KickStarter Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption - adventure-RPG from the creators of Quest for Glory

[iamlindoro]

I should add that I'm not trying to convince anyone not to support the KS-- people should definitely support it if this is what it's looking for. I'm not going to be swayed in my opinion without some retooling, but I don't expect to change anyone else's mind either. Quite the opposite. I am just putting out there that if it fails, that the developers consider that it's not lack of interest, but rather the approach that might need some rethinking. I think that a million dollar KS goal is probably not impossible if they were to approach this as a classic adventure rather than a tile based boardgame RPG. So, what I'm saying is they shouldn't give up if their first effort doesn't succeed!

 

[Crooked Bee]

He simply represents the part of the fandom that only want "more of the same". Personally I do not (not necessarily, at least), and neither do the Coles.

 

[Infinitron]

iamlindoro Unfortunately it seems the games we loved were a flash in the pan, a product of the Coles being forced to work within constraints they never wanted. This is probably hyperbole, but can you say "George Lucas"?

He simply represents the part of the fandom that only want "more of the same". Personally I do not (not necessarily, at least), and neither do the Coles.

Innovashun? On my Codex?

 

[suejak]

Ok. First, they aren't pitching Gabriel Knight, King's Quest, Space Quest etc here... They're pitching QFG, which was a bit different from the other Sierra games, no?

Second, what exactly about the "traditional Sierra style" is missing here?

3rd person perspective? Check

Inventory/dialog puzzles? Check

Painted backgrounds? Check

I get the feeling that you just want the SCI1/2 engine.

This is one of those things where somebody pretends like they don't see the obvious, right? Like we'll all stop and reconsider our biases and realize, oh man, this game could very well be basically QfG. Whyfore haft mine biases clouded my judgements yore.

Even though... the developers say... it's not...

And like... they don't want to clone "somebody else's game"...

And like... it's turn-based combat with quests in the dungeon-like sewers...

And like... "QfG was 70% adventure 30% RPG. This game will be 60% RPG 40% adventure. Also, Sierra's puzzles sucked."

WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBLY be missing??? Ponderous!!

 

[The Round Peg]

They are making the game they want to make, not the game YOU want them to make. If you don't like it, just don't pledge. It's that simple.

If you want them to make the game YOU want them to make, then you should fully fund their project. When you pay for their entire project, you get to tell them exactly how they should make their game. That's how things work.

Here's the point of them going to Kickstarter: so they can make the game they want to make, without listening to publishers or someone like YOU commanding them what they should make or how they should make their game. You are not even pledging any money, and you want to act like some publisher or financier, telling other people how they should make their game?!? Talk about a delusional ego.

The game is not even made yet, so there is still room for inputs. But you'd have to pledge at least $20 to gain access to the suggestion forums to Cole, (otherwise you're just wasting people's time with your blabber,) but it's still up to them to decide if they are taking your suggestions and how they want to make their game.

So there you go. End of that discussion. Move on.

 

[suejak]

Did you just make three posts to reply to one post...?

It's obvious that the new game will be much more combat-focused, and much more reminiscent of a typical RPG with "quests" and lots of combat and dungeon-romping.

It's not so much a question of "turn-based combat or arcade combat" -- it's a question of whether that matters. You are the one playing dumb and not seeing why this won't be another QfG. I'm telling you it's because of turn-based combat, an overt combat focus, and comments like: "As for the prominence of combat, we think it's fun, and it makes sense in this game. We watched some play-throughs of Quest for Glory and felt people were avoiding monsters all too easily. You'll be able to avoid some fights in this game – especially since you're a Rogue – but might not want to do that too often because it will be both fun and useful."

They expect you to get experience points through combat or completing quests, then "choose" your upgrades. Basically WoW or any other popamole RPG. "Skill development (lock-picking, sneaking, and such) will be mostly skill-based, with some improvements coming from things you do in class (think Persona) and in the library, and some from combat and dungeon activity. We are trying to avoid the grind of "practice makes perfect" that some skills (such as throwing) became in later Quest for Glory games.

