KickStarter Hero-U: Rogue to Redemption - adventure-RPG from the creators of Quest for Glory

[7hm]

RPGs have always been heavily linked with adventure games. Traditional dungeon crawlers are filled with mandatory adventure game style puzzles. Does that mean we call Wizardry 8 an RPG / Adventure hybrid?

QFG just went a little harder on the adventure puzzle side of things and a little lighter on the RPG side of things. Still very happy to call it an RPG.

In any case most games straddle the boundaries between genres instead of being perfect examples of a type.

 

[suejak]

Are you saying that you don't agree that QfG is mainly an adventure game when the designers themselves said that it was 70% adventure, 30% RPG?

That's a valid position, but it just seems odd.

Anyway, this discussion wasn't even about that; it's about whether QfG is full of puzzles. The other guy said there were "few puzzles". I linked to walkthroughs listing inventory puzzles. He claimed that this was normal RPG gameplay and 95% of the game is "optional" (except for the sparse main trunk of the game, which relies on... inventory puzzles...).

I dunno, QfG is obviously "full of adventure game puzzles." That's all the discussion was about.

 

[taxalot]

Jesus fuck, what does it matter which category the game falls into ? Do you guys have some kind of compulsive disorder ?

 

[suejak]

Again, the discussion is about whether the game is full of puzzles or not. Not what genre it is.

 

[ghostdog]

No the discussion here is where you're full of shit or not, and yes, you're full of shit.

QFG isn't all puzzls, there's a shit ton of other things to do except solving puzzles and anyone who's played the game knows that.

 

[Infinitron]

No the discussion here is where you're full of shit or not, and yes, you're full of shit.

QFG isn't all puzzls, there's a shit ton of other things to do except solving puzzles and anyone who's played the game knows that.

I don't see how he's full of shit. Games like Ultima VII or PS:T have been accused of being "adventure games in RPG clothing" and they definitely have less puzzles than QFG.

 

[suejak]

To me, one of the most telling things about the games is that you can seldom choose the most straightforward option: fighting through an obstacle. If you try to fight the Frost Giant, for example, he just straight kills you. No stat check there. You can't choose to kill Baba Yaga. She just kills you -> death screen. Same with the Antwerp.

Also, ghostdog claimed that you can bargain with the Frost Giant. I don't think that's true. As nearly as I can tell, you have to give him 50 apples or ignore him altogether.

 

[ghostdog]

*about the ice giant, you can certainly barter with him with any kind of food you have in your possession. I didn't give him apples, but vegetables. tomato... potato, I know.


Infinitron,

All puzzles =/= more puzzles than PST

and PST has been "accused" of being adventure gvame-like because of the importance of story and conversations in the game --aspects that are associated with adventure games-- so puzzles have nothing to do with it.

So it's a question of definitions. Does focus on story make an adventure game ? Not really. Does the existence of puzzles make an adventure game ? Not really. It's a combination of these aspects and others and how they exist within the game.

As I said I just played QFG a month ago and it has very few puzzles compared to adventure games. I spent little time thinking about the 5-6 puzzles that are in the game and how to solve them. The vast majority of time was spent honing my skills, fighting enemies and exploring. There were multiple solutions to most situations according to your skills, class-specific things to do, and many optional stuff you don't need to do in order to finish the game.



Anyway, I will debate no longer about the definition of RPG, adventure and puzzles. I think QFG to be an adventure/RPG hybrind and I don't give a fuck about percentages.

.

 

[suejak]

* http://questforglory.wikia.com/wiki/Vegetable
* http://questforglory.wikia.com/wiki/Small_apple

Nah, it has to be apples. You remember wrong. There aren't even potatoes in the game -- just generic "vegetables".

Anyway, I'm literally replaying QfG 1 EGA right now as a thief. It would be cool if you could mention what "six puzzles" you think there are in this game. So far I've been told to fetch a seed that I have to figure out how to get; I've picked the mandrake from the graveyard in daytime only to have it shrivel up in my hands (not sure if it ever comes back); I've eaten mysterious mushrooms and been killed by them instantly (not sure why I have these mushrooms anyway); I've done the thief sign to the thieves in the alley to avoid being instantly killed by them (no choice to fight them); I've been instantly killed by the Dragon's Breath drink in the tavern; I've been beaten up by the Thieves' Guild ogre; I've been instantly killed by the Thieves' Guild leader by accidentally walking in front of the daggers he's throwing at his dartboard. I'll come back and post some more cool puzzle-like stuff (i.e., "Do the right thing or lose.") when I make some more progress.

