KickStarter Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption - adventure-RPG from the creators of Quest for Glory

[Infinitron]

Corey Cole Fair enough. If you think PS:T wasn't adventurey enough, that definitely says something about what kind of game you're planning to make.

 

[iamlindoro]

Fine, lots of you have the same insight as those "marketers" to "know" that Hero-U will be a terrible game, just as they "knew" Hero's Quest would suck. We're relying on people who want to see more of what we can make. If there are enough of those, we'll be able to make our game, and you can all critique it next year. But why people like suejak and iamlindoro are threatened by it, and don't want us to attempt to make a new game, that I really don't get.

Where to begin? There will always be people on the internet who disagree with you. It's the internet. You have to let it roll of your back or you'll drive yourself nuts. Secondly-- Suejak has repeatedly said you had his money and is one of your supporters. He's offering you some criticism, as one of your customers. Realize in this new role as a salesperson and customer service professional, that you need to love your angry customers as much as your adoring fans. As important as you were to the release of all the Quest for Glory games, I'm sure you didn't get white stamp approval to put whatever you wanted into it-- I'm sure even the Sierra of the 90s had some manner of editorial review that helped shape QfG into something marketable. Recognize that while we *all* loved Quest for Glory, that isn't (in my case) cause to offer you unqualified support for any future works. You still need to earn me as a customer, and you haven't done that yet. Realize in this new role as salesperson and customer service professional that you need to be able to adapt when you're not succeeding, and evaluate how you can succeed in the future.

I've tried to politely offer you my insight as to why you are struggling to mightily to succeed. If your kickstarter fails, I hope you won't conclude (as you appear ready to) that there are only a few thousand people who are fans of your work. Rather, I hope you will ask yourself what you could have done differently to win over your fans such as me, and the many people who have expressed similar opinions. If you aren't willing to do that, it's our mutual loss. But that still doesn't mean I'll put down any cash in the hopes that the magic development box will give birth to an *actual* QfG successor. My conclusion over the last month is that moderating factors at Sierra, any oversight you had, *combined with* your own talents are what produced Quest for Glory. That is to say-- you produced QfG because you were forced to include the elements that we all seem to be yearning for here-- not because you appear to have ever placed any great priority on those things.

Nobody has called you a drooling idiot, and you've come off as rather defensive about what we've tried to make constructive criticism. Having to resort to calling us "threatened" when we offer a dissenting opinion is frankly disappointing. You and your wife are undoubtedly fine game designers. Based on some of your reaction to criticism, however, I'm glad that Sierra employed other people to promote your work.

 

[Jaesun]

I think the main disagreements are some want another carbon copy of Quest For Glory, but the Cole's want to do something like that but expand upon it. And are passionate about. And in that I have personally backed this. They have provided me with some of the most excellent adventures in the past, and I am wanting to see what they would like to do, something they like and are passionate about. For some, change is just a scary thing, and for others it is an awesome opportunity for something wonderful.

 

[iamlindoro]

if you select for the best marketing and not say, the best substance, then don't complain when you get more of the former and less of the latter...

When did I ask for more marketing? I'm asking for different substance. They just happen to be alienating the same people whom they need to reach their goal by being poor at marketing and customer service. Calling it what it is doesn't mean I want them to fail, doesn't mean I want a QfG carbon copy, doesn't mean I don't want them to make a game, or any number of other arguments that have no basis in fact but which make it easy to discount a dissenting opinion.

If the best counterpoint you can muster to someone who disagrees with you is an attack on that person, then odds are you're not debating from a particularly strong foundation to begin with. Let's say the few dozen-odd folks with reservations about the approach taken by Hero-U each represent a hundred backers with a similar opinion, conservatively speaking. Each of those disagreeing feels as passionately as you do about Quest for Glory-- maybe even moreso if they're willing to risk the disdain of others by daring to disagree. That is a huge untapped resource of passionate fans that you want to turn to your cause. Several of the people making character attacks rather than cogent arguments here have been liberally wallpapering any and every site with cut and pastes, bumps, and other material transplanted from the Hero-U kickstarter.... and I don't blame them or resent them for that in the least. But both the Coles and those... erm... "active" fans are doing themselves a huge disservice by being so obstinate and hostile to the people who aren't quite sold on the concept yet. There's a huge untapped market that's looking for something else. Maybe the Coles will see that if the KS fails and rework their pitch/reconsider the game mechanics. Maybe they won't. But the market is out there.

 

[suejak]

Hey Corey, thanks for the reply.

I think most of your reply is worth letting lie. (PST focused on monsters over story?) However, there is one thing I want to talk about in detail...

I was specifically referring to the death of adventure games. Sierra closed shop in 1999. LucasArts continued working on adventures until 2002, but didn't ship them - I think their last adventure game shipped in 2000. There have been some European adventure games since then; I haven't played through most of them.

It's fine to say that, but let me repeat the quote: "Gaming as we knew it was dead, except for some decent MMOs." What do "some decent MMOs" have to do with it? There's no way to interpret that comment except as a comment on games and gaming in general. I don't want to shove this in your face, but don't try to spin it. It's obvious what you meant.