We are extending the University metaphor to have a "major" ("Rogue") and "electives". The latter will be available only when you have sufficiently impressed your instructor, so they will have a bit of a leveling ("ding!") feel. They act like Talent points in World of Warcraft or Proficiencies in AD&D. When you get a new elective, you might choose to increase your Botany 1 skill to Botany 2 or pick up a new level 1 elective."

And your question was how is this game not QfG-like?? It has tiered, point-based WoW talents! You can only improve when they tell you you've earned it, then you click the Upgrade button. Oh Codex, I don't see the differences!! You just want an SCI parser game with Al Lowe cameos!

 

[Jaesun]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1878147873/hero-u-rogue-to-redemption/posts/333348?ref=activity

New update:

Here's a relevant post I made on an adventuregamers.com thread. It's about why we are making the particular style of game we've chosen for Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption:

Would it make more sense to make a game “much like” Quest for Glory? Hard to say. In any case, between the original Hero’s Quest and Quest for Glory 5, development budgets ballooned from $250K up to over $2.5M. Even if it was “only” $1.5M, that’s too much to ask on Kickstarter.

You can’t step into the same stretch of river twice. The Quest for Glory games were a unique combination of Lori’s and my background with the tools we had available at Sierra. If we had been working for a company with different tools, we would have made an entirely different game.

In fact, when I designed Castle of Dr. Brain - using those same tools - I would argue that *it* was an entirely different look and feel from Quest for Glory. Based on reviews and comments, people seem to think it was just as fun. Did lightning just happen to strike twice in the same place, or did I actually know something about designing games? A little of each, I’d say.

We tend to look at games, films, etc. with the unique perspective of being able to see the finished product. Will Hero-U be as much fun to play as Quest for Glory (pick your favorite number)? That’s impossible to tell. Filmmakers all think they’re making great films, but only in hindsight can we find out which ones were right about which of their films. Peter Jackson did an amazing job with Lord of the Rings, but I found his King Kong disappointing. Am I looking forward to his take on The Hobbit - knowing that he’s changed a lot of things? You bet I am!

What Lori and I will promise is that we are putting the same work and dedication into Hero-U as we put into each of our other games. We still have the same “gamers sensibility” that we applied as a yardstick each time. Hopefully we’ll be funny. Hopefully the dialogue will work as well as it did in Quest for Glory. Is it possible we’ll get this one wrong? Sure it’s possible - but I don’t think it’s the way to bet.

Of course, you can always “wait and see”. But then the game might not happen at all. It’s pretty much up to you, the players, to determine the fate of Hero-U. If you want higher production values, support at a higher level and get more of your friends to support the project. For now, we’ve designed a minimalist style that can be implemented within a reasonable budget. It’s more important to make sure that we can complete the game than to promise a level of polish that we won’t be able to fund.

It’s all about the story… and the puzzles… and the characters… and the game mechanics… and the play balance. Those are where we’ll be spending our time. In the meantime, the only promise we can make is that we will work hard to create the best experience we can. Really, that’s as much as anyone can promise.

This is just a part of the update. Follow the link for the full update.

 

[J1M]

Bleh.

Kickstarter isn't supposed to fully-fund projects. It is supposed to provide a needed boost so that a project's risk level can be reduced to a point where an extremely passionate person/team can undertake it. Maybe that means you work for free in exchange for royalties. Maybe it means a personal loan.

 

[suejak]

And your question was how is this game not QfG-like?? It has tiered, point-based WoW talents! You can only improve when they tell you you've earned it, then you click the Upgrade button. Oh Codex, I don't see the differences!! You just want an SCI parser game with Al Lowe cameos!

Ok, I don't really get your point about whether combat matters. Do you want combat and noncombat options? Because that's right there in the section you quoted in bold.

No, I want puzzles! I want combat to be secondary, even tertiary. It is instead primary.

QfG was never ever about combat. Combat was just a thing you did sometimes, like throwing rocks or explaining obvious things to Korean models on the Internet.

Avoiding grind sounds like a good thing to me. So you preferred the old system where instead of playing the game in a straightforward way (questing etc) you might say, spend the day in the adventurer's guild using the gym equipment, or throw knives at the board in the thieves guild, or cast the same spell repeatedly at the same target, in order to increase your skill level? So that you can have the appropriate skill level to solve a quest puzzle?

