 makes it much superior but that's not what the thread is about.

 

[Grimwulf]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

 

[J_C]

OP is retarded.

 

[J_C]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

AFAIK 1.13 breaks the game thanks to the AI not being able to cope with googles and scopes. It has a lot of good stuff, but i never use 1.13 because it fucks up the game in a few way. Vanilla game with 1.12 patch is still a great game. I'm totally satisfied with it because I don't need the feature overload 1.13 offers.

 

[hoverdog]

OP is retarded.

It's Awor Szurkrarz, what did you expect?

 

[Grimwulf]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

AFAIK 1.13 breaks the game thanks to the AI not being able to cope with googles and scopes. It has a lot of good stuff, but i never use 1.13 because it fucks up the game in a few way. Vanilla game with 1.12 patch is still a great game. I'm totally satisfied with it because I don't need the feature overload 1.13 offers.

But it's all customizable. Pick the old aiming system and go for it, if you like the vanilla one. Once again, the scope problem was attended in the latest build.

Vanilla is pathetically easy. It's fucking slaughterhouse, when in every encounter you face fucking zombies going YOLO at you, on after another. In 1.13 they try to flank you, hide behind cover, make you break formation and trap you in tight spot, and CALL FOR FUCKING AIRSTRIKES, goddamit. I'll forgive it anything for actually working AI.

Ok, it DOES act funny eventualy, but it's so rare cases that I won't even bother mentioning. AI in 1.12 is pathetic and game-breaking for me.

 

[J_C]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

AFAIK 1.13 breaks the game thanks to the AI not being able to cope with googles and scopes. It has a lot of good stuff, but i never use 1.13 because it fucks up the game in a few way. Vanilla game with 1.12 patch is still a great game. I'm totally satisfied with it because I don't need the feature overload 1.13 offers.

But it's all customizable. Pick the old aiming system and go for it, if you like the vanilla one. Once again, the scope problem was attended in the latest build.

Vanilla is pathetically easy. It's fucking slaughterhouse, when in every encounter you face fucking zombies going YOLO at you, on after another. In 1.13 they try to flank you, hide behind cover, make you break formation and trap you in tight spot, and CALL FOR FUCKING AIRSTRIKES, goddamit. I'll forgive it anything for actually working AI.

Ok, it DOES act funny eventualy, but it's so rare cases that I won't even bother mentioning. AI in 1.12 is pathetic and game-breaking for me.

But I'm not that good of a player and vanilla game is just challenging enough for me.

 

[Grimwulf]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

AFAIK 1.13 breaks the game thanks to the AI not being able to cope with googles and scopes. It has a lot of good stuff, but i never use 1.13 because it fucks up the game in a few way. Vanilla game with 1.12 patch is still a great game. I'm totally satisfied with it because I don't need the feature overload 1.13 offers.

But it's all customizable. Pick the old aiming system and go for it, if you like the vanilla one. Once again, the scope problem was attended in the latest build.

Vanilla is pathetically easy. It's fucking slaughterhouse, when in every encounter you face fucking zombies going YOLO at you, on after another. In 1.13 they try to flank you, hide behind cover, make you break formation and trap you in tight spot, and CALL FOR FUCKING AIRSTRIKES, goddamit. I'll forgive it anything for actually working AI.

Ok, it DOES act funny eventualy, but it's so rare cases that I won't even bother mentioning. AI in 1.12 is pathetic and game-breaking for me.

But I'm not that good of a player and vanilla game is just challenging enough for me.

We all went through it. Trust me, as soon as you get a feel for vanilla one, you won't be able not to abuse his weaknesses. And it'll be like "Yeah, I'll shoot you once and go around that corner. I know you'll follow me and die. And your friends too, one guy after another. What? Throw a grenade at me to lure me out or try to outflank me? Pfff, I just know you'll never do that". Every. Fucking. Encounter.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

I have a weird fetish for always finishing games as they are before using mods unless they just fix things or bring back unfinished content. I also never finished JA2 before firstly because I didn't like the modern setting, secondly because I had a habit of leaving games unfinished.

 

[Shadenuat]

I'm playing vanilla now for second time (with some crappy but stable 800x600 mod). First time I couldn't finish it, don't remember why. Difficulty maybe? Or maybe I spent too much time just fucking around with laptop and trying to send Deidrana flowers and a cake. Now I find it nice and challenging. I like dry realistic militaristic setting, fine humor, merc voices and personalities, options in combat, health system, strategic and tactical layers, logistics and open maps. Playing it after Wasteland 2 I especially like completely flat open maps with lots of cover and merc jumping over fences and cutting through wire.
For now I only dislike ammo management (although sector inventory is almost streamlined design), enemies wasting ammo beyond gun optimal range and how they seem to like to fall for ambushes.

One questionable thing about strategic design of the game is the possible grinding though. What is stopping me from hiring cheap mercs (which I kinda did, my team is my IMP (I got stealthy+auto weapons), Igor, Fidel, Nails, Fox & Dimitry, and Ira is training militia) and using first mine to train them all to 99 in all stats? Especially since cheap mercs have surprisingly good stats sometimes. Like Igor, he is quite a bargain for his low price.
I'd also like to see NPCs actually do something, like train milita in sectors where I don't. It would be very SpaceRanger'y.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

It takes a lot of time you could spend actually doing something fun.

 

[Shadenuat]

Loled at factory with evil woman making children sew T-shirts for firstworldia. Things like that would not pass censorship today.

And the way they describe all items is so sexy. This gasmask it has drinking attachment and vynil bag and plastic poncho... don't know how all that looks but I totally want one.
Bastards lied about titanium crowbar though. That thing is already half broken!