Does it matter? Lori and I have made some great games for you guys in the past.

I want you to succeed, and I want to see you give another game series a shot. However, I honestly don't think you've proven yourself, no. The QfG games were produced in an era when basically every adventure-like game Sierra made was good. QfG owed as much to its Sierra "vibe" and polish -- present in all Sierra adventure games -- as it did to any contributions from you and Lori. You've said that you could have run QfG out of your living room, and I just think that's absurdly overstating your importance. Sierra, the company, did a whole lot to make QfG good.

However, even though you have nothing really uniquely fun to your name outside of QfG, I want to see if you can do something cool post-Sierra. So I support you. As suspicious as I am of your abilities, you have my money.

Anyway, I love your passion. Keep it up.

 

[iamlindoro]

are doing themselves a huge disservice by being so obstinate and hostile

Have you read your own comments here and elsewhere? You cast aspersions on people's capabilities, character and motivations. You mock people's efforts to help the campaign succeed.

Kindly show me where I've done that. I've done nothing of the sort-- but of course, this distraction is easier than debating the argument itself, right? I haven't mocked *anyone*, nor have I put anyone down, nor have I discouraged anyone from doing anything that makes them happy. I've never asked anyone not to pledge, and I've gone out of my way to frame things as my opinion, and to offer constructive advice about how it could appeal more effectively to me, and to those like me.

Just because I'm disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm insulting you.

 

[Gozma]

The combat in PS:T is pretty analogous to the combat in QfG, i.e. it is the annoying brainless shit that happens while you are playing an adventure game that by strange ludic alchemy becomes the reason you bother stealing money to buy the chainmail and throwing daggers etc. So somehow the reason I am exploring the interaction space of this adventure game is so I can more easily plow through boring shit combat so I can get to explore more of the interaction space of this adventure game. I liked QfG while mainline adventure games just filled me with inertia, shit is ridiculous but it was the case

 

[Blaine]

The combat in Quest for Glory was little more than a simple mini-game and placeholder that accomplished two things: It demonstrated that your character could actually fight and defeat fearsome beasts (unlike most joke-wuss adventure game protagonists), and it served to further differentiate each class choice from the others. Choose a fighter, and you'd smack enemies with your sword and block with your shield; choose a thief, and you'd either sneak past or soften them up with thrown daggers before dodging and slashing your way to victory, or perhaps fleeing; choose a wizard, and you'd charm enemies, blind them, blast them from afar, enchant your dagger to do more damage and so on.

I really wish they hadn't tried to "spice up" combat in Quest for Glory IV. In addition to the infamous bugs it's always had, the combat is now so fast on any modern machine that it's unplayable... unless it's working on ScummVM. I seem to remember it might be.

Could be time to crack out that dusty old CD case and relive the... wait for it... Glory days.

 

[SCO]

QFG always was to me about lots and lots of text (like a normal-adventure) but 'augmented' by yet more knobs to turn that gave me more text (lore, plot, characterization, C&C, whatever).

Combat? Putting in Tekken 2 combat minigame for me would have the same effect.

 

[jimboton]

Hey Corey, thanks for the reply.

I think most of your reply is worth letting lie. (PST focused on monsters over story?) However, there is one thing I want to talk about in detail...

"Torment. It was fun, but not really adventure style, story-based puzzles" So where does he say 'monsters over story' precisely? Torment didn't have story based puzzles, that's a fact. It focused on problem solving even less than on 'monsters'. Corey is exactly right on that one.

 

[suejak]

jimboton

Summary: The RPG's on the list were fun, but over-emphasized monster hacking at the expense of the story.

That's where he said it. Anyway, I don't know what a "story puzzle" is.

 

[Pope Amole II]

want another carbon copy of Quest For Glory

But that's the entire theoretical point of kickstarter - to give people what they want, not what developers dream of. Successful kickstarter, as it seems, is less about producing some genuine & unique ideas and not so much about famous persone and more about guessing the crowd's desires - people supported Fargo not because he's that awesome, it's just that a huge crowd exists that wants a proper Fallout 3 (yeah, fallout 3 - it was more about fallout here than it was about wasteland and they really cashed in on that factor with Morgan & Avellone & stuff), and he's the only one who promised to deliver that (while lots of other people failed over years). Same with project eternity - people want their planescape:torment 2 & baldurs gate 3, but where else will they get that? And the reason for stuff like Shaker failing is probably the same - who the hell is interested in that? Really?

And, when it comes to Coles, who are only known thanks to their QfG games, it's obvious that everyone expects a very specific kind of games from them. They already messed up once in this department, making QfG 5 much more RPGier and it wasn't so warmly greeted because of that, now they're stepping on the very same rake again - not many are interested in RPG from them because... Why should we be? First, we already have a shitload of RPGs on kickstarter, but only Quest for Infamy in the QfG genre. And, while it's truly a carbon copy of original games, you really can't use "another" word here - I mean, over all these years, who else has tried to copy this kind of a game? What, you want to mention the Fifth Disciple? Or, maybe, Worldspiral: Liath, which isn't even a proper clone and just sorta resembles the mage walkthroughs? Or some other obscure name nobody sane ever heard about? This genre mix is extremely rare so is it that surprising that fans want to see more of that?