Frankly, yes. Because it wasn't that simple, nor was it boring.

More importantly, it was a LOT more fun than clicking Upgrade... to solve a puzzle. Probably just because every game has you click Upgrade these days.

 

[suejak]

By the way, there weren't "quests" in QfG. It's probably just because of the adventure game style of not explicitly telling you what you want to accomplish, but it helped the atmosphere in a surprising way when there was no "quest log" keeping tabs on all the stuff you're supposed to do. Instead of "beat quests for experience points," there was this other thing, "do stuff".

Personally, I miss that system.

 

[SCO]

Yeah, modern rpgs tend to have lots and lots of 'different content' that's actually remarkably shallow text-wise and copypasted with names changed, while adventures always went for more elaborate setpieces to support the characters and scenarios. So QFG ended up with fewer 'quests' but much more developed, than say; ultima 7 or even ultima underworld.

IDK, i think anything can work, including a QFG game with better combat. But better make sure the combat really *is* better, and that it doesn't swamp over the adventure part...
I always thought the adventure-rpg hybrid worked well (QFG, Bloodnet...) - but i never saw one that did in overhead fashion (Indy's desktop adventures is neither a rpg nor a adventure smart-asses).

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/873/P75/#14221

That is quite a set of questions!

Hero-U will actually cater strongly to adventure gamers. With Andrew programming it and contributing to the design, I’m sure he’ll skew it towards the adventure side at any opportunity. So will our artists.

Puzzles: Inventory definitely, both finding the object to act as a “key” in some way, obtaining an object someone else wants, etc.

Conversation puzzles: Absolutely! We will have close-ups for the talkers. You will choose dialogue from a menu, usually a short version of what you want to say. One major difference between this game and Quest for Glory or old LucasArts games is that the conversations are designed to feel “organic”, so you will not be able to just click through every option in turn. When you say something, you will get a response, then the conversation will continue from there or end. We’ll probably allow occasional backtracking by talking to the same person again, but usually that will lead to a different conversation or the character refusing to talk to you.

I didn’t play Hordes of the Underdark, but we will have some puzzles more reminiscent of Zelda than of most adventure games. For example, we plan to make use of the MacGuffin’s Curse engine to allow some manipulation of large objects in the room. This will be used both for pure puzzles and for combat tactics. For example, if you’re in the wine cellar surrounded by angry rats, you might move a few barrels so they can only get to you one or two at a time.

As a Rogue, you will also become an expert in traps, both disarming and setting them. You can use traps to improve the odds in combat situations or to prepare your escape. You won’t necessarily do this to solve a particular game puzzle; you’ll use your skills when they seem useful or appropriate to you.

This is the major reason we think of Hero-U as a role-playing game - You will often “solve puzzles” that we didn’t set for you. Of course, there are also plenty of traditional adventure game puzzles, but as in Quest for Glory, there are often multiple solutions to a problem.

The combat system is tactical and turn-based. Think of the catacombs as a giant chessboard. You can take advantage of other “pieces” (e.g. nearby objects), “make a move” by placing a trap, move around to get better tactical position, use your stealth ability to sneak around an enemy that hasn’t yet seen you, use flash powder to blind it (if it has eyes) so that you can get out of there, attack from a distance, then move, etc.

Combat uses an Action Point system - You can take as many actions in one turn as you have available points. For example, you might have 5 AP in a turn, major actions cost 4, minor actions cost 2, and movement costs 1. That means you could make move one square, attack, and defend. Or you could do a single major attack. Item use also costs AP. We will do extensive simulations early in the project to make the combat system balanced, fun, and solid.

We will cue you with text when an enemy is about to do a special attack. When you get that warning, you had better defend or dodge, because otherwise it’s going to hurt.

Ref upgrades, there are several types. You will be able to buy and find better equipment. You will learn new and improved Rogue skills from class, the library, in the catacombs (in several ways), and possibly from conversation puzzles. We are also following the University setting by occasionally allowing to take Electives. These courses give you special abilities off the main track, and are similar to a combination of World of Warcraft talents and professions. For example, taking Botany will allow you to find useful plants in the catacombs to sell or use to make poisons and potions.