I also never said "all puzzles". Try a ctrl+F on this page for that phrase.

I mean, I know it's obvious that you're wrong, but it's satisfying to rub it in.
Best part of this game so far is drawing out a map in MS Paint. Ballin.

 

[suejak]

Just broke into the old lady's house:

* Have to figure out how to keep the cat off of you or instant death
* The cat will turn into a giant leopard thing if you kick it or ignore it, instant death
* Have to figure out how to maneuver AROUND the cat
* Don't go up the stairs or instant death
* Have to find the things of value in the house; aren't allowed to take anything except things of value.

Then found an ogre:

* Couldn't kill it. Had to run. Not sure what to do here yet.

Then found Erasmus's house:

* Gargoyle guard asks THREE QUESTIONS.
* Wrong answer for "favourite colour" got me sent back to the front
* "WHAT IS THE THIEVES' PASSWORD?" Gave the right answer and got "NO THIEVES ALLOWED" -- was sent back to the entrance
* The answer "don't know" got me past this... quest!
* Once in the house, you have to go straight to the wizard or he sends you back to the entrance.

Then found the frost giant:

* He asks for fruit
* I offered him 50 vegetables. He "looked at my offer in disgust."
* Apples are the only fruit in the game that can be carried in your inventory.

 

[ghostdog]

So, when you do stupid things that you're (usually warned no to do) that kill you, it's a puzzle. Getting killed in various humorous ways is just another QFG feature. Stick your lockpick into your nose, with very low lockpick skill, you stick it too far and die of brain hemorrhage,... ITS A PUZZLE !

Seriously, give up this shit.

 

[Infinitron]

ghostdog
I think suejak's point here is that "set piece" situations aren't a feature of true RPGs. Every challenge you face in an RPG has to be part of a generic system with universal rules. Set piece situations with situation-specific solutions = puzzles.

 

[suejak]

Infinitron has it right.

You have to figure out how to rob the house without getting caught, and there is only one way to do it. Plus the cat blocks your path, so you have to figure out how to get around it. Certainly feels like a puzzle to me.

Otherwise, instant death -> death screen is definitely a Sierra adventure game feature, not an RPG feature. You also aren't warned that you'll lose; you don't know that you'll lose until you actually lose, which is a characteristic of Sierra adventure games complained about by Ron Gilbert in his essay "Why Adventure Games Suck." For example, you'll get robbed or instantly killed in the alley if you're a non-thief. The only way to know that is to go into the alley at night. Then you can reload or deal with having no money. Personally, I don't mind it.

Stick your lockpick into your nose, with very low lockpick skill, you stick it too far and die of brain hemorrhage,... ITS A PUZZLE !

More bullshit, misinformation and lies. Once again your claims have been put to the test:

Verdict: bold-faced lie.

It's clear that you're scraping the bottom of your bag of tricks.

 

[7hm]

ghostdog
I think suejak's point here is that "set piece" situations aren't a feature of true RPGs. Every challenge you face in an RPG has to be part of a generic system with universal rules. Set piece situations with situation-specific solutions = puzzles.

Not every challenge in an RPG has to be part of a generic system. Puzzles are a feature of RPGs. A large difference between an RPG and an adventure game is that in adventure games puzzles are the entirety of the game.

I think suejack is right. QFG is more adventure game than RPG. Still very comfortable calling it an RPG (with heavy adventure game elements) though.

I don't even understand how someone can argue against that actually.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Verdict: bold-faced lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HuS-2y9I3mY#t=266s

Retards gonna retard. Fuck off and die suejack. What a fucking waste of oxygen.

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe we need a new name for the types of challenges you typically faced in the Quest for Glory games. A new category - more "organic" than the "puzzles" in classic adventure games, but still contextual, set-piece, situation-specific.

 

[suejak]

Verdict: bold-faced lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HuS-2y9I3mY#t=266s

Retards gonna retard. Fuck off and die suejack. What a fucking waste of oxygen.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[Infinitron]

Not every challenge in an RPG has to be part of a generic system. Puzzles are a feature of RPGs. A large difference between an RPG and an adventure game is that in adventure games puzzles are the entirety of the game.