And, as I've said, fans make the rules in crowdfunding. Or, at the very least, you should maintain the illusion of this. Really, Coles should've humbled their egos a bit and made a kickstarter with game that their fans want - after all, it's not like it's gonna be the last game of their lives (probably), so after release of that they could always spend their earnings on the rpg project or whatever.

 

[Blackthorne]

The Coles are trying for something different... it's their bag, and they know what they're doing. They're following their muse. I'm backing it, because they've been such an influence on me and the work that my company has done.

Well, if you want something more adventure-y and decidedly retro, you can always try our game!

www.questforinfamy.com
www.infamous-quests.com


Bt

 

[suejak]

The Coles are trying for something different... it's their bag, and they know what they're doing. They're following their muse. I'm backing it, because they've been such an influence on me and the work that my company has done.

Well, if you want something more adventure-y and decidedly retro, you can always try our game!

www.questforinfamy.com
www.infamous-quests.com


Bt

Yeah, link your donation page and I'm there. That's beautiful.

EDIT: Why are you able to provide so much amazing QfG-like content for so little money? Corey predicted millions of dollars would be necessary, but you guys have like 1% of that and your game looks better than Hero U.

 

[Minttunator]

Blackthorne, that looks great! I'm downloading the demo right now.

 

[Blackthorne]

The Coles are trying for something different... it's their bag, and they know what they're doing. They're following their muse. I'm backing it, because they've been such an influence on me and the work that my company has done.

Well, if you want something more adventure-y and decidedly retro, you can always try our game!

www.questforinfamy.com
www.infamous-quests.com


Bt

Yeah, link your donation page and I'm there. That's beautiful.

EDIT: Why are you able to provide so much amazing QfG-like content for so little money? Corey predicted millions of dollars would be necessary, but you guys have like 1% of that and your game looks better than Hero U.

Someone asked me this on another forum earlier today, and this is what I posted there.

Well, we've been making no-budget games for years. We produced King's Quest III and Space Quest 2 (www.infamous-adventures.com) on absolutely no budget... we've learned tricks over the years. The problem with them is that they took years instead of months of production. In raising a sum of money on Kickstarter, we've been able to close the time gap on our usual production because we can at least pay something now.

We've also been able to attract artists of unimpeachable talent, professionalism and dedication to the project solely because they are dedicated to, and love, adventure games. Everyone who is working on our game is a huge fan of ALL kinds of adventure games. All of the team, however, still work their "real" full-time jobs, as well as work on Quest For Infamy. People were willing to take less money up-front in the hopes that we'll produce a high-quality, enjoyable adventure game that will sell for a reasonable price, and that it will sell well. If Quest For Infamy enjoys success, we'll be able to continue on making games for our company, and generate enough income to be able to pay our employees full time. We have a very small team, as well. It's just a different business model [than Hero-U]. We've been used to doing it for free for so long, that we're willing to sacrifice some things on the top end to bring us to a better bottom end, so to speak. People believed in us enough to invest their money, so we're investing ourselves and our lives in it. We have a bit more risk - we're rolling the dice hard on this.

So, we're hoping it pays off later. I really think it will, because we're working very hard on making an amazing game - if it doesn't, honestly - we're in no different position than we were when we made KQIII and SQ2.... but at least this time, we tried to make a go of it.



Bt

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

 

[suejak]

 

[suejak]

Weird update today:

Wow, what a day! With close to 300 new backers and almost $23,000 added to the till, this was our best day since Day 2 of the campaign. We now have 4,100 backers and need about $127,000 to reach our goal. Keep the energy going for just five more days, we'll be funded!

By my math, we have 5-1/2 days to go, so all we have to do is keep doubling the number of players and amount of pledges each day... $46K, $92K, $184K, $368K, $736K, and another $736K on the half-day... I guess I'd better post the $1 million and $2 million stretch goals! Check it out at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

Anyway, I hope they hit $400k!

 

[FeelTheRads]

http://youtu.be/HbJ5n0dx0MU

Pretty fun this fireside chat! I love hearing how they worked on those games.

 

[suejak]

Only $100k left! ...and 3 days! ...

Hope they make it!

Alternatively, I hope they fail and come back with a QfG-like second proposal!

 

[taxalot]

I see an Apple keyboard. They are losing more of my respect witch each day passing.

 

[Zed]

66k left, 48 hours remaining. They actually might make it but not without some serious out-of-the-ordinary pledges.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If they make it (there's really no doubt now), it won't be anymore out of the ordinary than SpaceVenture which got more in 48 hours than this needs to succeed.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Ack. I sure hope they succeed. Sadly I've pledged all I can spare, and can't up my pledge for financial reasons.