The advancement system is a hybrid of level-based (e.g. D&D) and skill-based (e.g. QfG) approaches. Sometimes using a skill will improve your ability with it. In other cases - particularly the Electives - you will only be able to gain or improve them when you “gain a level” in the eyes of your Rogue instructor.

Locations: The game starts outside the school. Most of the exploration happens in the basement levels, or in the mysterious underground caverns and catacombs that you will have to discover. The rest is on the school grounds.

We want to have voice acting, and will add it if we reach a stretch goal. However, our higher priority is to make the game play and look great. Voice acting for our games is expensive because Lori and I write a *lot* of text (as you might gather from my posts here.

).

As for graphics, we are starting with the MacGuffin’s Curse look, but then we will turn our very talented artists loose. We will also have a number of background paintings such as the ones you see on the Kickstarter page. These will illustrate important scenes and serve as backdrops for conversation.

We will definitely support wide screens.

 

[The Round Peg]

If you like puzzles, shouldn't you play adventure games instead of RPG?

I hate puzzles and traditional adventure games. I played them back in the late 1980s to mid 1990s, but I stopped buying adventure games in the late 1990s when I realized how much I hated them.

Quest for Glory games were not traditional or puzzle-based adventures like other Sierra or LucasArts games. There were barely any puzzle in Quest for Glory games. With puzzle-based adventure games, progress and the instant gratification feedback loop and fun were halted when a player could not figure out a way to get passed a puzzle at a bottleneck or choke point of the game. With RPG, a player is rarely stuck or halted because he could not figure out exactly how the game designer wanted him to solve a puzzle in a particular way. RPG always offers multiple solutions to solve an obstacles, and the solutions are tied to the skills and classes of the player character.

I abandoned and never completed a lot of Sierra and LucasArts adventure games because I could never get passed one particular puzzle in a game. With Quest for Glory, I did not encounter any game-stopping, progress-halting puzzle in the games like I did in so many adventure games. Which is why I enjoyed Quest for Glory but not most other Sierra or LucasArts games.

 

[Infinitron]

Err, who are you addressing?

 

[The Round Peg]

I was addressing the other guys who were discussing how they wanted complex interesting puzzles in the new games. I don't want a King's Quest or Monkey Island. I don't even like adventure games. I want something similar to Quest for Glory, which is very different from other Quest or adventure games.

 

[Infinitron]

Uh, okay.

Good for you.

 

[suejak]

Quest for Glory was mostly puzzles.

 

[ghostdog]

I recently replayed QFG1 and it had few actual puzzles and some could be completed with multiple ways depending on your skills. The meat of the game was exploring, honing your skills and finishing quests. IIRC QFG2 had even less puzzles.

 

[suejak]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/564775-quest-for-glory-i-so-you-want-to-be-a-hero/faqs/8273
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/562671-quest-for-glory-ii-trial-by-fire/faqs/13268

These games are packed with puzzles. They are fundamentally adventure games. As has been stated and restated, the best part about the QfG games was that you could replay with a different class and the same puzzles would have different solutions. It is a replayable adventure game with stats that has puzzles whose solutions change depending on which of the three characters you chose to play. Do you want specific examples?

B - The Healer's Ring

This is really simple. You really positively want me to ruin it for you??? I'm warning you!!! Ok. If you really do need help read on. First pick up a rock and throw it at the pterosaur (It's Pteresa, Pterry's girlfriend!). It will fly away. Is that all you needed!? If not read on. !Thieves!: Now climb the tree, and pick up the ring in the nest. !Magic Users!: Magic Users must cast the fetch spell. !Fighters!: Fighters have to throw rocks at the nest, and it will fall down.

It gets even more adventure-gamey: you probably don't even know why you want that ring! You get it and hold on to it until you know where to use it.

Then there are many that DON'T change depending on your class./

Ok the talking skull won't let you in, eh? He wants eyes.