I think suejack is right. QFG is more adventure game than RPG. Still very comfortable calling it an RPG (with heavy adventure game elements) though.

I don't even understand how someone can argue against that actually.

You're right. Not every challenge, but most of them. The more set-pieces you have, the less the game feels like an RPG.

 

[suejak]

Maybe we need a new name for the types of challenges you typically faced in the Quest for Glory games. A new category - more "organic" than the "puzzles" in classic adventure games, but still contextual, set-piece, situation-specific.

I don't really know what's "organic" about them except that your attempts at solving them sometimes fail if your skill numbers are too low.

For example, the "get a seed from a seed plant" >quest< is solvable by throwing rocks (requires lots of throwing practice) or climbing the wall (although attempting to do this and failing yields the text box: "Perhaps there is another way to achieve your objective"). Alternatively, if you chose the magic user and bought the Fetch spell, you can use Fetch -- spells in this game are basically inventory items like any other.

It's interesting how typically adventure-gamey the spells are too. You use spells on specific items in specific situations in order to solve the >quest< in the prescribed way. Fetch, open, whatever -- you can't open things they deem "unopenable," you can't fetch things they deem "unfetchable," but you can certainly open and fetch the handful of things they intended you to be able to open and fetch if you're a Magic User.

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe we need a new name for the types of challenges you typically faced in the Quest for Glory games. A new category - more "organic" than the "puzzles" in classic adventure games, but still contextual, set-piece, situation-specific.

I don't really know what's "organic" about them except that your attempts at solving them sometimes fail if your skill numbers are too low.

For example, the "get a seed from a seed plant" >quest< is solvable by throwing rocks (requires lots of throwing practice) or climbing the wall (although attempting to do this and failing yields the text box: "Perhaps there is another way to achieve your objective"). Alternatively, if you chose the magic user and bought the Fetch spell, you can use Fetch -- spells in this game are basically inventory items like any other.

It's interesting how typically adventure-gamey the spells are too. You use spells on specific items in specific situations in order to solve the >quest< in the prescribed way. Fetch, open, whatever -- you can't open things they deem "unopenable," you can't fetch things they deem "unfetchable," but you can certainly open and fetch the handful of things they intended you to be able to open and fetch if you're a Magic User.

Well, compare those to "use rubber-chicken-with-a-pully-in-the-middle on cable"

 

[Jaesun]

Or Monkey Wrench.

 

[ghostdog]

More bullshit, misinformation and lies. Once again your claims have been put to the test:

Verdict: bold-faced lie.

It's clear that you're scraping the bottom of your bag of tricks.

Your moronic raging and cry for lies is amusing.

It doesn't happen always, there's a chance for it to happen. It could be specific to the vga version (but I doubt it) :

EDIT:
Yep, it's in the EGA version too, according the guide at gamefaqs.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I'm pretty sure it depends on your lockpick skill. That is, if it's too low you die.

 

[suejak]

Yah dood, I was being silly. Kool, though.

Maybe we need a new name for the types of challenges you typically faced in the Quest for Glory games. A new category - more "organic" than the "puzzles" in classic adventure games, but still contextual, set-piece, situation-specific.

I don't really know what's "organic" about them except that your attempts at solving them sometimes fail if your skill numbers are too low.

For example, the "get a seed from a seed plant" >quest< is solvable by throwing rocks (requires lots of throwing practice) or climbing the wall (although attempting to do this and failing yields the text box: "Perhaps there is another way to achieve your objective"). Alternatively, if you chose the magic user and bought the Fetch spell, you can use Fetch -- spells in this game are basically inventory items like any other.

It's interesting how typically adventure-gamey the spells are too. You use spells on specific items in specific situations in order to solve the >quest< in the prescribed way. Fetch, open, whatever -- you can't open things they deem "unopenable," you can't fetch things they deem "unfetchable," but you can certainly open and fetch the handful of things they intended you to be able to open and fetch if you're a Magic User.

Well, compare those to "use rubber-chicken-with-a-pully-in-the-middle on cable"

Haha, well, I don't get your point at all, but that doesn't sound any less logical than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OW19ivNcR7A#t=286s

 

[suejak]

I'm pretty sure it depends on your lockpick skill. That is, if it's too low you die.

I guess nobody reads your posts :/