 

[Luka-boy]

What is stopping me from hiring cheap mercs (which I kinda did, my team is my IMP (I got stealthy+auto weapons), Igor, Fidel, Nails, Fox & Dimitry, and Ira is training militia) and using first mine to train them all to 99 in all stats? Especially since cheap mercs have surprisingly good stats sometimes. Like Igor, he is quite a bargain for his low price.

The mercs' prices are adjusted as they level up and also that mine will dry up after a while.

 

[Grimwulf]

But vanilla JA2 came out freakin' ages ago. Why would anyone play vanilla now when you got tried-and-true 1.13? It's like playing vanilla VtM:B - it makes no sense and you can't even finish it.

It's like "I don't like that and that about this game. Oh, I can easily fix it, but I won't, coz the fix has nothin' to do with the original".

I have a weird fetish for always finishing games as they are before using mods unless they just fix things or bring back unfinished content. I also never finished JA2 before firstly because I didn't like the modern setting, secondly because I had a habit of leaving games unfinished.

Well, I finished it back in the days, but even if I didn't... idk, I'd still played with the mod.

I'm playing vanilla now for second time (with some crappy but stable 800x600 mod). First time I couldn't finish it, don't remember why. Difficulty maybe? Or maybe I spent too much time just fucking around with laptop and trying to send Deidrana flowers and a cake. Now I find it nice and challenging. I like dry realistic militaristic setting, fine humor, merc voices and personalities, options in combat, health system, strategic and tactical layers, logistics and open maps. Playing it after Wasteland 2 I especially like completely flat open maps with lots of cover and merc jumping over fences and cutting through wire.
For now I only dislike ammo management (although sector inventory is almost streamlined design), enemies wasting ammo beyond gun optimal range and how they seem to like to fall for ambushes.

One questionable thing about strategic design of the game is the possible grinding though. What is stopping me from hiring cheap mercs (which I kinda did, my team is my IMP (I got stealthy+auto weapons), Igor, Fidel, Nails, Fox & Dimitry, and Ira is training militia) and using first mine to train them all to 99 in all stats? Especially since cheap mercs have surprisingly good stats sometimes. Like Igor, he is quite a bargain for his low price.
I'd also like to see NPCs actually do something, like train milita in sectors where I don't. It would be very SpaceRanger'y.

Give up on grinding, it's useless. When it comes to stats, just go for whatever you KNOW that you NEED. E.g., doc Danny can boost his marksmanship really easy, being ambidextrous and spamming shots from two pistols at ineffective range. With a slightly higher marksmanship he becomes quite an asset to the team. OR you could look at Flo from M.E.R.C., who has incredibly low cost ant teacher trait, but only one leadership. It takes about 7-8 days to train her to 20 leadership, so she can train militia, but it's worthwhile in the long run.

Physical stats rarely make difference. Even worse, they make your AIM and MERC mercs cost higher. Just stop being so munchkin. I was at one point - it didn't bring me any joy.

What is stopping me from hiring cheap mercs (which I kinda did, my team is my IMP (I got stealthy+auto weapons), Igor, Fidel, Nails, Fox & Dimitry, and Ira is training militia) and using first mine to train them all to 99 in all stats? Especially since cheap mercs have surprisingly good stats sometimes. Like Igor, he is quite a bargain for his low price.

The mercs' prices are adjusted as they level up and also that mine will dry up after a while.

HEY! Don't talk lies about my JA2, dammit!

Depletion of the mine is a RANDOM event that MAY OR MAY NOT happen to the player ONCE per playthrough. I guess you could grab Chitzena mine and stick to it for a long time, if you so afraid of depletion - Chitzena gives the lowest income and if you don't have any other mines, then you'll leave Mr. Random no choice. But for fuck sake, isn't it too much metagaming?

== == ==

I love JA2 for one single reason: when I want to play modern setting, I want a lot of guns. I want choice, I want customization, I want modification and I want balance. Nothing but JA2 gives you that AND a lot more. Expert, Iron Man, Tons of Guns, Enemies Drop All, Very Slow Item Progression, Normal quality at Bobby Rays + Quantity x 10 = m-m-maximum enjoyment for me.

And I also love making Gunslinger+Gunfither+Ambidextrous guy with Malicious trait at IMP. He soon becomes a machine, spamming shitload of shots from two pistols and hitting everyone in painful spots. Agony, agony everywhere.

 

[Luka-boy]

HEY! Don't talk lies about my JA2, dammit!

Depletion of the mine is a RANDOM event that MAY OR MAY NOT happen to the player ONCE per playthrough. I guess you could grab Chitzena mine and stick to it for a long time, if you so afraid of depletion - Chitzena gives the lowest income and if you don't have any other mines, then you'll leave Mr. Random no choice. But for fuck sake, isn't it too much metagaming?

It's not so random. With vanilla settings it WILL happen to one mine every playthrough if you capture it.

But you're right, it doesn't have to be the first one you capture. It's selected at random when the game starts which one will get depleted if captured, so sorry for that mistake.

 

[laclongquan]

First time I try 1.13 with Enemies Drop All I got bored looking at piles of cheap shits. I dont have enough time and inventory space to move them. And selling them on the field sound too much gamey for my sensibility.

 

[Grimwulf]

First time I try 1.13 with Enemies Drop All I got bored looking at piles of cheap shits. I dont have enough time and inventory space to move them. And selling them on the field sound too much gamey for my sensibility.

No need to sell that crap, Tony can't afford more than 15k a day anyway. But yeah, you gotta love inventory management to play like that. I like how it gives more realism and immersion to the game.

 

[Johannes]

If the game was realistic those captured guns would go to the militia you train, and also the soldiers would retreat more than once in a blue moon before dying.