Have you visited the Frost Giant warrior, Brauggi Barter? Well give the huge freak fifty apples so his people won't starve to death. He'll give you a glowing red gem. Can you guess what you do with that gem? No, don't fence it to Boris. Go back to the talking skull, who's name you'll learn a lot later, and give him the glowing red gem. He'll go underground and you may now call down the Hut of Brown. Talk to the hut, make sure you're not near it or it will crush you. Talk to it while it's down, again making sure you're not near it, and tell it the rhyme. If the correct rhyme doens't show up, shame on you because that means you didn't talk to anybody about it and maybe not anything. If Hut of Brown isn't listed go ask people about Baba Yaga and her hut. If you do see Hut of brown as an option click it and you may enter. To your disfortune, as soon as you enter Baba Yaga freezes you and turns you into a toad. She gets the idea of eating mandrake instead of.. well you and sends you off to get the mandrake root. The rules are.. get the mandrake at exactly midnight, and bring it back right away. If you fall asleep (sleep all night) you will die. If you pick up the mandrake root before midnight.. you die. So stick to the rules. There's only two. Go to the healer and buy some undead unguent. It's a bit pricey but if you don't buy it you'll die, so it's a good bargain. Locate the graveyard, see that red root thing? That's the mandrake root. Go pick it up. No don't! You'll die. Once you know your way to the graveyward head to town. Wait until midnight. Check the clock thing, if it says it's the middle of the night it's time to head out. Ok, ready? Put on your undead unguent and go to the graveyard. Are you sure it's midnight? If so pick up the mandrake root and bring it back to Baba Yaga. Ahhh.. Fantastic. "Hey! What was my prize!" you say. Oh that's real simple. You weren't eaten. Plus you got a few experience and puzzle points.

Obviously very heavily adventure game-focused. You have to find a specific thing, and you have a specific way to do it. Typical adventure game stuff.

 

[suejak]

Here's an item you need to beat the game: (Don't remember how you know you need it until the end of the game).

E - Obtaining the Dispel Potion

Find a White Stag in the forest. Chase it, but don't hurt it. It will lead you to a tree. Walk up to the tree. Holy Sishkabob. Something came out of the tree and started talking. "Are you one with the forest?" she say. YES you answer. Now do it. Say yes. She will send you off to find a special seed. I'll make it real simple for you. If you find a bunch of flowers spitting something you've found it. Now for the tough part. You have to GET it. This will of course ruin the flower's game of catch, but The Dryad really wants this seed. Fork in the road! !Fighter!: Thrfow rocks at the seed, NOT the flowers!!! After a while of practicing you'll knock the seed out of the air, and pick it up. It's kinda hard to learn but you need to throw the rock a little bit near the flower currently holding the seed. It takes practice, don't bother me about it. !Magic User!: This should be real simple for you to figure out. Just cast fetch spell. You won't get it first try. or second try. Or third try either.. You'll be practicing fetch spell for a while. Eventually you'll catch that raskly seed. !Thief!: Just climb that rock thing, and catch the seed (put your hand on the flower currently holding the seed).

 

[suejak]

Here's an example from QfG2:

You wake up to find the Fire Elemental raging outside. You have until Day 7

to get rid of it before it destroys the city. You can take a few brushes with the flaming one, but it's best to keep your distance. "Use incense" and move up and into the alley. Once inside, "put down lamp" or "drop lamp", and then "use water" on the Fire Elemental. Boom. Magic Lamp. (20)

Hope you have a lamp, incense, and water or there is no way to beat this puzzle. I mean quest.

Time to get ready for the Air Elemental. If you've spoken to Keapon and

Aziza about this, you'll know to use Earth to stop it, and you'll need a Bellows to contain it. To get the earth you need, either "buy pot of dirt" from Lasham, who'll give it to you for free, or ask Keapon about "fooler's earth", who'll also give it to you for free. You can also buy a cloth bag and fill it with sand from the desert. At any rate, you need one of those items. To get the Bellows, go to the Weapon Shop. If you haven't beaten him in arm-wrestling already, now's the time to do so. Once you do, "take bellows", and he'll give them to you (7).

Lot of stuff you NEED to beat these monsters. And you can't just fight em either.

Fuck, every one of these elementals is a puzzle. Hope you asked the right guy -- er, NPC -- for the solution!

 

[ghostdog]

B - The Healer's Ring​

This is really simple. You really positively want me to ruin it for you??? I'm warning you!!! Ok. If you really do need help read on. First pick up a rock and throw it at the pterosaur (It's Pteresa, Pterry's girlfriend!). It will fly away. Is that all you needed!? If not read on. !Thieves!: Now climb the tree, and pick up the ring in the nest. !Magic Users!: Magic Users must cast the fetch spell. !Fighters!: Fighters have to throw rocks at the nest, and it will fall down.​

It gets even more adventure-gamey: you probably don't even know why you want that ring! You get it and hold on to it until you know where to use it.

Obviously you haven't played the game.

The ring you described is found outside the Healer's hut. If you talk to the healer she'll tell you she lost it and to keep an eye for it. So you're given a quest to find it and in fact it's just a SIDE QUEST, since all you get are some potions for a reward.

You can find the ring either by climbing the tree and searching the nest (climbing skill), or by throwing a rock at the nest (throwing skill), or by using the fetch spell.

Then there are many that DON'T change depending on your class./

Ok the talking skull won't let you in, eh? He wants eyes.​

Have you visited the Frost Giant warrior, Brauggi Barter? Well give the huge freak fifty apples so his people won't starve to death. He'll give you a glowing red gem. Can you guess what you do with that gem? No, don't fence it to Boris. Go back to the talking skull, who's name you'll learn a lot later, and give him the glowing red gem. He'll go underground and you may now call down the Hut of Brown. Talk to the hut, make sure you're not near it or it will crush you. Talk to it while it's down, again making sure you're not near it, and tell it the rhyme. If the correct rhyme doens't show up, shame on you because that means you didn't talk to anybody about it and maybe not anything. If Hut of Brown isn't listed go ask people about Baba Yaga and her hut. If you do see Hut of brown as an option click it and you may enter. To your disfortune, as soon as you enter Baba Yaga freezes you and turns you into a toad. She gets the idea of eating mandrake instead of.. well you and sends you off to get the mandrake root. The rules are.. get the mandrake at exactly midnight, and bring it back right away. If you fall asleep (sleep all night) you will die. If you pick up the mandrake root before midnight.. you die. So stick to the rules. There's only two. Go to the healer and buy some undead unguent. It's a bit pricey but if you don't buy it you'll die, so it's a good bargain. Locate the graveyard, see that red root thing? That's the mandrake root. Go pick it up. No don't! You'll die. Once you know your way to the graveyward head to town. Wait until midnight. Check the clock thing, if it says it's the middle of the night it's time to head out. Ok, ready? Put on your undead unguent and go to the graveyard. Are you sure it's midnight? If so pick up the mandrake root and bring it back to Baba Yaga. Ahhh.. Fantastic. "Hey! What was my prize!" you say. Oh that's real simple. You weren't eaten. Plus you got a few experience and puzzle points.​

Obviously very heavily adventure game-focused. You have to find a specific thing, and you have a specific way to do it. Typical adventure game stuff.

Oh yeah, dealing with Baba Yaga is in fact another sidequest that's not mandatory to finish the game.

As for the quest itself, you can barter with various goods with the giant to get the gem and you can get the mandrake even without the repel undead potion with good enough sneaking and some luck.



So you just mentioned 2 sidequests where you need to find some things in order to get some reward. Bravo.


The ONLY mandatory puzzles for the game are when you find the prince (which can also be completed with various ways) when you get spores for the dryad and when you deal with the brigands in the end.

You can also do many other optional stuff, like robbing the houses of the town and fencing the goods, learning all the spells and get a bonus one from the resident wizard, kill a shitload of goblins, brigands, trolls, monsters, (or sneak past them, or calm them with your calm spell) uncover a conspiracy within the town...


So yeah, the game is an adventure/RPG hybrid with equal parts of both and it's not mostly an adventure with mostly puzzles.


It's in fact much more of a RPG than most games that claim to be RPGs recently.

 

[suejak]

B - The Healer's Ring​

This is really simple. You really positively want me to ruin it for you??? I'm warning you!!! Ok. If you really do need help read on. First pick up a rock and throw it at the pterosaur (It's Pteresa, Pterry's girlfriend!). It will fly away. Is that all you needed!? If not read on. !Thieves!: Now climb the tree, and pick up the ring in the nest. !Magic Users!: Magic Users must cast the fetch spell. !Fighters!: Fighters have to throw rocks at the nest, and it will fall down.​

It gets even more adventure-gamey: you probably don't even know why you want that ring! You get it and hold on to it until you know where to use it.

Obviously you haven't played the game.

The ring you described is found outside the Healer's hut. If you talk to the healer she'll tell you she lost it and to keep an eye for it. So you're given a quest to find it and in fact it's just a SIDE QUEST, since all you get are some potions for a reward.

You can find the ring either by climbing the tree and searching the nest (climbing skill), or by throwing a rock at the nest (throwing skill), or by using the fetch spell.

Holy fuck, are you serious? I grew up with this game. I love it. Anyway, point is, fuck you.

The ring described is often found before one speaks to the healer, because it's in front of her house and it flashes. It is one of those things that people tend to find before they know what it means. It was also the first example of a multi-solution quest (i.e., one solution for each class) in the walkthrough.

I just told you how you can get the ring, dumbass.

It's not a side-quest; it's a Thing To Do In Quest For Glory. And it's a puzzle that different classes solve differently, and puzzles like that are why this game has always been billed as "three games in one".

Then there are many that DON'T change depending on your class./

Ok the talking skull won't let you in, eh? He wants eyes.​

Have you visited the Frost Giant warrior, Brauggi Barter? Well give the huge freak fifty apples so his people won't starve to death. He'll give you a glowing red gem. Can you guess what you do with that gem? No, don't fence it to Boris. Go back to the talking skull, who's name you'll learn a lot later, and give him the glowing red gem. He'll go underground and you may now call down the Hut of Brown. Talk to the hut, make sure you're not near it or it will crush you. Talk to it while it's down, again making sure you're not near it, and tell it the rhyme. If the correct rhyme doens't show up, shame on you because that means you didn't talk to anybody about it and maybe not anything. If Hut of Brown isn't listed go ask people about Baba Yaga and her hut. If you do see Hut of brown as an option click it and you may enter. To your disfortune, as soon as you enter Baba Yaga freezes you and turns you into a toad. She gets the idea of eating mandrake instead of.. well you and sends you off to get the mandrake root. The rules are.. get the mandrake at exactly midnight, and bring it back right away. If you fall asleep (sleep all night) you will die. If you pick up the mandrake root before midnight.. you die. So stick to the rules. There's only two. Go to the healer and buy some undead unguent. It's a bit pricey but if you don't buy it you'll die, so it's a good bargain. Locate the graveyard, see that red root thing? That's the mandrake root. Go pick it up. No don't! You'll die. Once you know your way to the graveyward head to town. Wait until midnight. Check the clock thing, if it says it's the middle of the night it's time to head out. Ok, ready? Put on your undead unguent and go to the graveyard. Are you sure it's midnight? If so pick up the mandrake root and bring it back to Baba Yaga. Ahhh.. Fantastic. "Hey! What was my prize!" you say. Oh that's real simple. You weren't eaten. Plus you got a few experience and puzzle points.​

Obviously very heavily adventure game-focused. You have to find a specific thing, and you have a specific way to do it. Typical adventure game stuff.

Oh yeah, dealing with Baba Yaga is in fact another sidequest that's not mandatory to finish the game.

As for the quest itself, you can barter with various goods with the giant to get the gem and you can get the mandrake even without the repel undead potion with good enough sneaking and some luck.

Um, you have to defeat Baba Yaga to beat the game. And how do you beat her? Well, you use the magic mirror. Hey, an inventory puzzle. Nice.

So you just mentioned 2 sidequests where you need to find some things in order to get some reward. Bravo.

No, I mentioned two puzzles. Which is what this discussion is about. Puzzles. Read my posts and comprehend them or I'm dropping you from the convo.

The ONLY mandatory puzzles for the game are when you find the prince (which can also be completed with various ways) when you get spores for the dryad and when you deal with the brigands in the end.

You know that you have to turn Baba Yaga into a frog to beat the game, right? Anyway, this discussion isn't about "are all parts of the game mandatory?" It's: "is this game full of puzzles?" And the answer to that question is, obviously. Unless you are you. Sucks for you, I guess.

Compare QfG to an RPG that says, "We need you to get the Wand of Truth for us from the Cave of Enemies!" And then you go kill all the enemies or do a speech-check on them. In this game, you'd have to take the magic seeds from your inventory and grow a vine and climb the vine into the top part of the cave and then steal the wand. Assuming you're a thief or w/e.

You can also do many other optional stuff, like robbing the houses of the town and fencing the goods, learning all the spells and get a bonus one from the resident wizard, kill a shitload of goblins, brigands, trolls, monsters, (or sneak past them, or calm them with your calm spell) uncover a conspiracy within the town...

Are you under the impression that I said "optional" at some point in my post?

Those are Things To Do in Quest For Glory, yes. Most of them, save the shitty simplistic combat, involve puzzles and puzzle-like problems. Try breaking into a house without going about things "properly". It ain't Baldur's Gate hide-in-shadows rolls or a Skyrim FPS sneak-up. You're gonna be dying a lot figuring out what you can and can't do.

So yeah, the game is an adventure/RPG hybrid with equal parts of both and it's not mostly an adventure with mostly puzzles.

You have yet to prove that a SINGLE THING in the game is not a puzzle. You haven't even claimed that. You just said that not everything is mandatory, and therefore the game is not full of puzzles. What's mandatory has never even been a part of the discussion.

By the way, the Coles said in their interview that QfG was 70% adventure game. I know reading ain't your thing, but you should read it.

It's in fact much more of a RPG than most games that claim to be RPGs recently.

Dumbass.

 

[ghostdog]

Haha you are an obvious moron suejak.

I just described multiple actions depending on skills, so no, it's not "all puzzles"

By your idiotic definition Fallout is also "all puzzles"

And no, defeating Baba Yaga isn't mandatory to finish the game, you can still forget the magic mirror and go straight to the castle.

Now stop shitting this thread with your bullshit and fuck off.

 

[suejak]

It is an ADVENTURE GAME with STATS. The problems you're solving are largely inventory or point-and-click puzzles that sometimes include a preliminary step of clicking on a wall several times to increase your climbing skill enough to carry on with the next step in the designer-specified path to solving the puzzle.

I didn't GIVE a definition for "puzzle", but if I were to do so, an adventure game puzzle would be a problem requiring specific inventory items or specific steps accomplished in a point-and-click or parser-based fashion, in an order obviously intended by the designer. For example, you need to use the dispel potion on the brigand leader. Click inventory, click item, click use. Or type "use potion on brigand leader," in the EGA version. With the the thief, you climb a rock and click on the plant. Or type "catch seed" or whatever. Ain't much to it and that ain't a skillcheck against your Agility. It's classic adventure game stuff. And that's 70% of the game! I mean, if you ask the designers anyway. I guess we should be asking you instead.

Fallout is a CRPG that includes elements of adventure games, a legacy it certainly inherits. It has a couple of inventory puzzles, usually ones with combat-based alternatives. Here are the main differences that make Fallout a CRPG: general RARITY OF INVENTORY PUZZLES, wide applicability of items, lack of "what-do-i-do-here" head-scratcher gameplay, emphasis on obvious choice-making instead of trying to figure out what parts of the world to use your inventory items on to advance the plot, prominence of combat, prominence of experience points for quest-completion, stat-point allocation, dialogue skill-checks, etc.

Many many items in QfG have one specific correct use, and even if there are other uses ("sell item"), they are very limited in number and not very satisfying. Similarly, most problems in the game have just a couple of solutions at most, and almost all of them are inventory-based, rarely combat-based, and almost never dialogue-based.

I'm going to concede the Baba Yaga point for two reasons: 1) I don't remember, and my gut says you're right; 2) It's IRRELEVANT because it still requires an inventory puzzle. Which is what this discussion is about: the prominence of traditional Sierra-style adventure game puzzles in QfG.